A Practical Question for Secret Rapture, Pre-tribulationists

What I mean is the Holy Spirit will not be indwelling as He is at the present with the Bride. In the OT, the Holy Spirit came upon people. The Bride has the Holy Spirit indwelling. Once the Bride is raptured, the Holy Spirit will leave, but will once again come upon people as in the OT. (I also asked my pastor about this in SS this morning & he said the same thing.) The Holy Spirit will not be dwelling upon the Earth once the Bride is taken away. Also what is keeping the spirit of anti-christ at bay right now is the presence of the Holy Spirit on Earth via the Bride.

To address the "two routes to salvation theory above," or whatever term was used. That is not what I implied or said. The OT saints received redemption through the Promise of the Redeemer, or looking forward to Messiah, the Sacrificial Lamb. The Church has received Salvation through the Sacrifice of the Lamb, God's Son. Both OT & NT receive Salvation in the same way, the acceptance of the Sacrificial Lamb. One was faith in the Promise to come. Since Christ, faith in the Promise Fulfilled. The Cross is Salvation either way---looking forward to the Cross, or afterwards, looking back at the Cross. Same Event, different vantage point.

 

The secret rapture is totally unbiblical and is another example of how confusing and distorted that dispensationalism is. Baptists have historically taught abd believed in the second advent of Christ without all the minutia of dispensatioalism

 

BrianT,

In your view when and where does Christ convene at the Judgment Seat of Christ? This is a judgment of the saints that Amil's sweep under their theological rug. Only saints will be evaluated for our 'works'/ activities while we were here on the earth.

 

BrianT,

In my view when Christ comes for the church in the rapture He takes the saints home to evaluate our performance while on the earth. [I Cor. 3:11-15.

Oh, I do agree with you that Christ comes with His saints from Heaven as He raises the saved dead from their graves, plus any saints living at the time of His coming.

 

Ken, it's called the Bema seat of Christ (the judgment for Believers).... Different than Great White Throne Judgment.

Good thread:

http://www.foigm.org/IMG/judseat.htm

 

There is not one final judgment at the end of the age as some teachers suggest. The judgment of the lost is referred to in Revelation 20:11-15. These people will be judged for their ungodly, ‘works' as noted in verse {13} The unsaved will be judged after the 1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth as documented in Revelation 20:5.

God in distinguishing between the judgment of the saints and the one above spoken about, speaks of the judgment of the saints as being called the Judgment Seat of Christ. If there was only one final judgment God would not have named them by different titles. We are not judged for salvation because Romans 8:1 tells us there is no judgment to those who are in Christ. Plus, Romans 8 concludes by saying there can be no separation from Christ for those who love and are found in Him. What we will be judged for is our ‘works.' I Corinthians 3:12-15 tells us that some Christians will be saved by ‘the skin on their teeth.' And so Paul uses the words, ‘ . . . he shall be saved so as through fire.' The Bible says that it will be revealed by fire, (vs. 13) and in another passage we are told that God is a consuming fire. [Hebrews 12:29] and that true ministers of the Gospel are spoken of as ‘a flame of fire.' [Hebrews 1:7] True ministers of the Lord have been touched, as it were, by the flame of God. Also, in II Thessalonians 1:7-9 the Lord will at the Second Coming ‘In flaming fire taking vengeance on those who know not God, and obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.' Notice in each of these verses God is spoken of as a flaming fire. The Apostle Paul knew that He also would stand before the judgment of the saints and that his ministry would be evaluated by God. ‘Every man's work shall be made manifest.' [I Cor. 3:13] Some Christians will live undisciplined lives and will have built into their lives or ‘good works' what Paul calls useless building material like, ‘wood, hay and stubble, while the creme de la creme of the kingdom will come forth from this judgment as valuable as ‘ . . . gold, silver and precious stone.' [3:12] If Christians come forth from the judgment as ‘gold, silver and precious stone they will receive a reward from Christ. If they have lived a somewhat careless life they will receive no reward.

Another reference to God rewarding His people according to their ‘works' and of rewarding them for their faithfulness is found in Revelation 22:12 as He concludes the canon of Scripture. ‘And, behold, I come quickly; [I Thess. 4:17] and My reward is with Me, to give every man {person} according as His ‘work' shall be.'

Salvation is totally be grace as indicated in Ephesians 2:8 & 9. We cannot do anything to achieve our eternal salvation initially, or after our justification ministered by God.

Dr. C.I. Scofield, the famous dispensational teacher offers up these observations of His truth.

‘God, in the N.T. Scriptures, offers to the lost, salvation, and for the faithful service of the saved, rewards. The passages are easily distinguished by remembering that salvation is invariably spoken of as a free gift (e.g. John 4:10; Rom.6:23; Eph. 2:8 & 9); while rewards are earned by works (Matt. 10:42; Lk. 19:17; I Cor. 9: 24 & 25; II Tim. 4:7 & 8; Rev. 2:10; 22:12). A further distinction is that salvation is a present possession (Lk. 7:50; John 3:36; 5:24; 6:47, while rewards are a future attainment, to be given at the coming of the Lord (Matt. 16:27; II Tim. 4:8; Rev. 22:12.'

If ‘good works' were not to be understood as being valuable to us and God, there would be no validity to the contemplation of the noteworthy truths written above.

When Christ comes to take His people with Him we will immediately go before this judgment called the Judgment Seat of Christ. [Romans 14:10]

Unequivocally, we are saved by grace, but the other side of the coin is ‘works' and what God has to say about their value to us and to His kingdom.

 

Well somebody sent me a "nasty" little PM stating that the Bible is silent on animals and I should be, too, and my concern over my "dog" was New Age. (I am not mentioning any names, but I think it is a troll who sent the message. That poster is now on my ignore list.)

Just for the record, I don't have a dog.

In Revelation 19, it speaks of Jesus riding a white horse and His armies from heaven following Him upon white horses.

There are horses in heaven, then. And probably pets, too. No New Age philosophy here, Folks.

 

Arf-Arf! MEOOOOOOOOOOOOOW! MOOOOOOOOOOO!

 

Maybe I don't understand your question. I believe there will probably be only one judgment, at Christ's return. All men will be judged on works, but the works will not be the basis of a saint's salvation. I know scripture talks in a few places about judgment, but I don't see a need to separate it into different times, except when trying to fit it into an overly-complex pre-defined eschatology.

Rom 14:10 doesn't say anything about *when* we will stand before the judgment seat.

Rev 11:18 says the time to judge the saints doesn't happen until sometime *after* the 7th trumpet.

Brian

 

Sorry, no pets allowed.</font>[/QUOTE]Aw, c'mon, Dr. Bob, you never heard the classic song "Ole Shep?"

"Now ole Shep is gone where th good doggies go
No more with ole Shep will I roam
An' if dogs have a Heaven, there's one thing I know
Ole Shep has a wonderful home "

If that song doesn't bring a tear to the eye & a choke to ya, then nothin' will....

 

If God wanted us to think there would only be one final judgment He might have spoken of it as The Final Judgment Day. Instead, the spoke of the Judgment Seat of Christ and the Great White Throne Judgment. There is a reason why He calls them by different names. Let the light in.

 

The problem is that words are not taken literally in connection with the two Judgments, one for saints and the latter one for sinners.

When words are spiritualized and symbolized and in effect neutralized, we come up with people who teach about 'a former rain' and a 'latter rain' and ending of Christian church era. Should I believe in this view too?