Is Abortion Murder?

I find God's guidence for my position even with the mocking I get from others on this board, from Jeremiah 20: 7

7 O Lord , you persuaded me, and I was persuaded;
you overpowered me and prevailed.
I am ridiculed all day long;
everyone mocks me.

8 Whenever I speak, I cry out
proclaiming violence and destruction.
So the word of the Lord has brought me
insult and reproach all day long.

9 But if I say, "I will not mention him
or speak any more in his name,"
his word is in my heart like a fire,
a fire shut up in my bones.
I am weary of holding it in;
indeed, I cannot.

10 I hear many whispering,
"Terror on every side!
Report him! Let's report him!"
All my friends
are waiting for me to slip, saying,
"Perhaps he will be deceived;
then we will prevail over him
and take our revenge on him."

11 But the Lord is with me like a mighty warrior;
so my persecutors will stumble and not prevail.
They will fail and be thoroughly disgraced;
their dishonor will never be forgotten.

 

Hi wingtrap and welcome. That scripture has been posted by someone else already and answered, but feel free to question or pose a critic of my response. I think you will find it on page 3 of this thread.

</font>[/QUOTE]Wingtrap. . apparantly he thinks that any scripture that says anything besides what he believes isolated and not the norm in the scriptures. I tried using this one before.

 

Post it, following your past logic I am guessing that if someone were to kill you it would be my responsibility to stand up for the rights of the killer so that he won't have to be prosecuted, right? I mean after all. . people are going to kill other people anyway, can't hardly blame them. . . Poor murderers.

 

11 But the Lord is with me like a mighty warrior;
so my persecutors will stumble and not prevail.
They will fail and be thoroughly disgraced;
their dishonor will never be forgotten.
------------------------------------------------

This may apply if you were actually defending something that God approved of, but since it is murder, I don't think I would draw allot comfort from that verse.

 

This passage does not establish that a fetus is alive. It establishes that God knew him before he was even concieved. If you try to use this argument for justification for life, you will also have to start protecting eggs of women as they must also be alive since God knew them before they are fertilized as he does in this passage.

 

15 PAGES WOW!! KNOW LETS GO SOUL WINNING BEFORE ANOTHER SLIPS INTO HELL!!!!

 

Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

So here is the sin,it not because killing is a sin against man,because each person could have a different set of values,some people may not think it is sin,but because it is a sin against God,even in the womb is a fetus the IMAGE OF GOD

 

It wasn't a promise Murph. This is a promise.

Jeremiah 20:9 But if I say,
"I will not mention him
or speak any more in his name,"
his word is in my heart like a fire,
a fire shut up in my bones.
I am weary of holding it in;
indeed, I cannot.

The Lord is overriding my desire to drop-it with these passages, maybe you missed the whole thing on the page 15.

So I will speak what the Lord has placed on my heart to say and you nor my own desires of not wanting to be mocked as Jeremiah was, shall stop it.

Of course I think the thread seems to be over now, since no one can present any scripture that even implies that life starts before the first breath. JasonW found one I hadn't seen yet but not even that one came close when accepted on its own or even by implication when examined along side other scripture. Pastor Larry started to present an argument but failed to come back in when asked what agreement we could come to on a word in the scripture. But that passage has been dealt with earlier, I was just going to make a broader argument why it didn't support life before first breath.

 

I know a cure for you, post-it. You need to be present at an abortion. Say of about a five month along baby.

You would come back and erase every post you have on this thread.

Guaranteed.

 

post-it:

Doesn't it seem a little strange that most, if not all, have been against your ideas about abortion as being nothing but cold, blodded murder? Now, mind you, all of these including myself and you, claim to be Christians, and also a lot are Baptist, such as you and Joshua. Speaking of Josh, he seems to have taken a back seat to this debate. With such a vast majority of Christians being opposed to your views, could it possible that you are wrong and have gone too far to say, I guess I was? If I were in your shoes, I would think long and hard about this. But who am I to ask this of you? Just a Christian who is very concerned about your view, first that it isn't a life till it breathes air(that,s a new one for me), and second, it isn't murder as this is just a piece of meat in a woman(less value than a rat). Strange, life in a hospital(where I volunteer), is considered to be based on brain waves and a heartbeat. You are not legally dead until your brain ceases to function. Now doesn't an unborn child have a heart beat and brain waves, breathing or not. And to kill your idea about breathing, a baby gets its oxygen via it's mother, so in that sense, it is breathing. Now those who would really agree with you are the "lost" of this world because SELF means more. Just curious, would you have agreed with your wife if she had wanted an abortion, assuming you have children. Boy, would I be careful about answering that one!

God Bless.............Alex

 

It wasn't a promise Murph. This is a promise.

Jeremiah 20:9 But if I say,
"I will not mention him
or speak any more in his name,"
his word is in my heart like a fire,
a fire shut up in my bones.
I am weary of holding it in;
indeed, I cannot.

The Lord is overriding my desire to drop-it with these passages, maybe you missed the whole thing on the page 15.

So I will speak what the Lord has placed on my heart to say and you nor my own desires of not wanting to be mocked as Jeremiah was, shall stop it.

[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]This is near blasphemy. Defending murder and trying push it off on as "God's will"

 

Excellent Wingtrap, you have 1/2 of a perfect argument against abortion, now for the other half. It will require a verse that says that a "man" is formed in the womb. Or a child/baby is made in the image of God inside the womb. Using these two verses together will make the only argument that I have seen that would show the Bible is against abortion.

 

I have some very sad news for most of you here.

While helping wingtrap look for a verse to show abortion not acceptable in the Bible I was shocked to find that on the contrary, the Bible not only endorses abortion, but God commanded the Priest to do them.

So please stop saying that the Bible and God are against abortion and that abortion is murder. It clearly is not and it is very clearly stated in this chapter.

Numbers 5:22
May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells and your thigh wastes away. [ 5:22 Or [ body and cause you to be barren and have a miscarrying womb ] ] " " 'Then the woman is to say, "Amen. So be it."

 

This passage does not establish that a fetus is alive. It establishes that God knew him before he was even concieved. If you try to use this argument for justification for life, you will also have to start protecting eggs of women as they must also be alive since God knew them before they are fertilized as he does in this passage.[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Twist the Bible as you will, stand with the world on this if you will. I will continue to defend the Word of God and fact that you, sir, are defending murder. How will God view this? Will you be considered an accomplise? Who knows, but I would be careful were I you. It scares me that you are not concerned about claiming that God is telling you to defend these views. . . views which are only accepted and tolerated by a wicked generation, views which that promote "loose" lifestyles and selfishness. What would Jesus do?? Would he support murder? What would HE be posting? He would probably be so brokenhearted at reading that someone using HIS name (Christian) is living a double standard life. . . then again, maybe He would be infuriated that his name was being blasphemed and used in this manner (to support murder). In either case, I fear that you will have ALLOT to answer for when you die. You remain in my prayers.

 

Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the Old Testament
Henry, Matthew

Numbers 5:11
VERSES 11-31
We have here the law concerning the solemn trial of a wife whose husband was jealous of her.

I'll edit so you don't have to read a huge post.

II. What was the course prescribed in this case, that, if the suspected wife was innocent, she might not continue under the reproach and uneasiness of her husband’s jealousy, and, if guilty, her sin might find her out, and others might hear, and fear, and take warning.
1. The process of the trial must be thus:—(1.) Her husband must bring her to the priest, with the witnesses that could prove the ground of his suspicion, and desire that she might be put upon her trial. The Jews say that the priest was first to endeavour to persuade her to confess the truth, saying to this purport, “Dear daughter, perhaps thou wast overtaken by drinking wine, or wast carried away by the heat of youth or the examples of bad neighbours; come, confess the truth, for the sake of his great name which is described in the most sacred ceremony, and do not let it be blotted out with the bitter water.” If she confessed, saying, “I am defiled,” she was not put to death, but was divorced and lost her dowry; if she said, “I am pure,” then they proceeded. (2.) He must bring a coarse offering of barley-meal, without oil or frankincense, agreeably to the present afflicted state of his family; for a great affliction it was either to have cause to be jealous or to be jealous without cause. It is an offering of memorial, to signify that what was to be done was intended as a religious appeal to the omniscience and justice of God. (3.) The priest was to prepare the water of jealousy, the holy water out of the laver at which the priests were to wash when they ministered; this must be brought in an earthen vessel, containing (they say) about a pint; and it must be an earthen vessel, because the coarser and plainer every thing was the more agreeable it was to the occasion. Dust must be put into the water, to signify the reproach she lay under, and the shame she ought to take to herself, putting her mouth in the dust; but dust from the floor of the tabernacle, to put an honour upon every thing that pertained to the place God had chosen to put his name there, and to keep up in the people a reverence for it; see Jn. 8:6. (4.) The woman was to be set before the Lord, at the east gate of the temple-court (say the Jews), and her head was to be uncovered, in token of her sorrowful condition; and there she stood for a spectacle to the world, that other women might learn not to do after her lewdness, Eze. 23:48. Only the Jews say, “Her own servants were not to be present, that she might not seem vile in their sight, who were to give honour to her; her husband also must be dismissed.” (5.) The priest was to adjure her to tell the truth, and to denounce the curse of God against her if she were guilty, and to declare what would be the effect of her drinking the water of jealousy, v. 19-22. He must assure her that, if she were innocent, the water would do her no harm, v. 19. None need fear the curse of the law if they have not broken the commands of the law. But, if she were guilty, this water would be poison to her, it would make her belly to swell and her thigh to rot, and she should be a curse or abomination among her people, v. 21, 22. To this she must say, Amen, as Israel must do to the curses pronounced on mount Ebal, Deu. 27:15-26. Some think the Amen, being doubled, respects both parts of the adjuration, both that which freed her if innocent and that which condemned her if guilty. No woman, if she were guilty, could say Amen to this adjuration, and drink the water upon it, unless she disbelieved the truth of God or defied his justice, and had come to such a pitch of impudence and hard-heartedness in sin as to challenge God Almighty to do his worst, and choose rather to venture upon his curse than to give him glory by making confession; thus has whoredom taken away the heart.

If the suspected woman was really guilty, the water she drank would be poison to her (v. 27), her belly would swell and her thigh rot by a vile disease for vile deserts, and she would mourn at the last when her flesh and body were consumed, Prov. 5:11. Bishop Patrick says, from some of the Jewish writers, that the effect of these waters appeared immediately, she grew pale, and her eyes ready to start out of her head. Dr. Lightfoot says that sometimes it appeared not for two or three years, but she bore no children, was sickly, languished, and rotted at last; it is probable that some indications appeared immediately. The rabbin say that the adulterer also died in the same day and hour that the adulteress did, and in the same manner too, that he belly swelled, and his secret parts rotted: a disease perhaps not much unlike that which in these latter ages the avenging hand of a righteous God has made the scourge of uncleanness, and with which whores and whoremongers infect, and plague, and ruin one another, since they escape punishment from men. The Jewish doctors add that the waters had this effect upon the adulteress only in case the husband had never offended in the same kind; but that, if he had at any time defiled the marriage-bed, God did not thus right him against his injurious wife; and that therefore in the latter and degenerate ages of the Jewish church, when uncleanness did abound, this way of trial was generally disused and laid aside; men, knowing their own crimes, were content not to know their wives’ crimes. And to this perhaps may refer the threatening (Hos. 4:14), I will not punish your spouses when they commit adultery, for you yourselves are separated with whores. [2.] If she were innocent, the water she drank would be physic to her: She shall be free, and shall conceive seed, v. 28. The Jewish writers magnify the good effects of this water to the innocent woman, that, to recompense her for the wrong done to her by the suspicion, she should, after the drinking of these waters, be stronger and look better than ever; if she was sickly, she should become healthful, should bear a man-child, and have easy labour.

--------------------------------------------
Sounds more like a VD than an abortion. . and it was performed by GOD not the priest. The priests only provided the water with the dust in it. God made the water poison if she was guilty.

[ August 24, 2002, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: onevoice ]

 

No onevoice, I am working at preventing "real" murders of the women who decide to have illegal abortions if your side prevails. I say real human life should not be murdered by the illegal abortion doctors that WILL CROP UP if your side wins. I don't believe that fetus are human until 1st breath, so I am fighting to prevent murders of women (who we know have real and meaningful life) because you are too short sighted to see what will happen if you win this argument. We only have to look at history to see the murders that will happen.

You have bought into the latest Church Money Maker that is making the rounds and haven't been a Christian long enough to realize what is going on here. I don't have a problem with members who don't understand how many millions and millions are raised to "fight abortion, homosexuals, and other devils", but I don't have to go along with the murders that this will cause. I'm telling you, it is a con of Satan. Women will die!!! Do you understand that. Are you really sure a fetus is a person, because you should know 100% that a girl or woman is a person. If you are wrong and women are murdered, then the blood will be on your hands, not mine.

There is no support in the Bible that abortion is wrong and in fact it is acceptable as I just pointed out in my last post. So you need to think about what cause you are fighting for and is it really what the Lord is saying or what Man is saying to make money at the life expense of others. You can well be sure the masses supported the witch hunts, the Crusades, and Slavery. But we must not follow the crowd, we must use our own brains and the Bible, not someone elses brain and their interpretation of the Bible. Listen to the Holy Spirit not man.

[ August 24, 2002, 11:04 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

I, as well as the majority of Christians, are following the spirit in this matter.

Are you one of these people that thinks we should legalize drugs since people are going to take them anyway? If we take your line of thought, we might as well.. I mean, people get killed trying to get them illegally.

 

Also, Even supposing for a moment you were right and babies aren't alive (which is a lie)and abortion is outlawed, I STILL would not be responsible for a woman being killed for breaking the law to have an illegal operation that is not necessary. It is her fault.

On the other hand, if a baby IS alive (which it is) before birth and abortion is legal, those who support the murder WILL have blood on ther hands.

Think about it.