confused about Calvin (Page 21) Round two

Salvation from "WHAT", the "Body of sin", only when your spirit (soul) leaves the "Body of sin" will you be liberated from sin.

The salvation of being taken out of your "body of sin" is nearer today than it was yesterday, that's what being said in that verse,

you'll "NEVER" be "MORE SAVED" tomorrow than you were "Yesterday".

I'd say he "believed and ask", that's all that is needed.

And this was "BEFORE" the "Comforter" came.

Believe/repent/ask, you're saved.

Ro 10:9 That....IF.... thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

There's "WHOSOEVER WILL" spelled "IF".

Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: ....IF.... any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

"WHO" opens the "door", man or Jesus????

 

RO 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men...

Is that a finer point?

john. </font>[/QUOTE]Why don't ya take it to the "NEXT STEP", the "Gift" of freedom from sin is offer to as many as were made sinner by Adam, IF they believed in Jesus.

Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;

even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Calvin denies that the Second "All men" equal the same number as the first "All men",

therefore, God didn't love the whole world, (Joh 3:16), Jesus "DID" come to condemn the world,

and "DIDN'T" die for the sins of the "WHOLE WORLD" so the whole world "MIGHT BE" saved,

Because God has "created/predestine" some to hell just to vent his angry/wrath on, God "NEVER LOVED" them from the beginning.

Ro 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Are you going to accuses God of violating his own law and "working ill" toward some people through predestination, and deny the God of Joh 3:16, and the "TOTAL SCOPE" of Jesus's mission to earth, as stated in the scriptures???

False doctrine have one thing in common, they never include all the pieces of the correct doctrine, a few verses taken out of context, is pieced together and any verses which contradicts is, "forgotten".

The same God who told us to "pray for our enemies", (unsaved) do good to/for them, because "LOVE" fulfills the law, is now accused of being the "opposite image" of what we're suppose to "Reflect".

"Dumb decisions" are a lack of "Common Sense" to work out a problem within it's parmeters to a "FINAL/ABSOLUTE" answer,

but then "Common sense" is a "Biblical understanding" of the world, and that "ignorance" is manifested "Everywhere" in "Everything" today, evidence of the "Falling away".

 

Salvation from "WHAT", the "Body of sin", only when your spirit (soul) leaves the "Body of sin" will you be liberated from sin.

The salvation of being taken out of your "body of sin" is nearer today than it was yesterday, that's what being said in that verse,

you'll "NEVER" be "MORE SAVED" tomorrow than you were "Yesterday".
</font>[/QUOTE]You are more right here than you know. My point is that "salvation from the body of sin" is included in the biblical term salvation.

You keep equating salvation with justification. Justification is only part of salvation. You will never be more justified than you were the day you "got saved." But salvation involves more than just justification (as I have said more than once). You have to look at the entirety of what the Bible says about the subject. I gave 7-8 verses that show both an ongoing and a future aspect of salvation, not to mention the plethora of verses that involve a one-time event.

Sanctification if a part of salvation. Salvation is a broad category in the Scripture. Sanctification is a process in the life of someone who has already been justified (declared righteous). Sanctification involves the process of us becoming more and more righteous on a daily basis. Glorification is a part of salvation. Glorification is an instantaneous act of God whereby we are immediately made completely righteous when Christ returns.

All of these (as well as election, predestination, calling, regeneration, repentance, and faith) are involved in and necessary parts of salvation as it is described in the Bible. Therefore, salvation is a process.

STOP EQUATING SALVATION WITH JUSTIFICATION. You really must get over that and learn to use the words the way the Bible uses them, not the way modern preachers use them.

 

Surely you deny the same thing, don't you? This verse does not say THE OFFER of justification came upon all men by the righteousness of one. It says justification came upon all men. This means that through the death of Christ all men (whoever that is) were declared righteous before God. This is what justification means. Again, get your terms correct.

You either have to believe that the "all men" doesn't mean everyone who has ever lived, or you have to believe that everyone ends up in heaven. Your point about this verse doesn't lead you to universal atonement (which is what you are trying to do) it leads to universal salvation. You are making yourself a Unitarian, which I don't think you want to do.

 

Excerpt from David Cloud's "Calvin's Camels"

I agree with Brother Cloud and with the Word of God. Calvinism is making the Word of God more complicated that what it is.

 

Salvation is justification, salvation justifies, it's not something you get "later on".

Who doesn't God elect to save, those of "unbelief", if God's will is "Sovereign" how do you explain some perishing when Scripture plainly states the God wasn't "WILLING" for any to perish????

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

And does that match with the stated position/view of God toward the world (loved the world) and the stated purpose/goal of Jesus's mission to the world. (dying for all sins, whole world might be saved)

"LOVE" fulfills the law, but "predestination" makes God out to be a "SINNER" because he doesn't "LOVE THE WHOLE WORLD".

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The offer of "WHOSOEVER WILL" is a "LIE" if "Sovereign Will" exist.

De 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;

27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:

28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God,

Jos 24:15 choose you this day whom ye will serve;

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

People have been held accountable/judged for the decision they've made since the "beginning",

but calvin said, Oh no, we don't have the "FREE WILL" to chose between God/Satan, the choice is not man's, but God's, however God will Judge/condemn "unbelief" as if it was the person's fault through "predestination".

God doesn't operate a "Kangaroo Court", as Judge, he's totally "unbias" in issuing his decisions based on belief/unbelief, of which the "Defendant" is "TOTALLY RESPONSIBLE".

to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;

As said, You have to put "ALL THE PIECES" in the puzzle (doctrine) to get a clear picture.

I'd suggest learning a little about "LAW", "JUSTICE", and especially why "lady law" is "Blindfolded".

 

You know, it is almost not worth responding to you because you don't pay attention. Biblically and Theologically, salvation includes more than just justification. No it is not something you get "later on" if by that you mean "you get saved and then are justified later." That was the Catholic view of progressive justification and was rejected by all the Reformers, including Calvin.

But justification is not all there is in salvation. It is only a part. If you were only justified, but never sanctified, you would never end up in heaven because you must not only be declared holy but also be holy to see the Lord (Heb. 12:14). If you were only justified but never glorified, you could never enter heaven because your flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 15:50). These are all part of the broad category in Scripture called salvation. Therefore, I say again, it is a process.

Have you ever read Romans 9? God says (this is a quote, unlike what you typically do), "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

What is Paul's conclusion to this statement?

Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Notice he says it is not of him who wills or of him who runs (exerts). What happened to man's free will? God's mercy is not dependant on man's will but wholely on God.

How do you explain it? Is God's WILL ever thwarted? If God truly desires something will it not happen? Psalm 115:3 and Psalm 135:6 clearly say that God does whatever he pleases in heaven and on earth. If it pleases God that everyone gets saved, why is not everyone saved? HINT - human will cannot override God's will according to Scripture.

This verse is difficult for anyone. For the Calvinist it is difficult to explain God's desire that all come to repentance with Scriptures teaching that God did not elect everyone. For the Arminian it is difficult to explain God's desire that all come to repentance with the obvious fact that not everyone comes to repentance while still maintaining the Scriptural truth that no one can "stay His hand."

What about the command in 1 John that tells us to not love the world? Obviously the word is used in different ways in different contexts.

A little Greek lesson here. The words translated "whosoever will" are ho pisteuown. Literally it is "the believing ones." This is not an offer to all of humanity on equal footing before God that if they exercise their free will and choose to believe they will have everlasting life. It is a statement that everyone who believes will have eternal life. Nothing more, nothing less.

Let me ask you a question: When God gives a command, does that necessitate that we have the ability to obey that command on our own?

This is not denied by any Calvinist that has ever lived. The point is that EVERYONE apart from a special grace of God follows their choices away from God and to the pit of hell.

There you go pulling a Calvin quote out of your hat that he never said. Where is your reference for this?

I'm not sure how this verse relates to your point. Romans 6 is dealing with sanctification (which is a part of the process of salvation , not justification. In reference to your courtroom analogy, you are correct. God is totally unbiased and His decisions are based on belief/unbelief, of which the "Defendant" is "TOTALLY RESPONSIBLE." I think I got the quote right. And the Bible (from the lips of Jesus, Paul and John) tells us that everyone is guilty and no one can choose Him unless the Father draws him. All that the Father draws will come to Him, so it is not a universal wooing of the Holy Spirit. That's in John 6, by the way.

I'm not sure what you mean by this...

 

You know, it is almost not worth responding to you because you don't pay attention. </font>[/QUOTE]I warned you brother.

 

This is the biggest load of confusion and misususe of Scripture I have read on the BB.

If you are justified...YOU ARE GOING TO HEAVEN!!! Sanctification is God setting those who are justified apart for His work. To claim that if one is justified, but not sanctified they will not be in Heaven is pure insanity.

If you are justified...YOU ARE ASSURED OF BEING GLORIFIED!!!

Please put all of you theological scholarly achievements back on the shelf and learn basic Bible 101. Salvation is NOT a process. It is a gift given of God

 

This is the biggest load of confusion and misususe of Scripture I have read on the BB.

If you are justified...YOU ARE GOING TO HEAVEN!!! Sanctification is God setting those who are justified apart for His work. To claim that if one is justified, but not sanctified they will not be in Heaven is pure insanity.

If you are justified...YOU ARE ASSURED OF BEING GLORIFIED!!!</font>[/QUOTE]But don't you see that this is my point!!!! If you are justified you will be glorified. And all of that is included under the word salvation.

I was using a ridiculous statement to point out the ridiculous. To imagine someone who is justified yet not sanctified is ludricous. Yet sanctification is part of salvation (as the verses I listed show). To imagine someone who is justified yet will not be glorified is also ludicrous. Yet glorification is also a part of salvation.

So what else do you call something that begins in eternity past and culminates with our glorification but a process. It is a process that God does but it is a process none-the-less.

Again, justification is not a process. Is sanctification a process? Yes. Is sanctification a part of salvation? Yes. THEREFORE, salvation involves a process.

I will ignore your rude comment about my supposed theological scholarly achievements, because they don't matter at all. My father-in-law, who does not have a college degree has more biblical knowledge than most people I know.

 

CalviBaptist and Joseph, thanks for your responses. I dont know much about Calvanism but have been following this thread. Your comments were helpful.

 

Quickened1, the thread is helping me as well. I always enjoy discussing theology to refine my views with the Scriptures. And with the people I see here already, I can tell I'm going to get some good refining done

 

Aren't we all???

I use these forums to help me "think through" what I believe, why I believe it, and how to prove it.

Understanding the view point of others helps me view my belief from different perspectives.

 

"AMEN".

 

Me4Him...if you don't answer like they want you too they get confused and can't build thier strawman and don't have a pat answer that they have been trained to answer. Just like a JW.