If....then....

Romans 4 clearly sets "believing" and "faith" as the diametric opposite of "work". To speak as if faith is a "work" ("50% man"; "God did his part, you do yours", etc) that must be given to us as a "gift" in order to save, is directly contradicting scripture's own definitions! Once again, those straw man cliche's may be technically true, but this is what the Bible defines as what saves, so Biblically, it is NOT our work. Since God authored the whole plan of Salvation, it is His will and not man's will. (If it was man's will, everyone would be saved, except perhaps for mass murders, etc)

 

great reply Eric, i hadn't thought of it that way

If you the gospel accounts of Jesus's life you will find that Faith isn't a Gift that Jesus gives to anyone.

Matthew 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

now Jesus says according to YOUR faith (not faith that was given by Jesus) be it unto you.

this follows the verse where Jesus asks if the people believed that he could heal..he didn't say here is faith so you can believe..he simply asked them IF they believed.

this is just one example of many, disproving the interpretation that Faith is a gift or that the Holy spirit has to regenerate someone so they can have faith. according to this verse and many many more it is up to the person if they believe or not.

here is yet another example: Matthew 15:28

here is the story of a GREEK woman who is called a Dog by Jesus. note what takes place..

She first asks the Lord for help, he then calls her a DOG, now she isn't of the elect (Israel) and Jesus does not give her anything but a rebuke at this point.

And she said, Truth Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their master's table.

the Jesus answered her and said unto her,

"Oh woman, great is THY faith: be it unto thee EVEN AS THOU WILT" (even as thou wilt? what??could he be referring to HER will???)

did the Lord say MY faith that i have given thee? so there goes the Faith is a gift idea, right out the window, along with Holy Spirit regeneration for the ability to have faith in Jesus.

 

Helen, and all...Yes, the Bible from the beginning is filled with "if...then" statements. I would call them demands of God to receive conditional blessings. The prophets tell us again and again that Israel, and all mankind, utterly failed to meet His demands. Is modern man any better? "There is none righteous, no, not one."

"The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." Psalm 14:2-3

The natural man is evil altogether..."Only God is good," Jesus said. Gen 6:5 declares, "...every imagination of (man's) heart was only evil continually." Where has man reformed himself even a little since the Flood?

"Every man at his best state is altogether vanity." Don't imagine that men are some mixture of good and evil, IN THE SIGHT OF GOD. Sometimes we may appear "pretty good" in our own eyes, but "that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination to God", Jesus declared.

It comes down to this: all men OUGHT to believe and obey God, but NONE will or do unless they first be born of God...No, not one. Real faith requires a new heart; a new creature, or creation.

David, the prophet, cries out, "Blessed is the man whom Thou choosest, and causest to approach unto Thee." Psalm 65:4 ONLY such men are blessed of God. "Thy people shall be willing in the day of Thy power" Psalm 110:3 ...But not before ! All the others remain under the curse and wrath of God for sin.

Everyone who truly loves God, was loved by Him First, and that is why they do. To others, He will say, at the last day, "Depart from Me, ye that work iniquity; I never knew(loved) you."

Regards, in the Name of Him who first loved us, causing us by His Power to love Him in return,

connieman

 

conniemen, was the Greek woman born again of Jesus's blood? was she quickend by the spirit? did you read any of that in the account that was given?? No? then obviously unsaved man can seek God and have faith in God.

Will not. never means Can not. NO scripture says a natural man CAN NOT seek God and NO Romans 3:11 does not say a man can not seek God.

How do you explain this verse if total depravity is actually a scriptural thing???

"I have NOT spoken in secret, in a dark place of the Earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, SEEK ME in vain: I the Lord am rightous I declare all things that are right"

Now he is the sovereign God right? well he Just told you that Seeking him was right to do. so does God change? No he does not, his Councel stands.. Isaiah 46:10.

 

"Because I have CALLED, and YE have REFUSED;(oh someone was called that refused..interesting)

I have stretched out my hand and no man regarded;but YE have set at nought all my councel, and would none of my reproof:

I also will laught at your calamity; i will mock when your fear cometh; when your fear cometh and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh on you.

THEN shall they call upon me, But I will not answer; they shall seek me early but they shall not find me:

FOR THAT they have HATED KNOWLEDGE, and did not CHOOSE the fear of the Lord. (did not they could have but they didn't..God gave them a chance)

are you still going to hold to the unscriptural, man made theology, that man can't choose God or that he can't seek after God?

 

KJV1611 said,

Yep, because scripture says man does not seek after God (Romans 3:11)and man is not saved by his will but God's (John 1:12-13). To say people can be saved by their own seeking ignores the work of the Holy Spirit in bringing people to Christ. Many are CALLED but few are CHOSEN, Jesus Himself said. All His chosen will be saved as 2 Peter 3:9 states since God is not willing that they perish. If one is seeking after God it is because they are being drawn by the Holy Spirit. Jesus makes this clear, over and over and over again John 6:37-40.

No one is saying one is saved without Faith. Faith is a gift of God as Eph. 2:8-10 states as is all of salvation so all your arguments of faith saving us are in total agreement with Calvinism. It is her faith because it is worked into her by the conviction and regeneration of the Holy Spirit. That is why we call on people to place their faith in Christ in evangelism but they only have faith because of the Holy Spirit's work in them not because of human merit. Under the Non Calvinist view, God is a respector of persons because some people would have a advantage of having faith because of upbringing or culture over those with no religious training.

Faith however is absent in all the lost regardless of upbringing and requires the work of God the Holy Spirit to bring us to salvation while the Non Calvinist gives glory to the will of man in coming to Christ.

 

KJV1611...you appear to imagine that you are one of the relatively few intellectually, morally, or spiritually superior human beings who have the good sense, of your own natural volition, to "accept" Christ, and thus save yourself from the wrath of God. Most ordinary men, being too stupid, or too evil, will, of course, reject Him, to their everlasting damnation. Oh, if only we could all have such enlightened "free-will" power as do you!

Vain, proud boaster! Don't you see that all men, including yourself, are become "all together filthy" before God, according to the scriptures? Because of pride, men will not call upon the Name of the Lord. Indeed, because of their sin, they cannot. "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

BTW, would love to hear you read the original KJV1611 translation. Of course, the only REAL Bible is in Hebrew and Greek, and a little Aramaic. Are you fluent in the original languages? Regrettably, I am not, and have only a smattering of Latin. Thank God for William Tyndale, eh?

No, the Bible says "It is of Him(God) that ye are in Christ Jesus..." I Cor 1:30 It is NOT of ourselves.

Regards, in the Name of Him whom we love, because He first loved us, and gave Himself for us, when we were "without strength."

connieman

[ April 28, 2002, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: connieman ]

 

KJV1611,

Well, Paul certainly seems to say that it is:

"For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake." (Phil. 1:29)

Just as the suffering we do for Christ is given to us, so is our faith in Him given to us.

Is Paul disagreeing with Jesus? Of course not. Just because our faith is given to us doesn't mean it is not really OUR faith, in the same way that any suffering for Christ is really our suffering, even though the suffering is given to us.

 

Helen...No, my "arrogant and insulting" attitude is of the flesh, I confess, and may God deliver me. However, the wicked will not believe the truth, no matter how sweet I may become, so don't worry. I just don't suffer the willfully blind, and fools, gladly. Oops, I did it again! I really am sorry to be such a grouch; I truly believe that the blind ones cannot open their own eyes...yet, spiritually, mankind remains morally to blame before God for his sin, even though he cannot cease from sinning.

Unregenerate man is worse than an animal, or a robot! He is a hardened, unrepentant SINNER...a born enemy of God, who WILL NOI obey God, and repent, no matter how long he lives.

Could God look into the future, and see the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? No, because such a thing is impossible! So is a sinner who might choose to be a saint. Tain't Possible. It takes the resurrecting power of God to give life again to the dead.

The first Adam had free-will, and everlasting life, before he sinned. Only the last Adam, and those in Him, now has free-will. All other men since Adam are slaves to sin, but they don't believe it, and only God can free them. They cannot and won't will themselves free; such a thing would be only a vain hope. All men, sinners, are happy as they are!

But, having known the truth, and departed from it, I fear your case may in deed be hopeless. I pray it is not. "Examine yourselves; see if ye be in the faith, except ye be reprobate."

Consider this: "The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD." Prov 16:1 and "But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus..." I Cor 1:30 It is not of ourselves.

Regards, in the Name of Him who loved us who believe, and gave Himself for us, while we were "without strength" (m. helpless).

connieman

[ April 28, 2002, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: connieman ]

 

Eric:
Faith and belief are not opposites.Belief is the action of faith. Belief is the verb of the noun form.Furthermore, belief is a WORK. In John 6: 28,29, the Bible says," then said they( apostles)what must we do to work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them,This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

 

Hebrews 4:2 speaks of a people who heard the Word of the Gospel but they did not impliment their free will. God indicates that they did not ' . . . mix faith after having heard the truth. I don't think God wants to be blamed for their disbelief in His plan of salvation.

Saving faith is simply believing in what Jesus did on the Cross on our behalf. Understand, that this faith has to be sincere and a complete trust in His atoning plan of salvation. 'But to him who worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness [Rom. 4:5]. Apparently, a human response to His plan will save the soul. It does not say God's faith is counted for righteousness, but ' . . . his faith is counted for righteousness.' These words are very Biblical and also true.

Dr. Berrian

 

Frank, I didn't say faith and belief were opposites of each other. I said they both were opposites of works.

Yes, as a "work" it's attributed to God, not us, even though we can choose to do it or not. Salvation is His whole plan and action.

 

Eric:
The disciples asked,"what must WE DO TO WORK the works of God." They wanted to know what they must do. Must is from the greek word dei and means a divine imperative. In other words, the works they were to do were not optional as God required it of them.

 

No, No, No; the "works" they were asking about were the miracles just described in the context. Jesus is telling them that their priority is to believe, rather than focusing on signs and miracles (as other passages, such as Luke 10:20 attest), and then once they believed on the One who gave Jesus the power to do those works, they would also receive the power and be able to do the works.

[ April 30, 2002, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ]

 

Eric B,

I liked you sentence, 'Belief is the action of faith.' I noticed that you back up your beliefs with the Word, rightly interpreted.

Ray

 

Actually, it was Frank who said that, and I quoted it. I would agree with that, but not that belief was a "work" in a sense that we can be credited in "saving ourselves", for that is precisely the charge the Calvinists are making, but that is not the way the Bible portrays it. Faith is clearly contrasted with works.

 

Eric B,

I would have thought by now that knowledgable students of the Word would know that not one of our human 'works' can avail anything toward our final salvation. It is by grace alone . . .
Arminians Christians know this also. We are saved by faith and kept by faith. [I Peter 1:5] Not God's faith forced in us through Special Election, but rather our faith. [I Peter 1:9 & 21] 'Receiving the end of YOUR faith . . . ' 'Who by Him do believe in God, that raised Him up from the dead, and gave Him glory; that YOUR faith and hope might be in God.' At least we acknowledge that 'works' will be rewarded. Calvinists act like they have been 'blind-sided' on this truth from the Word.

At least for some Calvinists words like faith, good works, the Judgment Seat of Christ are not to be spoken about, yet along believed.

Ray

 

However, Kiffin did argue that “Calvinism believes that whosoever is saved is saved by God's grace alone” and admits the exclusion of any work on man’s part, including the work of believing, Also, the assertion that “Faith is a gift of God that comes from God” reinforces the exclusion of faith on man’s part.

If true, then ultimately, man is saved by God’s faith and not his own, which I assume is your position.

The rest of Kiffin’s comments above also reinforce the idea that “faith” is excluded for salvation. One cannot be saved by “grace alone” and by “grace and faith” at the same time; and Kiffin’s comments seem to contend for the former and reject the latter.

It was not asserted that faith is a work that warrants merit.

 

Personally, irrespective of the translations presented, I do not see any difficulty interpretating the text cited. My objections to Kiffin’s proposal:

1. The verse states that “as many as were ordained,” not “as many as were foreordained.”

2. Neither the verse nor the context speak of a preordination, especially of individuals, or demand such an interpretation (cf. Robertson Word Pictures).

3. Notwithstanding Kiffin’s extensive reference with Greek lexicons, nowhere is it shown (including the reference to tense) that the meaning of tasso has particular reference to preordination (or predestination) in any way. To erase any ambiguity to his meaning, I would think Luke would use a word that meant foreordination rather than tasso.

4. In no other verse in the NT where the word tasso is used does it mean an eternal preordination (or predestination) of any kind.

5. If “as many who were foreordained to eternal life believed,” it seems no one is left to obtain salvation in that community and it would be the only case in the Bible that such a separation is presented in so final a matter between the saved and unsaved.

Again, nothing in the meaning of “appoint” shown above reflects any form of a preordination or predestination.

To whatever degree a straining of the text is required; the fact is that the text is being strained when point 3 is interpreted into the text in support of the Reformed/Calvinistic view. To reiterate, “There is nothing in this place that suggests any ‘immutable decree’ regarding specific individuals.”

There seems to be no reference in any verses cited that suggest or demand the Reformed/Calvinistic interpretation supporting their view of preordination or predestination.

The text cited in Matthew speaks nothing about predestination.

The assert that “Scripture does not tell us Christ made salvation a possibility for all people” is, with all due respect to Kiffin, obviously false when John 3:16; 12:32; 1 Timothy 4:10; Titus 2:11; 1 John 2:2 are considered without “straining” the “clear” intention of each text as it stands on its own merits, ignoring the context, or manipulating the obvious meaning of words like “world” and “all” within the texts.