Absolute Predestination of ALL THINGS

Howdy (sorry I don't know your name)

We ran through some of this in a previous thread. Here is the link to get you there.

http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=35&t=000056&p=

Jeff Weaver

 

Absolute predestination of all things? No, I don't think so. Take for instance the story of Jacob & Esau. There is no doubt that God determined beforehand that Jacob would rule over his brother (Gen 25:23). The end result was preordained. But did God cause Jacob to perform the actions that brought about that rule? These actions included ruthless bargaining, lying, deceit, and thievery. That God brought about the superiority of Jacob over Esau is clear demonstration of his sovereignty. God brought about the end result regardless of the actions of man. Nothing that Jacob chose to do would change the result that God ordained. However, if God caused Jacob to take the sinful actions he took which resulted in his superiority, then God is the author of Jacob's sin. Furthermore, if God is the author of Jacob's actions, then by definition, Jacob's actions could not be sin. Accurate theology balances God's sovereignty with the fact that God has given man a will. God sovereignly ordained an end result (Jacob will rule over Esau). Jacob made sinful choices. God brought about his sovereign plan. If God was the cause of the means (Jacobs sin) as well as the end result (Jacobs superiority over Esau), then there was no alternative means just as there was no alternative result. This makes God the cause of Jacob's sinful action. The fact is, there was no alternative result; Jacob was to be the superior. But there was alternative means. If Jacob had been an obedient man of faith in the affairs with his brother, the result would have been the same.

 

Scriptur tells us that God is absolutely sovereign; that everthing that occurs happens within the framework of His purpose. Scripture says "God works all things according to the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11). If God were not sovereign over all things, how could we trust His promise that He will ultimately work "all things" together for good (Rom.8:28)?

John Piper has writtten.
This "all things" includes the fall of sparrows (Matt.10:29), the rolling of dice (Prov. 16:33), the slaughter of his people (Psalm 44:11), the decisions of kings (Prov.21:1), the failing of sight (Exodus 4:11), the sickness of children (2 Sam.12:15), the loss and gain of money (1 Sam.2:7), the suffering of saints (1 Peter 4:19), the completion of travel plans (James 4:15), the persecution of Christians (Heb.12:4-7), the repentance of souls (2Tim. 2:25), the gift of faith (Phil.1:29), the pursuit of holiness (Phil.3:12-13), the growth of believers (Heb.6:3), the giving of life and the taking in death (1 Sam. 2:6), and the crucifixion of his Son (Acts 4:27-28).
God Himself says, "My counsel shall stand, and I well do all My pleasure...Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have puposed it; I will also do it (Isaiah 46:10-11).

 

I think it is interesting that some of the statements above by strong calvinists, which are intended to argue for absolute predestination, contain a loophole which contradicts it. For instance, Sovereign Grace said:

and tnelson said:

These statements actually allow for the argument on Jacob & Esau that I made above. God determined the outcome of Jacob & Esau's relationship, but the actions that led to it were based upon the free choice of Jacob. Jacob's sinful practices were made within the framework of God's purpose to make Jacob superior to Esau, but the sinful choices were not caused by God.

 

I don't think nobody has said any different. Nobody ever said every move of the hand was done by God, however, whatever happens is because God made it to be so or allowed it to be. He is in control.

 

Christopher, the phrase "absolute predestination of all things", communicates something very different from my explanation above. It communicates that God predestines all things, even the sinful acts of Jacob. If that is not what you mean by it, great!, there's no disagreement. Personally, I would not use that phrase to describe my belief as it is, at best, misleading. At worst, it means something that is incorrect.

 

Sovereign Grace:
I agree with you, absolutely!!
James2

 

Postees:
God has not predestined all things.Even Man's Salvation is not predestined. Paul wrote In Tim. 2:3-4, "For this is good and aceptable in the sight of God our Savior who would have all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth." Yet the Hebrew writerteaches us that some men will not repent and be saved.( Hebs,6: 6). There will be a number of peope God desired to be saved in Hell. ( Rev. 20:10;21:27.
Frank

 

Hey James2 I guess since you agreed with Sovereign Grace on The Absolute Predestination Of All Things then you couldn't help yourself as it was absolutely predestinated by God what you would say... Brother Glen

 

The God of the Bible is not a sovereign, Divine manipulator of His creatures. These ideas are the flounderings of St. Augustine.

The God of the Bible offers the gift of salvation to humankind. Those who offer their 'filthy rags' to Him and come before Him with a penitant heart are received by Him. Only this kind of response to Him can yield true worship.

God did not decree the fall of the archangel--now the evil one. He did not decree the fall in the garden. He did not decree the fall of Adam and Eve.

A test was placed before each of these creatures and because of their freedom of will, they erred. Any other view makes man merely an automaton. This you suggest is "Absolute Predestination of All Things," a very close cousin to fatalism. These created beings were not encoded on a Divine drawing-board in eternity past. God did, however, know what their response to this testing would be. Only when 'iniquity was found in the archangel' was he ejected from the throne room and kingdom of God. Almighty God did not program him with that 'iniquity' and unbridled pride.

Satan is destined for Hell forever. Only people have the opportunity to be found of Him. God limited His sovereignty by giving that archangel/now devil, and human beings a free will, either to follow after Him in faith, or remain in sin and rebellion.

Dr. Berrian

 

I never said God decreed every single thing that happens. Some things He allowed to happen, as long as they did not conflict with His will because God says, "My counsel shall stand." Again God said he would do all His pleasure in the heavens and among the inhabitants of the earth. To me, that is a sovereign God! God does not make all people sin...He allows them to. Howver, He hardened Pharaoh's heart so they he would not yield to Him. I would say that is sin, wouldn't you? To this I would say, there is a passive will of God which He allows things to occur. And Brother Glenn, I wouldn't be too opposed to this doctrine, as your early Primitive Baptists (the real ones) also taught the absolute predestination of all things.

The Bible says he holds people's hearts in his hands and turns them whithersoever He chooses. This is not the God most Christians worship and adore. Most people go to church to worship a God who can't do anything without the consent of mortals.

"The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will." [Proverbs 21:1]

And yes, God does make bad things happen sometimes.

"Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" [Amos 3:6]

[ April 18, 2002, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: Historic Baptist ]

 

Ray,

Where does the Bible say that God limited His sovereignty in order to give man a free will? That's garbage!

 

Historic Baptist,

We don't need Greek scholars for Romans 9:17. God is not saying that He decreed Pharaoh's final destination to Hell. Read the English. ‘Even for this purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show My power in thee, and that My Name might be declared throughout all the earth.' God was only proving that His power through the plagues was greater than this formidable prince among men. If you think Hebrew scholars will advance your view, please check with them about Exodus 9:16.

There is no autocratic selection of Pharaoh to Hell in either the New or Old Testament passages.

I am sure you have highlighted in your Bible all the passages where God hardened Pharaoh's heart so I won't jot them down for you. But, also review these passages.

[Exodus 8:15, 19, 32] (Exodus 9:7, 34, 35) {I Samuel 6:6}

Respectfully,

Dr. Berrian

 

rsr, I, too, think there is much confusion as to what different people mean by "absolute predestination." I have always heard it in the context of "all things, both good and evil." I am posting a quote that is interesting in light of this discussion.