"Is it ever right to do wrong?"

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by swaimj:
LOL


I wouldn't tell a soul if you did!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What if they asked?

 

I can only speculate on what I might do in a hypothetical situation. I might say nothing. That was what Jesus did at his trial. He did not open his mouth. If the situation is bathed in prayer, one might even offer to let them look. God could hide you from the eyes of the men if it was his will. As you can see, my response is fairly passive. I believe we should put such matters in God's hands and not take them into our own and act in sinful ways. Let me challenge you in your thinking on this matter. What if the three Hebrew children had taken matters into their own hands when told to worship the false idol. They could have rationalized and said "hey, we can bow down. That doesn't mean we are worshipping the idol in our hearts. God knows our hearts and will forgive us." Instead they simply obeyed and God protected them. God was not obligated to protect them, but he did. We ought to live our lives ot obey God's commands regardless of the consequences rather than live to preserve our own lives. Just my thinking on this.

 

Hi there,

Here's my two cents: right and wrong are relative terms. They are chameleons that change with the environment. The best way to judge doing wrong for the sake of right is to look at 1 Corinthians 10:23-11:1. Since it is God's Word it does not change.

The message is this: follow Christ's example and remember that others are watching your "Godly life" as a standard to live by.

You can do anything you want, but prayerfully weigh the benefits against the costs. Are they worth it in the long-term scheme of things? Remember that if it is not explicitly stated in scripture, you must judge your own freedom, and just hope and pray that when you face Jesus you find out that you thought in the correct way.

If after much prayer, it "feels" wrong, don't do it. End of story. If you think a seemingly harmless wrong action could develop into a bad thing in the hands of a more immature brother or sister, for the sake of the other man's conscience don't do it.

I hope this helps some.

I Love all of you for loving my Jesus!

 

Is it bearing false witness against thy neighbor to mislead evil men who intend to do violence to the innocent?

That's the question.

I totally object to the post above that says basically that right or wrong depends on how you feel at the time in the situation and whether or not the outcome is beneficial.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron:
[QB]Is it bearing false witness against thy neighbor to mislead evil men who intend to do violence to the innocent?

That's the question.

QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess that may depend on how far "bearing false witness" goes.

I sincerely believe that you can mislead evil men without while still not doing wrong.

Besides, I'm not sure it is our duty to "mislead evil men" except by telling them that they are wrong and that they need to have a personal relationship with Jesus.

God will handle the rest.

God Bless you all the time!

 

Swaimj:

You wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>There is never a justification for lying in any situation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did the Eqyptian midwives have a justification for lying to Pharoah's officers in Exodus 1:17-22?

 

Aaron:

You wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I didn't say that Rahab lied.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did Rahab lie in Joshua 2:5? Yes or no?

"And it happened when it was dark, at the time of shutting the gate, the men went out. Where the men went I do not know. Go after them quickly, for you shall overtake them."

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Did the Eqyptian midwives have a justification for lying to Pharoah's officers in Exodus 1:17-22?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


No, they didn't.

 

Swaimj:

What were the Egyptian midwives supposed to do other than what they did?

[ October 09, 2001: Message edited by: Jefferson ]

 

Swaimj:

Did the U.S. government "sin" by lying to the Germans in World War 2 about when and where we would invade?

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Proverbs 6:16
These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17
A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18
An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19
A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Proverbs 26:28
A lying tongue hateth those that are afflicted by it; and a flattering mouth worketh ruin. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
9
Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Hebrews 6:18 it was impossible for God to lie <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Proverbs calls lying an abomination to God. God can not lie, so why would His Holy Spirit cause us to lie to do the works of a perfect God?

I am not saying that I would be perfect and not lie, I don't know what I would really do in that position, but I do know what I should do.

Larry,

Are you sinning? Search the scriptures and see how much the Bible talks about Truth and lies. Finding creative ways to share the gospel is a good thing. I know your intentions are to do good. I understand that you truly want to do something to make a difference, but let me ask you to look and see if you think you are really helping or hurting the gospel.

Put yourself in thier shoes, you are looking for a Christian site and someone thought they would be funny and made a site called "all about God". When you click on it you are suddenly looking at nothing but filthy porn. Would you find that funny? Would you actually stay and see what they wanted you to accidentally find? I would get out of there and fast and would be very angry.
If someone is searching for porn and come across a site that is Christian, I think they would be quick to click out of it and be angry at "Christians" for trying to force themselves on them. It could make thier heart a little bit harder. I don't believe we should ever use false methods to preach the gospel.

Remember what Jesus said about himself.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it is wrong to use a lie to point others to the Truth. Jesus is Truth, there is no lie in Him, therefore he doesn't need our lies to get others to listen about Him.

~Lorelei

 

Jefferson,
God chose to use the dishonesty for his purpose, but he could have accomplished it apart from the lies. You have to put the women in the context of their times, though. At that time, the law had not been given. By your reasoning, some would say, "Hey, Abraham had more than one wife and so did other OT characters like David, so it must be OK." God blessed these people in spite of their imperfections not because of them. He saved them because of their faith, not because of their sin.

As for the govt, I think in times of war there is justification for a government to practice deception. Similarly, a government may be just in killing thousands of people in war. That does not justify my murdering someone and it does not make it just for me to tell a lie.

Larry,
I don't want to offend you, but I think you are wrong to attract people to your web-site under false pretenses. My duty in life is to honor God and live for his glory. A part of doing that is to share the good news of the gospel with others. How far are you willing to take your ethic? Would you tattoo "Jesus Saves" on your backside and go streaking? Hey, people would defintely see the message if you did! The problem is that it would not glorify God. It would be a source of humour for the world and a source of embarrassment to other Christians. Your zeal is great, but the ethic you are following is misguided.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by swaimj:
As for the govt, I think in times of war there is justification for a government to practice deception.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let's call a spade a spade swaimj. Didn't you really mean to say that you think in times of war there is justification for a government to "lie?"

Why is it O.K. for people to lie in war to try to save people's temporal lives but it's not O.K. to lie to try to save their eternal lives?

 

Because government is given resposibility and authority that is not given to the individual.

 

Situational ethics? Here is a situation in the Bible. The Law commanded not to touch the Ark. But a situation arose that seemed only appropriated to break this commandment.

2 Sam 6:6-7
When they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah reached out and took hold of the ark of God, because the oxen stumbled. The LORD's anger burned against Uzzah because of his irreverent act; therefore God struck him down and he died there beside the ark of God.
NIV

What we think is right is not always right. And a way to witness to people is the right way without deceit.

Let me ask you Jefferson, if I thought I could have a good opportunity to win someone for eternity to the Lord by simply committing adultery would that be O.K.? How about if I did someone a favor by murdering their enemy, would that cause them to listen to me more? Could I do that?

Prov 14:5
A truthful witness does not deceive,
but a false witness pours out lies.
NIV

Chet

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by swaimj:
Because government is given resposibility and authority that is not given to the individual.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes and "For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required" (Luke 12:48) therefore if it is a sin for an individual to lie then it is a greater sin for a government to lie. Therefore my question remains, "Did the U.S. government sin when they lied to the Nazis?"

My belief that they did not sin is logically consistent. But your belief that they did not sin is contradictory with your own beliefs.

 

Lorelei, swaimj, Dr. Bob, Chet:

Have any one of you ever "accidentally" left a gospel tract or a book on Christian apologetics lying around the house in hopes that an unsaved family member would be intrigued by the cover and pick it up, read it, and hopefully get saved?

Most Christians have done something very similar to this at least once. Well guess what? That's called "lying". "Oops, I 'accidentally' forgot to pick up after myself. Oh, forgetful me. Did I leave Henry Morris' book, 'The Biblical Basis for Modern Science' on the coffee table again?" I'm so "forgetful."

Are you guys trying to tell me that none of you have ever done anything like that? Before you answer, remember, lying is a sin.

 

Jefferson,

I can honestly tell you that I haven't, because after all, I don't use tracks. I prefer the Bible and I am not too ashamed to hide the fact. I offer them to any friend that does not have one. It's almost an ongoing joke with one friend, he will often say, you aren't still reading that "book" are you? And I offer him one again, or invite him to church or ask him if he wants to read it with me? He knows where I stand and we still love each other. I witness when I can and just stay his friend when I can not (silent witness), but I can tell you this, he would see right through your deceiptfulness and I would get an email saying "see told ya they were hypocrites". Another such friend just LOVES to email my husband those types of things!

Now, have I EVER lied about anything. Of course I have, I am not perfect and I never said I was...however when I do lie, I know it is wrong. It's plain and simple, lying is wrong according to the Word of God. Because we are human and sin by lying God will forgive us and God's will can still be done in spite of our lies and lack of faith. Saying that I have lied does not make it right.

Let me ask you a question...do you get what we are saying at all????

~Lorelei