"Is it ever right to do wrong?"

Thanks for your reply Lorelei.

Dr. Bob?

swaimj?

Chet?

What are your answers?

 

No, I have not left tracts lying around accidentally or otherwise unless you count going knocking on doors and leaving them. Have I ever lied? Sure. Jefferson, let me share with you a source of my conviction on this matter. I taught 7-8th graders in school several years back. For Bible class, we went through the life of David in the OT. Look through his life sometime and trace the lies and deception in which he engaged. Some might seem justifiable or harmless by themselves. Start with the lie he told to try to find out if Saul was trying to kill him. As time went on, the lies became more serious and the results became tragic, even deadly. And all of this was in his younger days before he became king. I walked away--and the kids did too, firmly convinced that lying is not God's will.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lorelei:
Where does faith play into all of this? Does anyone believe this verse?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You quoted, "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man . . ."

Lying in order to save someone (either physically or spiritually) is not a sin therefore the verse you quoted does not apply. I've never been "tempted" to lie in my witnessing efforts. I lie because I see Biblical warrant for it. No "temptation" has ever been involved.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> . . . if you are so certain you must lie maybe you are placing too much value on life here on this earth.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you are so cerain that you must never lie in any circumstance (no matter how many lives it would save) then maybe you are placing too much value on legalism. Please explain how your straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel glorifies God.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If you are doing something so noble as to hide the Jews from the Nazi's, are you willing to give your life for that cause?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My life, yes. But not the life of the Jews I was hiding. I would be giving up both of our lives if I didn't lie to the Nazis.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You do have the option not to "tell" them anything. That is not a lie, but your silence could mean your own death,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My silence would be the same thing as admitting that I was hiding them. It would result in them searching every square inch of my house.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>while the Jews will still live.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

After the Nazis search every square inch of my house (because of my suspicious silence) they would of course find the Jews. Why do you think the Jews would live?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You have kept your promise to them and obeyed God.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be obeying legalism which is disobedience to God.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The Apostles did not lie thier way out of situations<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's because lying in those situations would have resulted in the Apostle's own benefit. It is biblical to lie in order to save the life of someone else. Therefore, the verse you quote does not contradict my position.

[ October 12, 2001: Message edited by: Jefferson ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by swaimj:
What if the three Hebrew children had taken matters into their own hands when told to worship the false idol. They could have rationalized and said "hey, we can bow down. That doesn't mean we are worshipping the idol in our hearts. God knows our hearts and will forgive us."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This would have been a sin because they would have been lying in order to protect their own lives, not the lives of someone else. God would not be glorified in this lie. However, when my lies result in people becoming God's children, then God is glorified therefore those lies are biblical.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>We ought to live our lives ot obey God's commands regardless of the consequences rather than live to preserve our own lives.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't lie to preserve my own life. I lie only when it will bring glory to God.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Larry:
Some of the names to my web pages are:

“…LookingtoLust/…” “… Warning Extremely Graphic Content/….”

Am I sinning?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. You are glorifying God. Keep up the good work Larry.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Seeing as how thousands and thousands die lost, and condemned to screaming and kicking and flailing in a lake of fire for eternity, and only believing the Gospel will save them I’m going to keep my pages open.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen!

[ October 12, 2001: Message edited by: Jefferson ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jefferson:
Aaron:

You wrote:



Did Rahab lie in Joshua 2:5? Yes or no?

"And it happened when it was dark, at the time of shutting the gate, the men went out. Where the men went I do not know. Go after them quickly, for you shall overtake them."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jefferson:
Aaron:

You wrote:



Did Rahab lie in Joshua 2:5? Yes or no?

"And it happened when it was dark, at the time of shutting the gate, the men went out. Where the men went I do not know. Go after them quickly, for you shall overtake them."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No.

 

Jefferson,

You are leaving the standards of God and following your own standard. You are left to
make discussions as to when it is right to lie or not lie. I trust the Bible. I trust that is works all the time in all situations and I am not left to make those types of judgments.

But there are times that as humans we tend to think we are a bit wiser than God.
Sometimes we fall into the trap of thinking God wouldn’t care if we lied in this
situation or that surly He will understand. Then we make up terminologies such as a white lie, and try to justify it as you are trying so hard to do. You are simply fooling yourself if you think that your lies or deceitful methods are going to win more people to Christ than those who are honest and forthcoming, declaring the whole council of God sharing with them the true Gospel allowing then the Spirit of God to draw them. The whole idea that T-shirt mentality type of witness with a pornographic mask is not found in the
Scripture and you can’t find any warrant for your actions other than looking to the flesh. Lying is what lost people are to do. That method is left for the worldly. We are the Saints of God and we are a light to them, never having to rely on such methods again. We have been given a greater true standard, one that works.

And your question is really a silly one. You have not provided Scriptural support for your view, but have relied on a straw man. Do I accidentally leave books around? No I don’t. Everyone that knows me knows my belief’s and if they want a book they know I will be the first person to order for them their very own copy. That is the Christian character they know, not a deceitful guy trying to trick them into reading some material by accident. And if I want them to read something I plainly ask, will you read this? No tricks involved.
So my answer to your question is a big NO. But along with all the other honest Christians who admit they do have a nature that lies, I too am ashamed to also say I fall into that category. But that does not mean its justifiable.

Prov 12:22
The LORD detests lying lips,
but he delights in men who are truthful.
NIV

Jefferson ever notice the phrase (except for...) after any verse that plainly says lying is wrong?


With love,

Chet

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jefferson:
Lying in order to save someone (either physically or spiritually) is not a sin therefore the verse you quoted does not apply<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My Bible does not say that. My Bible calls lying an "abomination" (Proverbs 6). As Chet pointed out, no where do I see the phrase "(except for...)". (Amen on your post Chet!)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jefferson:
maybe you are placing too much value on legalism<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe you are not placing enough faith in God.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jefferson:

That would be obeying legalism which is disobedience to God<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lying is disobedient to God.

Jefferson,

How many Jews have you hid from the Nazi's? How many lies have you told?

Larry,

I guess what we need to look at is this. Do your titles, pages and search materials actually "lie". I still cringe on the "deceptiveness" that is inferred by it though.

I do so appreciate that you are truly seeking to reach the lost and that "if I’m looking at this wrong. I want to start looking at it right". Amen to that!

My suggestion. Do some study on this in the Word and be in prayer about it. I will do just what you asked and ponder this for a bit. We know that even us Christians suffer with this too sometimes. Maybe we can all put our heads together and find some internet ministry that WILL glorify God and reach those who are in this trap! I will pray that God will lead you to do the right thing, in the right way and that somehow through His guidance be able to make a difference!

~Lorelei

 

Larry,
The answer to the question in Rom 3:7 is found in Rom 3:8

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And why not say, "Let us do evil that good may come"?-as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Paul is not justifying doing wrong to achieve good, he is condemning it.

[ October 13, 2001: Message edited by: swaimj ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by swaimj:
You have to put the women in the context of their times, though. At that time, the law had not been given.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even if the law had been given then, they still would not have violated it because the 9th commandment says, "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor." Who were the women bearing false witness against?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>By your reasoning, some would say, "Hey, Abraham had more than one wife and so did other OT characters like David, so it must be OK."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How does this resemble my reasoning? My reasoning is that the Bible nowhere condemns lying in order to protect innocent life. The Bible does however condemn Adultery.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>He saved them because of their faith, not because of their sin.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But they didn't sin.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chet:
Let me ask you Jefferson, if I thought I could have a good opportunity to win someone for eternity to the Lord by simply committing adultery would that be O.K.? How about if I did someone a favor by murdering their enemy, would that cause them to listen to me more? Could I do that?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What verse of scripture could anyone use to support those actions? There is, however, scripture to support lying in order to save lives.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
"It is never right to do wrong in order to get a chance to do right." [Other Dr. Bob]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, but lying in order to save innocent lives is not wrong, therefore your quote does not apply to me.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lorelei:
Let me ask you a question...do you get what we are saying at all????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I understand your legalism completely. I used to be a legalist myself.

[ October 13, 2001: Message edited by: Jefferson ]

 

Aaron:

I asked:

Did Rahab lie in Joshua 2:5? Yes or no?

"And it happened when it was dark, at the time of shutting the gate, the men went out. Where the men went I do not know. Go after them quickly, for you shall overtake them."

You replied:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>No.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please explain how this was not a lie.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chet:
Jefferson,

You are leaving the standards of God and following your own standard.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, please. I'm not quoting enough scripture for you?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>But there are times that as humans we tend to think we are a bit wiser than God.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, and those times usually end up with man-made legalistic rules like "never lie under any circumstances no matter how many verses there are to the contrary."

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Sometimes we fall into the trap of thinking God wouldn’t care if we lied in this
situation or that surly He will understand.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But God does care. He wants us to lie if it will result in saving lives. This is what the Bible shows.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Larry:
[QB]Ok yall, I’m temporarily shutting down my sites.QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Larry, please don't become a legalist. The church has way too many of them already.

 

Jefferson,

If we come to the event in question with the world's morality, then, yes, it was a lie.

But what is God's take on the situation? Is this what God was talking about when He said, "Thou shalt not bear false witness against they neightbor?" Is this what He is talking about when He says that a lying tongue is an abomination to Him?

I don't believe so. That's just my opinion.