"Is it ever right to do wrong?"

What an intriguing question! I know what I would say, but I want to see other peoples responses first.

Until Next Post, Adam

 

"It is never right to do wrong, in order to get a chance to do right." Dr. Bob Jones Sr.

 

I think there is a difference in being Godly and doing right by God's standards, and doing "right" by man's standards.

 

I don't know what I would do unless I was in that situation, but I think I would probably end up lying in that situation.

By the way, have you ever seen the movie Sleepers? What would you have done if you were the priest?

[ October 07, 2001: Message edited by: SaggyWoman ]

 

The solution being advanced to the Nazi/Jew scenario is based on some false premises.

First, there is no such thing as a heirarchy of laws in God's revelation. There is no situation in which it is OK to break a "lesser" command in order to keep a "greater" command. Rather, James teaches that law in its totality is an indivisible unit. Whoever "offends in one point is guilty of all." Kind of like a piece of fine china. It's either whole or its broken, there is no in-between. Breaking the law at all is still breaking the law.

The second false premise is that we could ever be in a situation in which God "forces" us to sin. Again, James says "God cannot be tempted with evil, neither does he tempt any man." Also, Paul teaches that any temptation we face is "common to man" and that "God is faithful and will with the temptation make a way of escape that you may be able to bear it." God never forces me to sin.

So, when the Nazi's come, I do not have to sin. In that situation, there are more choices than "lie to the Nazi's or tell the Nazi's." Whatever the course of action, I can obey God and trust him for the consequences.

 

Well, let's look more closely at the Ninth Commandment: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't see anything in there that condemns Rahab's actions or the actions of the Egyptian midwives who intentionally misled Pharoah's officers in order to save innocent life, Exodus 1:17-22.

In fact, as was mentioned before, Rahab's "lying" was an act a faith as stated in Hebrews 11, and was therefore a fulfillment of the true nature and scope of the Ninth Commandment which is to love thy neighbor as thyself.

We have a duty, as faithful children of God, to intentionally mislead evildoers so that the innocent whom they seek to devour may escape.

[ October 07, 2001: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

I see what you're saying but I think you are mixing apples and oranges. Walking across the street is not an immoral activity. J-Walking is merely walking across the street. But walking across the street is regulated in the interest of public order and general safety, thus j-Walking is not allowed. In the case of a child hit by a car, J-Walking becomes a regulation which hurts public safety rather than helps it, so the law is suspended in that case. Lying is not in the same class as j-walking. Lying is a moral standard that is an absolute. Lying is a direct affront to the character of God. There is never a justification for lying in any situation. As for Jesus and the sabbath. Jesus never broke the Sabbath for that would have been an affront to the pattern God set when he rested on the seventh day (and since Jesus is the creator he would have been sinning against himself; an impossibility when you think about it). What Jesus did was break the regulations the Pharisees had built around the sabbath; regulations that God never gave. In doing this, he offended the Pharisees, but he did not sin against God.

 

Aaron, here is what Heb 11 says:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is nothing in this verse about her being justified for telling a lie. She was justified "by faith." She believed the revelation she had about God and because she believed she acted on their behalf. Remember she did not have the law and the knowledge of God's standard. Rahab is an example of faith. Making her an example of biblical morality is is not wise--especially given her participation in the world's oldest profession!

 

I didn't say that Rahab lied. If you will look closely you will see that the word is in quotes, which means it is not to be taken litterally. Neither does the Bible say that Rahab lied. It says she hid the messengers.

Joshua saved Rahab because she hid the spies, Joshua 6:17, 25.

Hebrews 11:31, By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

James 2:25, Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

I don't separate Rahab's deception of God's enemies from the act of hiding the spies. Neither does God. It's one and the same.

Anyway, you can wrestle with this ethical "dilemma" all you want.

 

Hear, Hear! I believe in the spirit of the law, rather than the letter of the law, almost to the point of seemingly being disobedient to many.

Sleepers is a movie about four boys who lived in Hell's Kitchen (I guess in NYC) as young teens, I think during the 60's. As altar boys, they were good friends with the priest, who worked with many boys in that parish trying to help make sure they grew up with a good man figure in their lives.

The boys did some things that weren't right, (stealing hot dogs from a street vendor) and through the course of trying to get away with this event that they had done many times before, they ended up killing a man. They were sentenced to juvevnile detention for 18 months. At this facility, they were sexually abused .. .

Years later, as the story goes, two of the four boys end up involved in serious crimes. One becomes a reporter, the other a lawyer. They keep minor contact with each other.

The two involved in serios crime happen to be in a bar one night and they run across the officer in the prison who was a leader in abusing them. They kill him.

As the courts try these to men for this murder, it was the lawyer's (yeah, I think he became the district attourney) deal to try to get them off. His reasoning was it was payback time for this man who abused these four boys and many others.

The priest's story comes in when he was asked to provide an alibi for the two men who killed the abuser. . . the same two men who he cared for when they were altar boys.

What should the priest do?

[ October 07, 2001: Message edited by: SaggyWoman ]

 

Don't take anything I said as justification for letting the guilty go free. God would not have rewarded Rahab or the Egyptian midwives had they lied to let the guilty off the hook.

 

Larry,
Is it any surprise that God, the sovereign of the universe, uses evil to accomplish his purposes? After all, he used lying, deceit, and murder in his sovereign plan to bring about the death of Christ, and thus the offer of salvation to the world. The difference is that God is soveriegn and you and I are not. If I lie, I play God. I say, "God, I know you are sovereign and in control of all things, but I am in a situation which will not turn out right if I obey you, so I am going to take your place. I am going to lie and take control of the situation and its results myself." This is what the Nazi/Jew scenario as you have constructed it demands of us. It says that you are in a position in which you cannot obey God. So be your own god and lie. I'm sorry my friend, I just don't think that is what we should do.

 

I won't be running to your house for protection!

 

LOL


I wouldn't tell a soul if you did!

 

Where does faith play into all of this? Does anyone believe this verse?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Will God or will God not provide a way out if we do not lie? Easier said then done I know, but if you are so certain you must lie maybe you are placing too much value on life here on this earth.

If you are doing something so noble as to hide the Jews from the Nazi's, are you willing to give your life for that cause? You do have the option not to "tell" them anything. That is not a lie, but your silence could mean your own death, while the Jews will still live. You have kept your promise to them and obeyed God.

The Apostles did not lie thier way out of situations and they ended up in jail or dead. How much do you believe in what you are doing? Do you truly trust God that you can do what is right always. He will provide a way to follow the honest path if you trust enough in Him to do so. If that means death here, then it means a glorious life in His prescence for evermore.

~Lorelei