Charismatic Take over of Baptist Churches

God's Word must be preached clearly & systamatically or people will fall into error. Too many churches fall into entertainment & game playing. When people tire of this, they look for something new & exciting. Center on strong, loving Biblical preaching, keeping Christ central, the fellowship of the brethren, prayer & the Lord's Supper; and it will strengthen the church...this will either strengthen them if they have true faith, or drive them out to a place they can "play" instead of worship.

 

I wish to play advocate of the devil here for DHK. I've been having an on-going discussion with a Oneness Pentecostal who has deeply studied 1 Corinthians 14 and finds that it totally supports the "gift of tongues."

Before I go further, I state unequivocally that I have studied EVERY SINGLE VERSE referencing the words tongue, tongues, language, and languages. I do not consider myself an expert on the subject, but I do consider myself somewhat knowledgeable on the subject.

That said, if one accepts that there is a tongue of angels, then 1 Corinthians 14 does indeed support its use. For instance, when you come across the verse that says "if I speak in an unknown tongue," it's obviously speaking about the tongues of angels--an unknown tongue to all of us poor, non-understanding humans.

When I come across the verse that says "I speak in tongues more than all of you," it's obvious that Paul is giving us further evidence of the tongues of angels!

When I see "forbid not to speak in tongues," it's obvious that none of us are supposed to tell Magicdar that she can't speak in the tongues of angels!

Again, I'm only playing devil's advocate here; I personally believe there is a complete and utter misinterpretation of "tongues," what is meant by it, and how they are used; and it all falls back to one single, solitary verse in the Bible--and that verse doesn't support a tongue of angels at all.

So Magicdar, I'm going to ask DHK to discuss this with me, with me playing the part of the person supporting the use of the tongues of angels. I hope and pray that you'll read and even give some input.

 

Glad for your questions Don,
First I think that it ought to be pointed out that the words "tongues" and "languages" mean the same thing and are used interchangeably.
Acts 2:4-11
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

The languages of the various people are listed in verses six to eleven. Verse six says, "every man heard them speak in his own language." Verse eleven says, "We do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. These were not heavenly or angelic languages or tongues. They were real, actual known languages. They were languages that were known to others but unknown to the disciples speaking them, thus unknown tongues or other tongues.

1 Cor. 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
This is the only reference I know of that refers to tongues of angels. It could well be argued exactly what those tongues or languages of angels were. How do you think the angels communicated? How did an angel tell Mary that she was going to bear a son, and how did an angel warn Joseph of Herod? What did John see when he was transported to heaven in the book of Revelation? Did he hear the angelic beings singing? If so, what were they singing--something that was intelligent or something that resembled the chaotic confusion of modern day tongues-speaking? How did the angel communicate to John the things that he was explaining to him? Just what are the "tongues of angels?" I do not believe they are some mysterious unintelligible syllables that no one can understand.
Just what are they? Here is what Barnes has to say about it:
. "The language of angels; such as they speak. Were I endowed with the faculty of eloquence and persuasion which we attribute to them; and the power of speaking to any of the human family with the power which they have. The language of angels here seems to be used to denote the highest power of using language, or of the most elevated faculty of eloquence and speech. It is evidently derived from the idea that the angels are superior, in all respects, to men." (Barnes notes)

Going back to 1 Corinthians 14, every time the phrase "unknown tongues" is used, you may notice that the word, "unknown" is in italics. This means the word is not in the Greek, and should not have been translated in the first place. For example, verse two should read: "For he that speaketh in a language speaketh not unto men." Of course they put the adjective in there for the sake of clarity. But it doesn't mean completely unknown. They could have inserted a word like "another" to make better sense. The Biblical gift of tongues would be akin to me going to a nation like Pakistan, not knowing the language, and God miraculously bestowing on me the ability to speak that language, though I had never heard or studied it before. That is the gift of tongues. That is not happening in charismatic churches today. The "unknown tongues"that the Charismatics speak today are not "other languages" nor are they "angelic languages."
The gift of tongues ceased at the end of the first century. When Paul said to "forbid not to speak in tongues." he was speaking to 1st century Christians only. The gift ceased after that. It was no longer needed as the revelation of God was completed with the completion of the Book of Revelation and the entire New Testament. Tongues was a form of revelation, for the entire Word of God was not yet revealed. Today we have the entire, completed Word of God. There is no new revelation; thus no tongues.

I hope I've been of some help,
DHK

 

Wow...this stirred things up eh? First let me start out by saying this. Before I recieved the baptism in the spirit and began to speak in tounges, I prayed long and hard about this because I came from a home where I was taught this is wrong and that these ceased. I literally prayed and asked God to give me wisdom on this and to open my eyes about the whole issue and to literally take my desire away from me if tounges were not a thing I was to have. When I did this, I was literally flipping thru scripture looking for something to read (I do that often) I came across 1Cor. and read the whole thing, as I read it, it was like a light bulb in my head turned on and it was totally clear to me, the more I read the more peace in my heart I had about the gifts in the spirit and after three years of curiosity, I believe God brought me to the decision that this is truely of him and its what I was to do. Shortly after that I recieved it. I assure you this was not an emotional experience. Have you never been mad at satan? I have, when I pray in tounges anger towards the enemy is what I feel and I know that satan will not provide anger in anyone towards himself for this is called HOLY ANGER. Not to mention, you question as to if this was really from God or another source which could only be satan, I believe that if we ask God for truth with a sincere heart he will provide it, that is what I did.

I in fact based and still base my gift of tounges on Cor. Paul rebukes for misusage, he does not tell us not to do it but how to do it properly. I do not believe it has ceased or that any of the gifts have ceased, I don't choose to do this out of disobedience to God's word because I believe God's word supports it. Btw...when Jesus came he himself was perfection, but this world is not perfect and things will not be perfect until Jesus returns and we are in heaven together with Jesus. If I misunderstand the perfection time thing I am sorry. -dar

 

(Stick with us, Magic--we're almost at the crux of the problem here. While I understand what you're saying, I pray that you read this exchange with an open mind and heart.)

DHK, you basically skipped over the whole point of the matter. God is not a liar, and I don't believe Paul is, either.

Why, then, would Paul say he spoke in the tongue of angels in the first place?

And then go on throughout 1 Cor 14 to further substantiate speaking in that tongue?

 

Originally posted by MagicDar: (Emphasis Mine)

Wow...this stirred things up eh? First let me start out by saying this. Before I recieved the baptism in the spirit and began to speak in tounges, I prayed long and hard about this because I came from a home where I was taught this is wrong and that these ceased. I literally prayed and asked God to give me wisdom on this and to open my eyes about the whole issue and to literally take my desire away from me if tounges were not a thing I was to have. When I did this, I was literally flipping thru scripture looking for something to read (I do that often) I came across 1Cor. and read the whole thing, as I read it, it was like a light bulb in my head turned on and it was totally clear to me, the more I read the more peace in my heart I had about the gifts in the spirit and after three years of curiosity, I believe God brought me to the decision that this is truely of him and its what I was to do. Shortly after that I recieved it. I assure you this was not an emotional experience. Have you never been mad at satan? I have, when I pray in tounges anger towards the enemy is what I feel and I know that satan will not provide anger in anyone towards himself for this is called HOLY ANGER. Not to mention, you question as to if this was really from God or another source which could only be satan, I believe that if we ask God for truth with a sincere heart he will provide it, that is what I did.

I in fact based and still base my gift of tounges on Cor. Paul rebukes for misusage, he does not tell us not to do it but how to do it properly. I do not believe it has ceased or that any of the gifts have ceased, I don't choose to do this out of disobedience to God's word because I believe God's word supports it. Btw...when Jesus came he himself was perfection, but this world is not perfect and things will not be perfect until Jesus returns and we are in heaven together with Jesus. If I misunderstand the perfection time thing I am sorry.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

NOTE: This is not a personal attack on MagicDar, reading through the posts there is a noticable I in charasmatic posts. This post was just handy.

[ June 27, 2001: Message edited by: Theological Neophyte ]

 

Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels; that is, though I had the gift of tongues, or speaking divers languages in the highest measure and most exalted degree; could I preach and pray like an angel, discourse and talk beyond the rate of any mortal man, and have not the grace of love and charity; alas! what is all this to God, who is not taken with a noisy sound, as children are with a musical instrument! (Burkitt)

I am not entirely sure what you are getting at Don. Paul said, Though I speak with the "tongues of men," referring to the gift of tongues, and with the tongues of angels, which almost every commentator I have read, such as Burkitt above, and Barnes which I previously quoted, believe to be a reference to a form of communication "beyond the rate of any mortal man." There were three men that stood before Abraham. One of them was our Lord incarnate; the other two were angels. What type of bodies did they have? What types of minds? Would not their thinking and ability to reason and communicate be far greater than ours, Abraham's or Lot's? I don't believe that the phrase in 1 Cor. 13:1, "tongues...of angels" has anything to do with the Biblical gift of speaking in another language. Paul was saying, "If I had the gift of speaking in other languages, or a more perfected eloquent speech such as the angels do, and still have no love...."
So the point of 1 Corinthians 13:1 is being understood, clarity, eloquence, getting my message out to others. If I go to a foreign mission field and I need another language, and God gives me that, and it is so perfect and eloquent, but I fail to speak it in love, it still will not be heard or understood. The whole point is to be understood.

I Cor. 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
--No man understands the unknown tongue

verse 4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
--an unknown tongue is beneficial only to yourself because the others in the church don't understand you. I doesn't edify them.

Verse 5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
--Paul says I would rather that you prophesy than speak in tongues, because then you can be understood.

Verse 6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
--Here he questions the profitability of tongues, because it cannot be understood. But by giving them revelation from God's Word, knowledge from God's Word, prophesying to them, or teaching them doctrine, they would understand.

Verses 7-9 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
-- "If the trumpet give an uncertain sound..." "So Likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood" Paul puts great emphasis on being understood. The people of Corinth were not being understood through the gift of tongues.

Verses 13,14 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
---In an unknown tongue my understanding is unfruitful.

In verses 15 to 20 Paul urges them to pray, sing, and give thanks with understanding. That would exclude speaking in tongues.

19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
--Paul here is very emphatic also. Consider this. He is saying something like this: I would rather say "Hello, my name is Paul" (5 words of understanding), than 10,000 words of an unknown tongue. How insignificant speaking in tongues becomes in this light! Why? There is no understanding.

20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
--Don't be a child (immature) in this, but in understanding be men (mature), mature enough to teach others by your understanding.

21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
--These two verses are very important, for they give the very reason for the gift of tongues. In verse 21 Paul quotes from Isa.28:11,12. "With men of other tongues...will I speak unto this people." The key phrase here is "this people." Who are these people? Remember it is an Old Testament quotation. He is referring to the nation of Israel. Thus, "With men of other tongues...will I speak to the nation of Israel"
In verse 22 he says "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not" Who specifically? Those that believe not, yes--but taken in context with verse 21--the unbelieving Jew. Tongues was a sign for the unbelieving Jew, and quite frankly I believe that if any person speaks in tongues and there are no unbelieving Jews present, then that in itself makes it unbiblical. It is a sign to the unbelieving Jew.

23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
--The world will think you are "mad," crazy. Why? They have no understanding of what you are saying.

27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
--There must be understanding, thus the need for an interpreter. Otherwise--keep quiet! There must be order--2 or 3 at the most, and that by "course" (order or turn).

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
--Women are not allowed to speak at all in tongues.

37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
Paul is straightforward here. You either acknowledge these things as commandments of the Lord or you don't. If you don't you remain ignorant. (I am sorry to be blunt, I am just quoting the Word of God).

39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
--Verse 39 refers to the believer at Corinth in the first century who did not have the completed or perfected Word of God.
God demands order for He is a God of order and understanding. He wants you to understand His revelation and His love

DHK

 

Replyy to Theo: I didn't take it as a personal attack but I'm not real sure what your point is. The reason I said I was because I was not refering to anyone else. It wasn't a thing all about me, but what God taught me....memememememmeme IIIIIII

HAHAHA sorry that just struck me funny

dar

 

Ok...first of all Cor. does not say women are not to speak in tounges at all, that was definately a personal interpretation that is certainly not biblical. It says women are to remain silent in church, doesn't mean they can't pray in tounges in private.

I'm not convinced in any manner that the gift of tounges is ceased. I believe what Paul was saying is, prophesy is more important than tounges, but does not say to not speak in tounges...in fact says to not forbid it.

-dar

 

Dar,
The discussion of spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12-14 is a discussion set within a local church. Paul was addressing their specific problems, problems related to the local church. In the beginning of chapter 12 he lists the spiritual gifts, and then proceeds to liken the local church to a body, where each person has its own particular gift and place of service. Just as everyone cannot be the "eye" of the body or the local church, so everyone cannot have the gift of tongues in the local church. He ends that chapter by listing the gifts in order of importance. Notice carefully the attention given to numerical order here: "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues" (verse 28). FIRST apostles, SECOND prophets, THIRD teachers, and what is last? Diversities of tongues. What are diversities of tongues? Many different kinds of languages. That is not what you hear in charismatic circles today. Yet they say their tongues is Scriptural and important. Paul says it is the least important of all the gifts. It is a language. In the next verse he says to covet earnestly the best gifts (not tongues), and then he says that he will show you a better way. With that he begins chapter 13, the great chapter on love. The best gift of all is love.
But may I remind you again of verse 28 above, the context is in the church, the local church. "God has set some in the church..."
When you come to chapter 14 you have many references to the local church, because this was a gift given to and for the local church.
Verse 4: "but he that prophesieth edifieth the church."
Verse 5: ... "that the church may receive edifying."
Verse 12: "seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church."
Verse 19: "Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding,"
Verse 23: "If therefore the whole church be come together into one place,"
Verse 34: "Let your women keep silence in the churches:"
Verse 35: "for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

Tongues were never meant for private use. They were meant for public use, in the church, for the benefit of all the members, for all to understand, particularly for the unbelieving Jew, and women were not part of it. This is not a personal interpretation, it is simply what the Bible says. If you can tell me what the meaning of these verses are otherwise, then please do.
You are right in saying that Paul was teaching that prophesying was more important than tongues. He was. And he did say, not to forbid to speak in tongues. But taken in context that exhortation can only apply to first century believers. I Cor. 13:8 says "whether there be tongues they shall cease."
I believe they have, and can demonstrate it from Scripture. But I will leave that for another time.

Keep in the Word
DHK

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MagicDar:
The reason I said I was because I was not refering to anyone else. It wasn't a thing all about me, but what God taught me....memememememmeme IIIIIII
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for not taking it as an attack I did this to point out that it was to a your (IIIII) enjoyment and revelation that this happened, however the gifts of the spirit were given for public use as stated elsewhere above (and in scripture).

 

DHK, allow me to make myself more clear; it's becoming apparent that you haven't been hit with this argument before.

The problem that I see with commentators and commentaries is that they are the interpretations of man. I'm not discouraging their use; in fact, just the opposite. It's important to see what views a whole range of different people have on the same subject. But the final authority is still the Bible.

That said, you pointed out what I was getting at, but without seeing what I was driving at. That's probably my fault. The point is, 1 Corinthians 13:1 says "though I speak with the tongue of angels." Whether I ascribe to Burkitt or Henry or Luther or whoever, the fact of the matter is that Paul did NOT say he spoke with the tongue of angels.

There are 2 points to this (hope you're reading this, Magic; I'm interested to see how you respond to this): Paul also said "though I have all knowledge"; did he? Paul also said "though I give my body to be burned"; did he?

The answer is no, he didn't. Someone at some time latched onto the single phrase in verse 1--tongue of angels--and turned it into something that Paul did, while ignoring what Paul obviously didn't do. This is a contextual error that has since been perpetrated in the name of the Holy Spirit.

If I accept the premise that Paul spoke in the tongue of angels, then I must accept that Paul had all knowledge and gave his body to be burned. If I reject that Paul had all knowledge OR gave his body to be burned, then I MUST reject the premise that Paul spoke in the tongue of angels. No one is allowed to "pick and choose" which scriptures are relevant; either the entire Bible is relevant, or none of it is.

Thus, if Paul didn't give his body to be burned--and he didn't--then Paul did not speak in a "tongue of angels."

2) Let us not forget that "angels" is actually translated "messengers." What exactly is the tongue of messengers? This question is avoided by the Charismatics and Pentecostals, and all those who support the current mis-use of tongues.

The fact of the matter is that the first use of the gift of tongues is described in excruciating detail in Acts 2, and is nothing more than the gift of speaking in a known language--albeit, unknown to the person speaking the language--so that a listening unbeliever may be amazed by the power and glory of God.

THAT defines the mis-use of tongues today. A mis-interpretation and subsequent mis-application of one single verse.

As DHK has pointed out, 1 Corinthians 14 is NOT a substantiation for anyone to speak in a "tongue of angels"; it's a rebuke for the mis-use of the gift of tongues, and therefore should NOT be used as justification to perpetuate its mis-use today.

The gift of tongues was NOT for self-edification or a sign to believers that you've been filled with the Holy Spirit (as it is used in Oneness Pentecostal and other denominations), but for edification and a sign to unbelievers.

Magic, I do not judge anyone's salvation, and am only asking this next question to make you think about something: Why would one continue to speak in a tongue, only to one's own self, knowing full well that scripture says it is a sign for unbelievers?

One answer is that someone is possibly being deceived. Another answer is that possibly someone needs the sign (remember, I said "to one's own self"). I'm sure there are a couple of other answers, but those are the two that pop up first in my mind.

[ June 28, 2001: Message edited by: Don ]

 

I'm a little curious as to why it is automatically assumed that edifying one's self is a "bad" thing according to scripture. Does not reading your bible and praying daily edify one's walk with God on a daily basis? Praying in tounges privately is speaking mysteries to God for edification of your personal walk with Jesus and that is not condemned in Cor. but defined.

1Cor. 14: 1-2 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophesy. For anyone who speaks in a tounge does not speak to men but to God. Indeed no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. Please tell me from the scriptures above how the word tounges is meaning a different language such as German, French, Spanish or any other earthly language that can be learned when it specifically it says no man understands him because he's speaking mysteries to God with his spirit and not to man. There are two purposes for tounges, for the body of Christ and for your personal walk with God.

Paul speaking in tounges is not an issue for me, I get what your saying, but my point is a little different. -Dar

 

"1Cor. 14: 1-2 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophesy. For anyone who speaks in a tounge does not speak to men but to God. Indeed no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. Please tell me from the scriptures above how the word tounges is meaning a different language such as German, French, Spanish or any other earthly language that can be learned when it specifically it says no man understands him because he's speaking mysteries to God with his spirit and not to man. There are two purposes for tounges, for the body of Christ and for your personal walk with God."

Dar,
You must compare Scripture with Scripture. The word tongue means language. In Acts 2:6,8, it plainly says:"Because that every man heard them speak in his own language." "How hear we every man in our own tongue." The two words are interchangeable.

First, the command in 1Cor. 14:1 is to follow the way of love and not tongues.
Secondly, Paul admonishes us to desire spiritual gifts but especially prophesy, not tongues.

Thirdly, Paul explains that the one who speaks in a tongue (another language) does not speak to men (because they cannot understand him--in the same way that you probably would not be able to understand Swahili or Zulu or Punjabi). Therefore he is only speaking to God, because God is the only one understanding him.

Fourth, he utters mysteries with his spirit because the Holy Spirit is enabling him to speak a language previously unknown to him, which is a mystery unto him. He would not otherwise have this knowledge if the Holy Spirit had not revealed it to him. Nowhere does it say that the purpose of tongues is for your own personal walk. Paul does not teach that. Read my previous posts. Tongues was a sign gift given for the local church to be used in public in the local church. Paul was addressing the local church, and in fact, rebuking those who would selfishly keep their gifts to themselves. They were never meant for that purpose.

If you want to be edified, then join a good Bible-believing church where the Word of God is expounded on a regular basis, and be edified by the Word. Be edified by the Word in your own personal devotions as you seek Him in prayer and prayerfully study His Word. Be edified and built up in Him by Godly fellowship with other believers. It is the Word of God, not experiences, that builds us up and draws us nearer to the Lord. May you not only lay hold of This Book, but allow This Book to lay hold of you.
DHK

 

Magic, there's a particular commission that proves that "edifying ourselves" is not the goal:

Luke 24:...that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Keeping it to ourselves is kind of like the story about the talents; the servant who hid his talent in the dirt, and kept it for himself, ultimately was punished by the master.

And then, of course, there's Paul instruction as to what the gift of tongues is for: 1 Cor 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not

Why would a believer need to speak to him or herself in a tongue of angels?

Magic, I humbly and respectfully ask that you re-read all of 1 Corinthians 14, but with the perspective that Paul is rebuking the church of Corinth, not praising it. Please re-read it with that in mind.

 

I think you are all missing the point behind your disagreement. Before you can settle the issue on who is right or wrong about the spiritual gifts, or who is right or wrong about anything, you must first establish what is going to be your Final Authority on the issue. Will be the Word of God, or will it be your personal experience and convictions? Until BOTH sides agree as to what the finaly authority is, niether of you will agree.

MagicDar, please do not take this as a personal offense or affront, but I must challenge you on this one. Please explain where you feel the true authority lies, in scripture or in personal experience.

2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, adn is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for intstruction in righteousness:"

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MagicDar:
The reason I said I was because I was not refering to anyone else. It wasn't a thing all about me, but what God taught me....memememememmeme IIIIIII
dar<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

2 Peter 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MagicDar:
Ok...first of all Cor. does not say women are not to speak in tounges at all, that was definately a personal interpretation that is certainly not biblical. It says women are to remain silent in church, doesn't mean they can't pray in tounges in private.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MagicDar:
Where it talks about women being silent, the reason that instruction was given in the first place was the women back then were actually causing trouble so they had to lay down some rules however that does not mean we as women are not to speak. This is what I believe<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you believe the Word of God, or do you believe that you have the authority to determine what God "meant" when he said it?

~Lorelei

 

Why, oh why, are our members (Baptist) questioning doctrine which has been established for ages. I think the end the end-time is truly near. I went to a large Southern Baptist Church that started had a young pastor who was not Baptist before he went to seminary. Sadly, a charismatic church in town split and guess where most of them went. The next thing we know we are rocking-and rolling from the "praise team" with full drums, dancing, etc. I watched this change and I can tell you that this was were actions of emotional crowd phenomenon. Yes, I was there and I am definitely a Christian.
In answer to your question, there is corruption everywhere. But, in case of this church, these people were becoming addicted to the "acts" and not the true worship. Attention started focusing inwardly on the church and no so much outwardly (except for fund raisers). If you were sick and God didn't heal you then you didn't have enough faith. I thought this was very interesting because if this were true a good Christian would never die in his physical body. We could put a Christian only every airliner and advertise that "this plane won't go down, it has a true Christian on board". I know I'm going overboard, but you know what the problem is? The Baptists (Southern) are NOT teaching the new members the theology that we grew up with to new members and all members. It is AMAZING, the dumb theological questions I heard asked in Sunday School classes. (I only used the word dumb because it was up to the church to have taught these people.) We are not getting ashamed to admit we are SBC members instead of proud. We would rather be non-denominational so we don't offend anybody. Yes, folks, we are no doubt living in the end times when we are afraid to stand up for the beliefs taught in SB churches for years. Just as the use of tongues in the Bible was to allow all of the mixed languages (aramaic, hebrew, Italian, Greek, arabic and all the other dialects of the day) to understand in their OWN language. God is NOT a God of confusion. May wayward daughter even told me I wasn't saved because I had never spoken in tongues. Its time to WAKE UP Southern Baptists.

 

Since I am not baptist I was asked to not share doctrinal beliefs on this particular forum so if anyone wants to discuss this, find me in another forum ok? Thanks!!!-dar

 

MagicDAR, please do not become upset because of this. Baptists do believe (if they practice the Bible) that they should "love" you and I do (not romantically, but as I would love a brother or sister)
I understand why they have asked you not to post and it is a legimate reason because this is a board for Baptist discussion and this is NOT part of the Baptist doctrine. Because of this reason, it is possible you will confuse new Christians who are Baptist before they are able to study WHY Baptists do not believe in modern day tongues. Yes, the Holy Spirit still gives us gifts, such as the gift to preach, to sing, to play a piano for the church, etc. But, Paul was admonishing the church of Corinth because they were bringing practices into the church that were pagan. He allowed a certain amount of this because they were still babys in Christ feeding off of the "Milk of the Word". Look at it the same way as we allow new Christians a little leeway in the way they might dress or talk about their past in a church, but as they grow in their Christian walk trying to become more like Jesus (as Paul said) then we expect them to be more Christlike and drop these old worldly practices. There are specific reasons Baptists do NOT subscribe to modern day speaking in tongues, Baptism of the spirit (the Holy Spirit comes to live in you the moment you become a Christian) and other charismatic activities. We feel that Charismatics focus on "emotion" and become "addicted" to the "act" of worship in an emotional manner and do not realize that although we should feel excited and emotional about what the Lord has done for us, but our worship is NOT based on emotion or feelings we get. Human beings are emotional creatures and much of the activities of Charismatics is no different than the crowd hypnosis who are under the spell of a very charismatic (not Christian use of the word) speakers.
For a complete explanation of why Baptists believe this way would take way more time or space than is available here. But, I will ask you one question in love and that is: "Why are you explaining your charismatic beliefs on a Baptist board if you are not trying to "convert" them?"
We do love you, but disagree with your doctrine.

 

As a fundamental, evangelical, narrow and discerning Baptist, I believe the charismatic movement has been responsible for more defeated Christians than anything the world can throw at us. I also believe we have allowed the "charismatics" to rob us of much of the joy of our salvation.

I can find nothing unscriptural about raising holy hands to our awesome God, or even a verbal "Amen" in response to a particular Spirit-moving message from the pulpit.

However, I believe real care needs to be taken when opening oneself to anything and everything that comes along, in an effort to be more spirit-filled.

Certainly, the way tongues is used in some charismatic churches is not scriptural and many of the healings that are claimed must be questioned. The charismatic movement, as a whole has emotionally destroyed more spirit-filled christians than it has helped.

You need only to look at the decadently extravegant lifestyles of the leaders of this movement to know what motivates it.

The whole idea of the "saved-today, lost tomorrow" mentality is destructive by it's very nature and not scripural. Face it....we who believe are sinners, saved by grace. The apostle Paul described himself as the "chiefest of sinners".

The God who created us would never expect us to survive the emotional roller-coaster the charismatics have placed themselves on.

This does not give us "once-saved, always-saved" Baptists license to do whatever we please, over and over again and expect to get away with it.

If we have a particular sin in our lives that we are not able gain victory over, we need to examine our own relationship with the Lord and bring into question if we were ever truly saved. If we are indeed, saved, He will give us victory over anything that separates us from Him.

Immediate forgiveness is onl a prayer away and we need to keep short accounts with God.

We will pay for the unconfessed sin in our lives and it may not be pretty. We are the losers for not keeping prayed up.

If you are a true bible-believing Christian today and you cannot feel daily and continual spiritual growth in your walk with the Lord, you should examine your relationship and bring into question your own salvation. Not to be growing, in itself, is sin.

We need to always be striving for Christ-like, sinless perfection knowing we will never acheive it this side of glory.

Beware the charismatics.

The most important thing in my life is that I am saved, I feel it in my heart, the Holy Spirit moved in at the time I was saved and convicts me of the sin in my life, I was spirit-filled at salvation, no need for the continual topping up experience. No man can take that away from me.....ever.

Get saved, get into the word, stayed prayed-up, get everybody else saved.

Guess it's just too simple.