On Free Will...

i never felt like i was in a corner but if it makes you feel better ...it seems the calvinists are the ones who get antagonistic when others disagree with them.....its ok to have differences...if we were all the same we'd be like..egads..calvinists haha.... one thing for sure, none of us is perfect...some less perfect then others maybe... lol

 

Pastor Larry,

In my post I was expressing the fact that God brings His Providence into our lives guiding us as to the direction He wants us to go. Major decisions of our lives . . . .

I agree with doug 44 July 23, 2002 10:29 a.m. As to the salvation of humankind, I believe that he sovereignly has allowed for human beings to either believe or reject the Gospel.

 

Yes he can. But can he do something contrary to his nature? No he can't. So God is not free in the sense that you define free will. You have a different definition of freedom for God than you do for man who was made in God's image. I think the image of God in man means, in part, that man's freedom is just like God's. He can do anything consistent with his nature

 

Romans 9:20-22 (NIV)
20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

"Truly, truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me" (John 13:21). When the disciples asked Jesus to identify the traitor, he replied, "It is he to whom I shall give this morsel when I have dipped it." Then Jesus dipped the morsel, gave it to Judas and said, "What you are going to do, do quickly" (John 13:26-27).
Later that evening in his great prayer of intercession, Jesus said, "While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled" (John 17:12). Here Jesus prayed about Judas, but not for Judas, and called him the "son of perdition."

In Prov. 16:9 we read, "The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps." Passages such as this may teach that man has a measure of self-determination, while at the same time indicating that what man freely chooses is also (on some level) directed by God.
The question of man's free will is made more complicated by the fact that we must examine it in man, in terms of how the will functioned before and after the fall of Adam. Most important for us today is how the Fall affected man's moral choices.

1. posse pecarre-referring to the ability to sin.
2. posse non-pecarre-referring to the ability not to sin, or to remain free from sin.
3. non-posse pecarre-referring to the inability to sin.
4. non-posse, non-pecarre-referring to the inability not to sin.

Adam had possessed both the ability to sin (posse pecarre) and the ability not to sin (posse non-pecarre). Adam lacked the exalted state of the inability to sin that God enjoys (non-posse pecarre). God's inability to sin is based not on an inner powerlessness of God to do what he wants, but rather on the fact that God has no inner desire to sin. Since the desire for sin is utterly absent from God, there is no reason for God to choose sin. During his time of "probation" in the garden, he had the ability to sin and the ability not to sin. He chose to exercise the ability to sin and thus plunged the race into ruin.

As a result, Adam's first sin was passed on to all his descendants. Original sin refers not to the first sin but to God's punishment of that first transgression. Because of the first sin human nature fell into a morally corrupt state, itself partially a judgment of God. When we speak of original sin, we refer to the fallen human condition which reflects the judgment of God upon the race. No longer does man have the posse non-pecarre. In his fallen state the plight of man is found in his inability to keep from sinning (non-posse, non-pecarre). In the Fall, something profoundly vital to moral freedom was lost. Augustine declared that in his prefallen state man enjoyed both a free will (liberium arbitrium) and moral liberty (libertas). Since the Fall, man has continued to have a free will, but has lost the moral liberty he once enjoyed.

With respect to the making of choices, fallen man still has the natural ability and the natural faculties necessary to make moral choices. Man can still think, feel, desire. All of the equipment necessary for the making of choices remains. What fallen man lacks is the moral disposition, the desire, or the inclination of righteousness. He is naturally free, but morally enslaved to his own corrupt and wicked desires. Man is still free to choose; but if left to himself, man will never choose righteousness, precisely because he does not desire it.

Man still has not only the ability, but also the built-in necessity, to choose according to his desires. Not only can we choose what we want, but we must choose what we want. It is at this point that the protest is sounded: Is free choice an illusion? If we must choose what we choose, how can such a choice be called free? If we are free to choose what we want but want only what is evil, how can we still speak of free will? This is precisely why Augustine distinguished between free will and liberty, saying that fallen man still has free will but has lost his liberty. It is why Edwards said that we still have natural freedom but have lost moral freedom.

Why talk of freedom at all, if we can choose only sin? The crux of the matter lies in the relationship between choice and desire, or disposition. Edwards's thesis is that we always choose according to the strongest inclination, or disposition, of the moment. Again, not only can we choose according to our strongest desires, but we must choose according to our strongest desires of the moment. Such is the essence of freedom-that I am able to choose what I want when I want it.

If I must do something, then in a sense my actions are determined. If my actions are determined, then how can I be free? The classic answer to this difficult question is that the determination of my choices comes from within myself. The essence of freedom is self-determination. It is when my choices are forced upon me by external coercion that my freedom is lost. To be able to choose what I want by virtue of self-determination does not destroy free will but establishes it.

To choose according to the strongest desire, or inclination, of the moment means simply that there is a reason for the choices I make. At one point Edwards defined the will as "the mind choosing." The actual choice is an effect, or result, which requires an antecedent cause. The cause is located in the disposition, or desire. If all effects have causes, then all choices likewise have causes. If the cause is apart from me, then I am a victim of coercion. If the cause is from within me, then my choices are self-determined or free.

But we are creatures of changing moods and fleeting desires who have not yet achieved a constancy of will based upon a consistency of godly desires. As long as conflict of desire exists and an appetite for sin remains in the heart, then man is not totally free in the moral sense of which Edwards spoke, nor does man experience the fullness of liberty described by Augustine.

 

But God shows his anger from heaven against all lsinful, wicked people who push the truth away from themselves. For the truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts. From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth, and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities, his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God. Romans 1:18-20.

So many people have taken Paul's words and twisted them making it seem like God pre-destinates all people who are saved but this scripture totally refutes this belief. Paul said the wicked people push the truth away. They do this. It is not because God makes them do it. It is because they choose to. Paul said the truth of God is put in their hearts by God. So the argument that those who are saved are saved because God specifically put the truth in their hearts is not true but a lie. God according to this scripture puts the truth in every heart ever created on planet Earth and because of his creation no man has an excuse not to turn to him and find salvation. Paul said they have no excuse for not knowing and serving God. NO EXCUSE! This shows that all men can be saved and all men have the choice to be saved and the election of man is not God forcing salvation on certain people or choosing only certain people but man does have a choice to serve God or not to serve God.

 

No. It shows that all men have (and would make by the way) the choice to be condemned inspite of God's revelation of Himself in nature. You are adding to the scripture by asserting that the absolute freedom to choose sin and condemnation necessarily creates an absolute ability to choose salvation without God's direct intervention.

I am not quite sure anyone is saying that God forces salvation on someone. He endows some with the faith to believe but can the thing formed say to Him that formed it "Why hast thou made me thus?". Truly, "Who art thou that repliest against God?".

Romans 8 and 9 and Ephesians 1 make it clear that God does choose the elect. Otherwise, none of us could be saved because left to our own free will we will always choose our ways over God's.

 

'He endows some with the faith to believe . . . '

What a smooth way to say that God is the Divine, Autocratic, Manipulator in matters not of the 'heart' only but in persons destiny for all eternity.

God has Divinely and Autocratically planned for human beings to respond to Him. Christians call this faith. Some yield to Him in faith; others do not. [Hebrews 4:2]. A person having faith in Jesus is not against the Divine revelation, the Bible.

 

Christ died for our salvation. This is what all Christians should believe. It was his blood that cleanses us and saves us. If God predestines man to be saved and to be lost then CHRIST DIED IN VAIN.

The Bible makes it very clear that salvation comes through men hearing the Good news. The gospel message. Not from God instilling some measure of faith to one person and not to another. IF this is true then there is no need for the ministry. Every preacher needs to stop preaching and get a secular job. There is no Great Commission for any one to go out and win the lost because they are going to be lost no matter what. We need to pull all missionaries off the fields and quit paying their expenses.

People take the word ELECT and make a complete false doctrine out of it.

Then we have a prayer Jesus prayed speaking to God about his apostles and a whole doctrine has been intertwined around this one prayer. The prayer where he said no man could remove them from his hand. If you look at this prayer you know he was talking about his apostles because he spoke about the one he lost who was Judas. Alsoin the same prayer he said that he was departing the world and leaving them behind. Who was Christ leaving behind. Future believers? Absolutely not. Yet we have a whole doctrine based on this prayer.

I believe as do most who don't accept OSAS that this doctrine was created to sear the consciences of those who believe this doctrine so they can live any way they want. I know people will get up in arms and say this is not true but sorry I have seen it for years. Those who believe OSAS seem to live more sinful lives then those who do not.

For some reason which is beyond me so many people associates moral rules and regulations with works. They associate sin with works. The Bible does not compare the two and make them equal.

Then I get the argument what happens if a person tells a lie walks out in the street and gets hit by a bus or a truck or something like this. Well God has given us a conscience and the Holy Spirit convicts us immediately when we sin. It takes very little time to ask forgiveness.

Then the question goes how many sins does it take for it to be too many sins and God gets tired of the sinning. This is a ridiculous question.
I don't believe anyone who does not accept OSAS believes what they are accused of believing.

God is not going to take away any ones salvation as long as that person has a repentant heart and there is a little flame still inside of that person. Even if they are away from God most people come back to God. Yet the Bible talks about Blasphemy. It speaks of those who become Apostate. These are those who totally turn away from the truth and reject Christ. The ones who recrucify the son of God afresh. Man has not removed them but they have chosen perdition.

Paul speaking to the Gentiles about the tree and being grafted into it warned them not to boast lest God removed their branches from the tree. I don't know how anyone cannot see what he was saying. People ignore this scripture because it takes away from their OSAS doctrine.

John wrote that if we don't obey his commandments then we don't belong to him. So if we don't obey them because we claim we are under grace and don't have to obey any more commandments who is right here. Those who teach this doctrine or the Apostle John? I say John is correct.

Jesus himself made it very clear that the OSAS doctrine is not right. He said that believers would come before him in the end time and say they had performed miracles etc and he would tell them he never knew them. Sorry but you are not going to convince me these people could perform miracles in Jesus name but never had salvation.

Even the old testament talks about a righteous man turning wicked and losing his soul.

I have waited for years for someone to explain to me if works is not a necessary part of anything then why did Jesus tell people that if they did not take care of the poor, feed them, visit the sick and the afflicted and those in jail in his name that they would be cast into outer darkness.
Why did Jesus say that the one person who hid the talent would be cast into outer darkness if works are not important? No one who teaches Calvinism can explain away these sayings correctly.

Jesus is ignored when he said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. " HE did not say he that believeth shall be saved he added and is baptized shall be saved. Peter said that Baptism doth now save us but Calvinist choose to ignore both the Lords words and the one who held the Keys to the Kingdom. The explanations I have heard don't even make sense.

As Paul said who are we to tell the creator of the universe what it takes for salvation. Who are we to say that Grace is not grace if anything but faith and belief could be necessary? It is grace that the creator of the universe even offers man salvation. It is grace that he even deals with man.

People argue back and forth about baptism. Is it necessary for salvation and now most people say no and they give their reasons. They say water cannot save anyone. THis is true. Yet I think that so many modern day theolgians and scholars have totally gotten away from the teachings about the blood covenant.

 

Can you prove this statement?

In my experience I have not seen any difference. Let's face facts. At the present time in America, most who call themselves Christians are not Christians. They are Christians only in a cultural sense. The same that most people that call themselves Democrats or Republicans are not actually involved in party politics other than voting in a primary or in some marginal way.

You can live with your insecurity and self-reliance, if that is what you want to do. I've been there, done that, bought the t-shirt.

I will stay with the security that Christ Jesus purchased for me and trust Him.

Ken
A Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org

 

Ken Hamilton,

The essence of what you said was this. Christians and sinners are absolutely responsible for their sins.

If God controls everything as Calvinists claim, then God has set the course of the sinner in eternity past, and they are bound only to sin against God without the option of turning from their sins. Note Proverbs 1:24; this contridicts the party line.

 

No one is stopping them from turning to God but themselves. (Haven't I said that before? )

Ken
A Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org

 

I had been away from people who believe OSAS for a long time. The churches I used to attend do not teach this doctrine. I have been attending a church that teaches this doctrine and the things I have experienced is unbelievable.

I have had every member of the ministry in that church lie to me. Deacons who have done the same. My wife has had a business relationship with more than one deacon and they have cheated her more than once.

I know there are gossips in every church but this church is so full of some of the most vicious gossipers I have ever heard and I have heard some doozies.

I have gone to the main service and have had people tell me and my wife we cannot sit somewhere and when we ask if they are saving the place they tell us no but we don't want anyone sitting near us.

They ignore visitors. They don't seem to care about souls. The youth group is a bunch of vicious mouth kids who act more like the world then the world does.

I have seen more modesty at secular functions then I see many times during the summer months at the church.

Guess what they say when they are confronted with the lying, etc. Why do we care. We're going to Heaven anyhow so what does it matter how we live?

 

hrhema,

I submit that is a problem with the people you mention, not the Biblical teaching on the subject of eternal security in Christ Jesus.

Ken
A Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org

 

Do you think that people who really know the Lord act like this? I know there are a few odd people, but when Christ comes into the life He makes them a 'new creation.' [II Cor. 5:17] Not every human being having come under the sound of the Gospel is saved. Not everyone who sits in a Christian Church is really born again. [Matt. 7:21] But, then there is the problem of carnal Christians. Only God always knows the difference between these people. Agreed?

 

I agree totally.

I believe there are the saved and the lost. I do not recognize a third category of the "carnal saved". I submit that if one is carnal, then he is not saved. And, yes, I am aware of the passage in I Corinthians that those who hold to such a third category use.

Ken
A Spurgeonite