Baptist (Catholic) Missionaries

Spend some time and read John 3:5-8 carefully

 

Where do you see a lot of theological terms exactly in Scripture? How do you interpret John 3:3-6?

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The phrase born again (Gk. gennaoµ; from gevnna (descent, birth); to beget, to bring forth: and anoµthen; from above) literaly means “born from above.” Jesus answered a question that Nicodemus does not even ask. He read Nicodemus’ heart and came to the very core of his problem, i.e., the need for spiritual transformation or regeneration produced by the Holy Spirit. New birth is an act of God whereby eternal life is imparted to the believer (2 Cor. 5:17; Titus 3:5; 1 Pet. 1:3; 1 John 2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1, 4, 18).

Titus 3: He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit

Oh?

Jn 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Regeneration — This word literally means a “new birth.” The Greek word so rendered (palingenesia) is used by classical writers with reference to the changes produced by the return of spring. In Matt. 19:28 the word is equivalent to the “restitution of all things” (Acts 3:21). In Titus 3:5 it denotes that change of heart elsewhere spoken of as a passing from death to life (1 John 3:14); becoming a new creature in Christ Jesus (2 Cor. 5:17); being born again (John 3:5); a renewal of the mind (Rom. 12:2); a resurrection from the dead (Eph. 2:6); a being quickened (2:1, 5).
This change is ascribed to the Holy Spirit. It originates not with man but with God (John 1:12, 13; 1 John 2:29; 5:1, 4).
As to the nature of the change, it consists in the implanting of a new principle or disposition in the soul; the impartation of spiritual life to those who are by nature “dead in trespasses and sins.”
The necessity of such a change is emphatically affirmed in Scripture (John 3:3; Rom. 7:18; 8:7–9; 1 Cor. 2:14; Eph. 2:1; 4:21–24). {Easton's}

Classic nonsequiter. So we are to believe only your interpretation, I presume? I suppose you listen to no sermons and read no commentaries?

Eph 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ

 

Chris:
The term whosoever is not in the greek because it is an english word. Are you implying the original language does not have the implied meaning as whosoever in a universal sense?
Jn. 3:3-5 teaches we must be born of the water and the Spirit. In Acts 2:38 the Spirit uses Peter to deliver the message of the new birth. Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. And they that gladly received the word ( power of the spirit)were baptized and there was added unto them about three thousand souls.( Birth into Kingdom Acts 2:47. I Tim. 3:15 Col. 1:12,13).
The same Jesus that said belief was a work made it a condition to get into the church. In Mark 16:16 Jesus said," He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
Finally, the Bible teaches that belief is a work of God. Men that exercise( act in obedient faith Romans 16:26) it will be saved when they believe as instructed by Christ and through the power of the word as delivered by the Holy Spirit. This is applicable to whosoever, everyone, all men, every creature. For proper understanding of salvation, see the new testament.
Frank
Frank

 

It is applicable to whosoever, everyone, all men, every creature who are identified by teh phrase in question. In John 3:16 we read, "pas ho pisteuon eis auton." "Pas" is the word translated whosoever, and it literally means all. Pisteuon is a present active particle from the verb pisteuo meaning to believe. Thus the phrase says, "All who believe." Thus, the "all" is modified by "who believe." It cannot be taken apart from that.

Notice what it does not say:
1. It does not say that all can believe.
2. It does not say that all will believe.
3. It does not say what causes men to believe.

So, when this verse is cited as proof that all men without exception have the ability to believe, it is clear that someone has introduced something to the text that is not there. To put it plainly, they have added to Scripture. Chris, I, and the other calvinists here plainly agree with this verse and preach it with conviction. Whoever believes will have eternal life.\

By the way, Chris's translation of "may" takes into account the subjunctive verb in the Greek. It shoudl not be read as a possibility but in the idiom as a certainty.

[ April 29, 2002, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

Excellent post Pastor Larry.

 

I will have to check my greek, but if I remember correctly, the "word" in this verse is "rhema". That refers to the "spoken word". Same as in Romans 10:17.

I would like to see (I have made this challenge so many times) a primitive interpret the following:

Romans 10:17 and 1 Corinthians 1:21. I don't think it will happen seeing how it never has. Good luck.

 

Larry:
It does not say all cannot believe either. The totality of the evidence still teaches that men can submit their will to Christ through and ACTIVE FAITH ( BELIEF)and be saved by the grace of God.( Eph. 2:8,9). The Bible does not teach:
1. All men will believe.
2. All men wil be saved.
The Bible does teach that ALL MEN CAN BE SAVED. ( I Tim. 2:3-5).
Men believe through the word spoken.( Jn. 15:3).
the reception of evidence.( Jn. 20:30,31, James 1:18,21). I have affirmed that the word saves seperate and apart from a direct operation of the Holy Spirit. Do you deny this?
I never made any comment about John 3:16. I never claimed John 3:16 taught anything as I did not mention it. I have no idea why you posted that in response to the truth being presented.
However, the How? of belief has been posted see above. Pisteou is the active form of faith. How does one believe? he must repent of his sins Lk. 13:3,5, confess Christ Mat. 10:32,be baptized for, unto, to the obtaining of the remission of sins. ( Actr 2:38). He must be faithful tothe commandments of God. ( Rev. 2:10).
Faith is formed in men when they here the word of God. (Roms.10:17) They accept the evidence as truth. ( Jn. 20: 30, 31).All men do not have faith,because all men do not recieve the evidence to have it formed in them.
Larry, perhaps you should follow your own advice, use proper hermeneutics! Never make conclusions until all the evidence has been examined. The evidence simply indicates all men are accountable to Christ. (Romans 14:12,II Cor 5:10). All men must have a belief active verb for faith. ( Hebrews 11:6). All men who will can come to Christ through the gospel.( Romans 1:16,17, Gal. 3:26,27, Mk. 1:15). Jesus is the authour of eternal salvation to ALL THOSE that OBEY HIM.( Hebrews 5:8,9).
This is exactly what those on Pentecost did when the church was established.
" they that gladly received the WORD were baptized and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls." On the day of Pentecost, there were about a million people in Jerusalem,however not all of them were saved. But whosoever will came and were saved. As I said earlier, some men will and some men want, but whosoever will can be saved.
Frank

 

Only when regenerated by the Holy Spirit can men do this. You appealed to the "whosover" as support for your position that all men without exception can believe. One of the most familiar verses where this occurs is John 3:16. KJV1611Only made the direct reference. You seemed to appeal to it in your post above. I simply showed that the verse does not address that issue.

Without question ... as does Paul: 1 Corinthians 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

I see no place either here or above where the How has been addressed. How does a man dead in trespasses and sin who is not seeking for God and who is unable to please God exercise faith?

Pisteuo is the verb form of the word that means belief. All faith is active.

I have examined all the evidence and am trying to get you to do the same.

Without question.

Without question.

Without question.

Without question.

Without question.

However your problem is that you have no way to cross the bridge of depravity. How does a person get from spiritually dead to exercising faith.

John 1:12-13 tells us. When you consider "all the evidence" consider this piece. Unequivocally and undeniably, people are not born again by the will of man or the will of the flesh but of God. Your position denies the truth of this verse. You would place the new birth in the will of man. John, under the inspiration of the Spirit places it in God.

 

This is always .. always... ALWAYS the problem. Those who deny the doctrines of grace firstly deny the depravity of man. It is believed that man is able, despite his spiritual deadness and enmity with God, to willfully and cheerfully choose Christ of their own ability. Those who deny ULIP first deny T.

Rom. 8:7-8, “The mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, it does not submit to God’s law; indeed it cannot. But you are not in the flesh; you are in the Spirit if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you.”

[ April 29, 2002, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

 

Larry:
I have affirmed that the word of God is sufficient to save the sinner.( Hebrews 4:12, Eph.6:17, James 1:18,21, John 15:3 II Thes. 2:14, I Pet.1:22-25, John 15:3, Acts 4:4, Acts 2:41). It is the word that saves, not the direct indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Please provide the biblical evidence for such.
Larry, John 1:12,13 teaches us the power is given to those that receive him. In Romans 1:16 that POWER is revealed.It is the Gospel. and this is the only power that saves,not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This is in harmony with verse 13,as it is the WILL OF GOD that the Gospel saves
ALL no exceptions. This includes Jews, Greeks,EVERYONE!
John 1:12,13 says nothing concerning the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and saving the sinner.If so, where? Men are begotten by the Gospel,not by the Spirit. (ICor 4:15,James 1:18).
I Cor. 2:19 the natural (psuchikos)man is not the same as the fleshly man( psuche). psuchikos refers to the mind in this context, not the fleshly man. The context of the chapter is teaching us how we got the Bible.(ICor. 2:6-13). How the mystery was revealed salvation IN Christ.
GOD HAS ALWAYS USED MEN TO PREACH THE WORD AND SAVE. IT IS A HUMAN ENTERPRISE ORDAINED OF GOD, WIHTOUT EXCEPTION.(II Cor. 4:17).
Frank

 

http://members.aol.com/dwibclc/power.htm

Great article from a Sovereign Grace perspective!

 

1:13 And when30 you heard the word of truth (the gospel of your salvation)—when you believed in Christ31—you were marked with the seal32 of the promised Holy Spirit,33 1:14 who is the down payment34 of our inheritance, until the redemption of God’s own possession35 to the praise of his glory. - Ephesians 1:13 NET

The indwelling of the Spirit is a result of believing in Christ.

3:2 The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law4 or by believing what you heard?5 3:3 Are you so foolish? Although you began6 with7 the Spirit, are you now trying to finish8 by human effort?9 3:4 Have you suffered so many things for nothing? —if indeed it was for nothing. 3:5 Does God then give10 you the Spirit and work miracles among you by your doing the works of the law11 or by your believing what you heard?12 - Galatians 3:2-5 NET

The fact that the indwelling of the Spirit comes as a result of faith does not mean that the Spirit plays no part in attaining faith. It is through His Holy Spirit that God enables to recognize our need for salvaton.

6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him,60 and I will raise him up at the last day. - John 6:44 NET

We are dependant on the mercy and grace of God to be able to accept His Word of Truth.

 

You must have forgotten what you said. I will repeat here for you: I have affirmed that the word saves seperate and apart from a direct operation of the Holy Spirit. Do you deny this? You did not ask about indwelling. Of course, indwelling comes after salvation. If you ask me if a person can be saved without indwelling coming first, then I answer absolutely. You asked another question.

Furthermore, you have a problem. The word is the power of God to salvation and is necessary for salvation. However, since the natural man cannot understand the things of teh Spirit of God without the illumination of the Spirit, no one will ever get saved in your construction. Plainly put, the direct operation of the Holy Spirit is necessary for a person to be saved (1 Cor 2:14).

And if you read the verse you will see the issue I am pointing out. Those who receive him do so because they were born, not of the will of man, nor of the will of the flesh, but of God. You have a direct problem with this verse because you want to say that men were born of their own will. John says it was directly the will of God.

So then why isn't everyone saved??? Is it because the will of God is being thwarted?? Or is it because you don't understand the "will of God."

Without a doubt ... and it is explaining why the unsaved man does not accept the things the Scripture teaches. It is because he does not have the Spirit. Your attempt at a distinction between the fleshly man and the natural man out of sorts with Scripture. If you study this concept you will find that they are the same.

You won't have any disagreement from me on this. But this is not the point.

 

Christopher:
How does the Spirt do this? ( Eph.6:17, Hebrews 4:12). The Holy Spirit uses the sword which is the word of God. Please give me an example from the Bible where the Holy Spirit indwelt one and saved him from his sins. You claim Holy Spirit regeneration. Now, prove it! (IThes.5:21). The scriptures you listed do not prove it.
Men are drawn by the cross. ( Jn. 12:32).
Romans 8:11 does not teach that the Holy Spirit regenerates us.
The spirit of adoption is not Holy Spirit regeneration. ( Eph.1:5-7). This passage does not teach regeneration.
I Cor. 12:12,13 is teaching us the turh that is delivered that puts one IN Christ by the one spirit which is the spirit of truth.( Jn.16:13,Eph. 4:5). Again , this does not teah Holy Spirit regeneration.
Christ dwell in us by the spirit, not regeneration.
Frank

 

Larry:
I have no problem. The verse simply does not mean what you claim it does. Men accept evidence and believe. ( Jn.20:30,31). This is essetnial for faith. (Hebrews 11:1). The context teaches that before the revelation of the mystery men did not know about salvation in Christ. It did not come from the mind of man,( vs,12,13). The mystery was not a concept of the natural mind. It came from God. This simply does not teach what you say it does. As men receive evidence, they can change the way they think.( Romans 12:1,2, Jn.20:30 31, Eph. 4:23). If not, then no one could be saved!(LK. 13:3,5, Acts 3:19).
It is the word of God that saves, apart from the intervention(DIRECT OPERATION) of the Holy Spirit in the sinner. I hope this makes it clear as clear can be.( James 1:18,21,I Cor.4:15, John 15:3), and a host of other passages.
Men are not saved because they do not want to be obedient to Christ.( Hebs.5:8,9, Mat. 7:21,22). Some simply will not accept the word that saves.( Jn. 5:39). Some do not love truth.(II Thes.2:10-12). Some disbelieve.( Hebrews 3:12). Some are prideful. They do not want to give up their religious titles and positions. ( John 12:42,43). Some love the pleasures of this world.(I Jn. 2:15-17, II Tim. 4:10). These are the many choices men make.
God's will is that all men be saved IN Christ.And all men that are saved will be saved in Christ. God's will is not twarted.
This all goes back to a misunderstanding of the nature of God.God has choice; God made man with choice. God is Good; God made Man Good.( Gen. 1:26,27;31). God is also a just God.(Romans 11:22). He rewrds the faithful and punishes the wicked.( Mat.25: 46).
God knew man being a free moral agent would sin. He lovingly provided a means for our justification. His desire is that all men be saved though some chooses not to be. Before the world was God knew how he would bring man back into fellowship with him and it would be IN CHRIST. (Eph. 1:1-15, Gal. 3:22-29).
I have no problem with John 1:12,13. The problem is yours. God's will is that all men be saved by the gospel. ( Romans 1:16,17). Paul wrote," For I am not ashamed of the GOSPEL OF CHRIST for IT IS THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION to WHO? EVERYONE THAT BELIEVETH to the JEW first and also to the GREEK."
Frank

 

To be honest, Frank, the more you talk, the less I am convinced you are fully engaged in the issues that surround the discussion we are having. It seems unconscionable that you can make some of the statements you make, both contradictory to Scripture as well as contradictory to other statements you make.

According to who?? You?? What are your credentials to decide for the whole world what this verse means? It is pretty clear from the words John used what it means. No one disagrees that man accepts evidence and believes. That is not at issue. Nor does anyone dispute that man exercises faith for salvation. Neither is that at issue.

1 Cor 2:14 expressly refutes your position. You limit it to the mystery of salvation in Christ when the text does no such thing. 2 Cor 4:6 also refutes you on this. Man cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God because he does not have the mind of God.

This is pure and utter false teaching. If the Holy Spirit does not intervene, man will not be saved.

I don't disagree with any of this. However, I have a reason for this: Depravity. You do not. Why do men make these choices? Because of their sinful nature.

Can you not see a contradiction here? I cannot even read this with a straight face. It is God's will that all men be saved and God's will is not thwarted. Yet as you say above, some will not accept salvation. So if God wills all to be saved and some are not saved, how can you say that God's will is not thwarted??

You got this right. However, you are unwilling to accept what God has said about himself in Scripture. This discussion stems because you misunderstand the nature of God and the nature of man.

Here I have edited a few of your statements together to show how much you are not making sense in this conversation. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth:

So my question is this: Is it God’s unthwartable will that all be saved and therefore all are saved, or are there some that are not saved and therefore God’s will is thwarted.

To say that it is God’s will that all be saved in Christ is what I would say. Yet you would deny the implications of that statement such as are found in John 6:37, 44, 63-5.

At some point you have to make up your mind. Either

1) God’s will is that all men be saved but God’s will can be thwarted.
2) God’s will is that all men be saved and it cannot be thwarted so all men are saved.
3) God’s will is that all men be saved but in his sovereign decree not all are saved.

 

Frank:

Can you explain the following passage in light of your assertion that God wills all people to be saved?

John 17:6-12 (ESV)
"I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. [7] Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. [8] For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. [9] I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. [10] All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. [11] And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. [12] While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

John 17:24-26 (ESV)
Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. [25] O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. [26] I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them."