"Is it ever right to do wrong?"

This is an interesting thread I have mostly ignored until tonight. Rahab most definitely did lie about the Israelite spies, and yet she is among those acknowledged for her faith in Hebrews. So now, does the course of this discussion turn Clinton-style on what the word "lie" means? If her words were not the type of lying forbidden by God-- or "bearing false witness against one's neighbor," if you will-- that would mean it is alright to mislead with a false statement if the objectives of one's enemies is thwarted. There is no difference between terming it that way and saying "I do not see the phrase 'except for...'"

At any rate, there is not getting around the fact that Rahab lied. If you hold the position that under absolutely no circumstances is anyone to lie, then you must believe it was evil for Rahab to abet the Israelites. Furthermore, there are no exception clauses (that I have found) from God himself about sparing anyone living in the cities Israel will conquer other than to take them as slaves or livestock; thus sparing Rahab and her house is a violation of Deuteronomy 20:16. Joshua's words to spare Rahab are recorded only as his own, when God had said to destroy everyone.

 

Everyone, please consider the following arguments:

1.) Did Elisha sin when he lied in 2nd Kings 6:19? No verse in this chapter says he sinned.

2.) Did David's wife sin when she lied in First Samuel 19:13-14 and 19:17? No verse in this chapter says she sinned.

3.) Did Joshua and his army sin when they lied in Joshua 8:15? No verse in this chapter says they sinned.

4.) Did Rahab sin when she lied in Joshua 2:5? No verse in this chapter says she sinned.

5.) Did the Egyptian midwives sin when they lied in Exodus 1:19? No verse in this chapter says they sinned.

6.) Will God be sinning in 2nd Thessalonians 2:11?

Legalists don't know how to deal with Jesus' words in Mark 2:25-27: "And He said to them, Have you never read what David did, when he had need and was hungry, he, and those with him? How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest and ate the showbread, which it is not lawful to eat, except for the priests, and also gave to those with him?"

Did David sin here? Jesus says right here in this verse that the showbread was "not lawful to eat". So that settles it. David sinned, right?

NO! In the very next verse Jesus explains, "The sabbath is made for man, and not man for the sabbath."
It was perfectly moral for David to break this law in order to prevent both he and his men from going hungry. David wasn't a legalist. Neither was Jesus. Neither am I.

That's the principle on which I'm basing my argument for lying. The law is made for man, and not man for the law. Therefore, if it was perfectly moral for David to break the law because he was hungry, then why is it not moral for me to "lie" in order to save lives, both physical and eternal?

Legalism dilly-dallies with the periphera of life while men live and die in terms of crises. Scratch a legalist, and underneath you will find a sanctimonious ostrich with his head in the sand. Legalism hardens the heart and softens the brain.

[ October 14, 2001: Message edited by: Jefferson ]

[ October 14, 2001: Message edited by: Jefferson ]

[ October 14, 2001: Message edited by: Jefferson ]

 

Jefferson,

Careful . . . self-righteousness is a sin as well!

First, God obligates us to obey public law:

Romans 13:1-2 (NASB95)
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.

That applies in all cases EXCEPT where a man-made law violates God’s laws. Obviously God’s laws are higher laws.

Acts 5:29 (NASB95)
But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.

Since you gave several examples of lying, erroneously saying that lying is not a sin, I will look at one:

4.) Did Rahab sin when she lied in Joshua 2:5? No verse in this chapter says she sinned.

Lying is sin to God (Exodus 20:16 NASB95 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.), for He cannot lie (Titus 1:2 NASB95 in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,). God commended her faith (Heb. 11:31; James 2:25) as expressed in vv. 9–16, not her lie. He never condones any sin, yet none are without some sin (Romans 3:23 NASB95 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,), thus the need for forgiveness. But He also honors true faith, small as it is, and imparts saving grace (Ex. 34:7).

So to answer the question, “Is it ever right to do wrong?” NO! Does God understand that sometimes we may do wrong during an act of faith, for which there is forgiveness because of His saving grace? YES!

 

Jefferson

Did Elisha sin when he lied in 2nd Kings 6:19? No he did not lie. He asked God to blind them and then lead them to the army of the Israelites. The Aramite were looking for
Elisha and found him when their eyes were opened.

Did David's wife sin when she lied in First Samuel 19:13-14 and 19:17? Yes she did. She
was wrong in lying. She was wrong in lying and should have been honest. You must
understand how the Bible is written in the narrative. The author does not pause and
exclaim (now this is a sin you all, just so you know). We know that from reading the
Bible as a whole. While the historical events recorded in Scripture may be contrary to God that does not mean they are O.K. with God. They are a recording of events good or
bad. swaimj already stated this fact for you already.

Did Joshua and his army sin when they lied in Joshua 8:15? No he didn’t.

Did Rahab sin when she lied in Joshua 2:5? swaimj answered this for you already.
But let me also explain. She lied. It was a sin to lie. She is recorded in Hebrew’s hall of fame there because of her faith in the God of Jacob. Not because she lied. The question is, would these spies have been protected had she not lied? Is God on His throne? Yes He is and if he wanted them protected He is able to do so. Understand that God allowed the lie and used the lie to protect these men but didn’t need the lie.

Did the Egyptian midwives sin when they lied in Exodus 1:19? Yes. These women ignored the command of men and obeyed the command of God by not committing murder. But then lacked trust in that same God to protect the babies. The question is the same, is God able to protect without the use of a lie, the answer is yes. But here he used the lie. He did not reward these women because of a lie, but because they did not commit murder.

Will God be sinning in 2nd Thess. 2:11? Absolutely not! I think you should have asked, “ Will God be lying in 2 Thess.?” The answer to that is also a NO. God can’t lie. He does allow the those to believe in a lie, but He is not relishing the lie.

Mark 2:25-27 must be read in context. Jesus was not wrong in feeding the disciples. But
the Pharisees claimed that He was breaking the Sabbath. You keep calling us legalist, I
can assure you that I am not, nor is Lorelei. A legalist were the Pharisees who were adding to the law, or making it say things it was not meant to say. That is what they were guilty of. Jesus simply used David to show that they didn’t seem to have a problem with what David did, why try to stain out a gnat with this action. And you are changing the meaning of the passage. It says, the Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath, this is much different in saying the law is made for man not man for the law. God clearly laid out for us the moral code. Lying is not only against that, it is against His nature, and against the testimony of the Spirit of God that is within us. It is also an abomination to
Him.


Lorelei challenges the faith that we are to have in God when we lie and rightly does so. All the events in Scripture that record deceitful acts or where people have lied are just historical events. You claim that it does not pause to tell us it is a sin, but it also does not pause to say "(hey everyone, this lie here, its O.K. with God)".

The Father of Lies is Satan. He is the one who likes it when we lie, not God. Satan attempts to thwart God’s will by placing doubt in our minds which results in our thinking that we must lie in certain situations. God does not want us to lie ever.

Please read all these passages. Do not skim through them, read them.

Ps 5:6 You destroy those who tell lies; bloodthirsty and deceitful men the LORD abhors.
NIV

Ps 34:13 keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking lies.
NIV

Col 3:9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices
NIV

Ps 31:18 Let their lying lips be silenced, for with pride and contempt they speak
arrogantly against the righteous.
NIV

Prov 12:19 Truthful lips endure forever, but a lying tongue lasts only a moment.
NIV

Prov 12:22 The LORD detests lying lips, but he delights in men who are truthful.
NIV

These list of scripture certainly is not exhaustive. There are many more that teach lying is wrong. Let me ask, can anyone imagine God who clearly recorded for us His Holy instructions concerning lying, come to us when we get to heaven, put His arm around us and ask, "My child, you lead people to me while on earth, well done my faithful servent. But why did you not lead more? Why didn’t you try lying to those people down there? Why didn’t you deceive them more? Why didn’t you trick them into the Kingdom of God? If you would have lied then I could have drawn more!"

Abraham Lincoln said, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"No one has a good enough memory to lie"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>.

Chet

 

Jefferson,
I think using the Sabbath Day to defend lying is a weak position on your part. Here's why I say that:

Not everything that God commanded in the law is an absolute for all people in all times. Some laws were regulations for the Jews as a nation. With the coming of Jesus and the fulfillment of the law, many of these regulations ceased to be in effect.

The 10 commandments are the part of the law which are absolute, applying to all people in all times. "Ah hah," you say, "isn't keeping the Sabbath one of the 10 commandments? It is an absolute just like lying; David broke it and Jesus did too, therefore it is OK to disobey God's law and lie."

Not so fast!

The Sabbath is an exception to the rule. Nine of the ten commandments are absolute, and I say this for two reasons. One, they are direct reflections of God's nature, and two, they are repeated in the NT, so they apply to us today. The Sabbath fits neither of these categories. First, while the Sabbath follows a pattern that God set when he rested on the seventh day after creating, it is not intrinsic to His nature. God is outside of time, therefore a law about time cannot be intrinsic to him. Second, the law of the Sabbath is not repeated in the NT and is not a requirement for us today. In contrast to this, lying is forbidden in the 10 commandments and in the NT. It is an absolute, the breaking of which is never justified for the individual. Holding to absolutes where God gives absolutes does not make one a legalist.

 

&lt; Did Joshua and his army sin when they lied in Joshua 8:15? No he didn’t. &gt;

This was not technically lying (going by what we are told, not by what we are not told), but it was hypocrisy, which is also blanketly condemned-- compare I Peter 2:1, for example.

&lt; The question is the same, is God able to protect without the use of a lie, the answer is yes. &gt;

That's very true, but true in all circumstances. God is "able to protect" without an army, without the mass slaughters he ordered, without a jackass's jawbone, without lowering Paul down the city walls in a basket, et al. Why should anyone have to hide anything? why use any type of weapons... if one trusts God?

II Thessalonians 2:11 (and John 12;40) seems to be predestination dilemma. Why would God create circumstances which keep someone from becoming a beliver? That is more than I can answer.

&lt; Holding to absolutes where God gives absolutes does not make one a legalist. &gt;

In that case the Pharisees were not "legalists." The Israelites were clearly forbidden from gathering manna, as well as boiling anything, on the sabbath (Exodus 16). To pick grain and get to the edible part requires more work that simply gathering. Fortuantely it is true Christians have no obligation to the sabbath.

 

I think there is a BIG difference between deceiving someone who is planning to commit an overt act of injustice on someone and lying to covering up a sin or to sin for ones gain. I think God commandment was concerning the latter, not the former.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Wells:
(Exodus 20:16 NASB95 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which neighbor did Rahab "bear false witness against"?

Since the king of Jericho was not being accused of anything, it was therefore not possible for Rahab to bear false witness against him. And she acted on behalf of the spies, not against them.

So how does this verse apply? There is a difference between lying and bearing false witness.

 

Larry:

You want some advice? Here it is: Put your web site back up.

 

I once told a man a lie, because I wanted him to see things the way I truly knew that they were. I wanted him to see that he was wrong. It was a small lie, and it would end up in a lot of good. I knew this, and I was firm in my conviction on it.

But the man found out it was a lie. The message I had wanted him to hear was lost in his anger. "This is how a Christian acts?" he blared at me. "With lies? That's what the bible teaches? That's what Christ is all about? I can act like Satan and all the sinners, but it's okay because I'm 'saved'?"

I tried the standard stuff; asked for forgiveness, told him not to lose sight of the forest for the tree, etc., but the damage was done. "If being a Christian means lying to people, and deceiving them," he said, "then I don't want any part of Christianity." We haven't talked since, and he's spread around what kind of "liar" I am.

How many people have thanked you for lying to them, and deceiving them into reading your web site? How many have thanked you for your deception that led them to the Lord? How many have told you that it was such a good tactic, and that they got saved by it, that they want to save others by using the same tactic, too?

-----

What should you do, Larry?

PROCLAIM THE TRUTH, IN TRUTH!

Write to your congresspeople, and ask them to do something about this! I have, and I continue to do so! Complain to your internet service provider. If your ISP supports pornography, like AT&T and America On-line, find another ISP, and tell everyone you know to find another ISP, too.

Get hold of Internic, and tell them they made the biggest mistake in history by not allowing the ".xxx" domain name for pornographic sites.

There's a LOT you can do, Larry--but the main question you have to ask is, no matter what you do: YOU are the only Bible some people ever see, the only example of Christ some people ever see; what kind of Bible/example are you?

 

Hey, don't sweat it with me, Larry--or anyone else here, for that matter.

The final answers and justifications are between you and Him.

But something else to think about: Creating a "misleading" web page, and inviting people to visit it on the pretense of something else, is similar to what you said about the www.golf.com thing. It's similar to knocking on someone's door and introducing yourself as a book salesman, and then, when you get in the door, start witnessing to the people about Christ and how they need to get saved. You've misrepresented your initial position.

If someone has thanked you, then thank God! But the next question is: Where do you draw the line? And how do you teach that line, so that others don't cross it?

Me, I'll continue fighting for pornography to get it's own little corner (and then fight to get that corner erased), and for companies like AOL to quit selling our e-mail addresses to these purveyors of filth.

And Larry--at least you want to do something. That really is a boon in your favor. I may not agree with your method, but I'm not the one that you have to answer to. God Bless!

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chet:
Did Elisha sin when he lied in 2nd Kings 6:19? No he did not lie.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes he did lie. When Elisha said, "I will bring you to the man whom you seek" he implied (lied) that he himself was not that man. The Syrians eventually learned this man was Elisha in verses 21 and 22 but Elisha lied to them up until that time.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Did David's wife sin when she lied in First Samuel 19:13-14 and 19:17? Yes she did. She was wrong in lying.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which verse anywhere in the Bible referrs specifically to these words of David's wife and calls it a sin?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Did Joshua and his army sin when they lied in Joshua 8:15? No he didn’t.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please explain how this is not a lie.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Did Rahab sin when she lied in Joshua 2:5? swaimj answered this for you already.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That wasn't an explanation. That was a tap-dance.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>But let me also explain. She lied. It was a sin to lie.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which verse anywhere in the Bible referrs specifically to these words of Rahab and calls it a sin?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Did the Egyptian midwives sin when they lied in Exodus 1:19? Yes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which verse anywhere in the Bible referrs specifically to these words of the midwives and calls it a sin?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It says, the Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath, this is much different in saying the law is made for man not man for the law.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's the same principle. Was man made for the law? Yes or no?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Lorelei challenges the faith that we are to have in God when we lie and rightly does so.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not lying to the Nazis would have been tempting God. "Go ahead God, I'll tell the Nazis the truth that I'm hiding Jews and You can just make them invisible or something." That's tempting God.

Not only would I lie to the Nazis, I would also lie to all self-appointed Christian "Blabber-mouths for Jesus."

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You claim that it does not pause to tell us it is a sin, but it also does not pause to say "(hey everyone, this lie here, its O.K. with God)".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The scriptures scream it with its deafening silence by never pointing out anywhere in any verse in the entire Bible where these specific lies (that saved lives) were nevertheless, sins.

Here's a little Bible trivia question that everyone can ask their sunday school class this week:

Question: What is the percentage of lies in the Bible that were told in order to save lives that the Bible also pointed out were nevertheless a sin?

Answer: zero percent

Coincidence?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The Father of Lies is Satan. He is the one who likes it when we lie, not God.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I'm sure Satan was really thrilled when those Egyptian midwives saved God's chosen people.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Ps 5:6 You destroy those who tell lies; bloodthirsty and deceitful men the LORD abhors. NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your deplorable use of the HIV (not a misprint) is a topic for another thread. Be that as it may, this verse referrs to deceit for the purpose of shedding innocent blood, not saving it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Ps 34:13 keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking lies.
NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The context shows the verse is speaking of lying to accomplish evil.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Col 3:9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices
NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In all the verses I quoted, they did not lie "to each other" (ie. believers). They lied to unbelievers.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Ps 31:18 Let their lying lips be silenced, for with pride and contempt they speak arrogantly against the righteous.
NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You think the Nazis were "righteous"?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Prov 12:19 Truthful lips endure forever, but a lying tongue lasts only a moment. NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rahab is in the eternal hall of faith.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Prov 12:22 The LORD detests lying lips, but he delights in men who are truthful. NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The context of the entire Bible shows this referrs to lying to accomplish evil.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Let me ask, can anyone imagine God who clearly recorded for us His Holy instructions concerning lying, come to us when we get to heaven, put His arm around us and ask, "My child, you lead people to me while on earth, well done my faithful servent. But why did you not lead more? Why didn’t you try lying to those people down there? Why didn’t you deceive them more? Why didn’t you trick them into the Kingdom of God? If you would have lied then I could have drawn more!"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He just might say this.

[ October 17, 2001: Message edited by: Jefferson ]

[ October 17, 2001: Message edited by: Jefferson ]

[ October 17, 2001: Message edited by: Jefferson ]

[ October 17, 2001: Message edited by: Jefferson ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jefferson:
Which verse anywhere in the Bible referrs specifically to these words of David's wife and calls it a sin?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok Jefferson, let's use your logic here. Show me specifically where in each of the following verses it says that some lies are acceptable?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Leviticus 19:11
"`Do not steal. "`Do not lie. "`Do not deceive one another." NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where does it say, unless you are going to do good by lying?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Jeremiah 9:3
"They make ready their tongue like a bow, to shoot lies; it is not by truth that they triumph in the land. They go from one sin to another; they do not acknowledge me," declares the LORD.
4
"Beware of your friends; do not trust your brothers. For every brother is a deceiver, and every friend a slanderer.
5
Friend deceives friend, and no one speaks the truth. They have taught their tongues to lie; they weary themselves with sinning.
6
You live in the midst of deception; in their deceit they refuse to acknowledge me," declares the LORD NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where does it say, Only those who lie to do good are not weary with sinning?


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Isaiah 59:1 Surely the arm of the LORD is not too short to save, nor his ear too dull to hear.
2
But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.
3
For your hands are stained with blood, your fingers with guilt. Your lips have spoken lies, and your tongue mutters wicked things.
4
No one calls for justice; no one pleads his case with integrity. They rely on empty arguments and speak lies; they conceive trouble and give birth to evil.
...
13
rebellion and treachery against the LORD, turning our backs on our God, fomenting oppression and revolt, uttering lies our hearts have conceived.
14
So justice is driven back, and righteousness stands at a distance; truth has stumbled in the streets, honesty cannot enter.
15
Truth is nowhere to be found, and whoever shuns evil becomes a prey. The LORD looked and was displeased that there was no justice. NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I see no clarification like "But I am not talking about the lies that you did for good reasons?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Ezekiel 13:19
You have profaned me among my people for a few handfuls of barley and s****s of bread. By lying to my people, who listen to lies, you have killed those who should not have died and have spared those who should not live. NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some lives were spared here, but not those who should have lived. According to you, don't WE have the right to make that judgement for God?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Hosea 11:12
Ephraim has surrounded me with lies, the house of Israel with deceit. And Judah is unruly against God, even against the faithful Holy One. NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where does it say, but not the lies that were used for good, just the "bad" lies?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Nahum 3:1
Woe to the city of blood, full of lies, full of plunder, never without victims! NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It doesn't say "full of bad lies.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Zephaniah 3:12
But I will leave within you the meek and humble, who trust in the name of the LORD.
13
The remnant of Israel will do no wrong; they will speak no lies, nor will deceit be found in their mouths. They will eat and lie down and no one will make them afraid." NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It says they will speak NO lies, not just righteous ones

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Psalm 5:5
The arrogant cannot stand in your presence; you hate all who do wrong.
6
You destroy those who tell lies; bloodthirsty and deceitful men the LORD abhors. NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He will destroy those that tell "Bad" lies or just "lies"..what does it REALLY say?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Psalm 10:7
His mouth is full of curses and lies and threats; trouble and evil are under his tongue NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

bad lies, or just lies?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Psalm 12:2 Everyone lies to his neighbor; their flattering lips speak with deception.
3
May the LORD cut off all flattering lips and every boastful tongue NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cut off the lips of those who lie for good too? But where does it say that specifically?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Psalm 34:13
keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking lies. NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Keep it from speaking lies, not just lies except those that are told to do God's will.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Psalm 58:3
Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies. NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

speak "evil" lies, or just "lies"?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Psalm 59:12
For the sins of their mouths, for the words of their lips, let them be caught in their pride. For the curses and lies they utter, NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

sins of their mouths from curses and lies...again no specifics on what KIND of lie

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Psalm 62:4 They fully intend to topple him from his lofty place; they take delight in lies. With their mouths they bless, but in their hearts they curse NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hm, who could ever delight in a lie? Couldn't Rahab or the midwives or anyone else you mentioned? Oh, but these folks are WRONG for delighting in lies, how come? I guess they were the "bad" lies. But where does it tell us that anyone delights in a good lie?


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Psalm 120:2
Save me, O LORD, from lying lips and from deceitful tongues. NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

unless it's the lie and deceipt that you WANT me to. Ooops that would be adding to the Word of God, it certainly does NOT say that!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Proverbs 6:16
There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him:
17
haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood,
18
a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil,
19
a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers. NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He hates a lying tongue and a false witness who pours out lies, not anything about "unless they were lying to do good!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Proverbs 12:17
A truthful witness gives honest testimony, but a false witness tells lies. NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Proverbs 14:5
A truthful witness does not deceive, but a false witness pours out lies. NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Proberbs 19:5
A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who pours out lies will not go free. NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Proverbs 19:9
A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who pours out lies will perish NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I am a witness to where the Jews are hidden, will I be an honest witness or a false one?

Truth=honest
False=lies

Hmmm a truthful witness does not deceive, so if I deceive then I am a false witness, but a false witness will be punished (by God not man) and perish. Now how can I lie and still not be punished by God according to this? No ifs, ors, excepts here either.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler listens to lies, all his officials become wicked NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unless the lies were used to protect innocents? Don't see it

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Proverbs 30:8 Keep falsehood and lies far from me NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But the lies to do good bring gladly into my presence? AGain, does NOT say that!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Proverbs 12:19
Truthful lips endure forever, but a lying tongue lasts only a moment. NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

a lying tongue to do God's work..will...not endure forever!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Proverbs 12:22
The LORD detests lying lips, but he delights in men who are truthful. NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Delights in those who are truthful or those who lie to do God's work?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Proverbs 17:7 Arrogant lips are unsuited to a fool-- how much worse lying lips to a ruler! NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How much worse? Does that depend on what "kind" of lie?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Colossians 3:9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only lie to the sinners??? But where does it actually Say that?


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
1 John 2:21
I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But Jesus is the Truth, so how can any lie come from Him? Oh, it comes from us, but doesn't he approve it? But no lie can come from truth. I am confused!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Titus 1:2 a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

God said in all these verses that lying is a sin and that he hates lying. God can not lie, so either these verses are true in ALL circumstances, or God lied.

Don't show me where someone did lie. I can show you lots of sins people commited, but that doesn't make it right. Show me where God tells us we can lie sometimes?

~Lorelei

[ October 17, 2001: Message edited by: Lorelei ]

 

Larry,

What search criteria are you using for your page? Other then the title is anything that could be considered "deceptive"?

Just keep the page honest. Looking to Lust, what the Bible says. The words looking to lust are still there, but you are being honest about what content will be there. Those searching will still pull up your page but can opt whether or not to go there. If the Spirit is drawing them, they will still come!

Not sure about the graphic material one. But remember, we are also not to throw the pearls before the swine.

I think what you are trying to do is wonderful, but I am also trying to see what the Lord would want us to do. You are right, this is destructive and needs to be stopped, but you have to change the hearts and mind of all of society to stop this. An in your face attitude at the wrong moment could hurt more then it could help, at least in my opinion.

Keep at it Larry, keep in prayer and don't give up! It seems God has given you a mission, just don't forget to let Him lead you in how to go about doing it. He would never ask you to do something he has commanded you not to.

I have been thinking on this, and will let you know if I get any brainstorms. I will keep you and your ministry in my prayers!

~Lorelei

 

Lorelei

Absolutely awesome post!! Thanks for putting up all those Scripture references. Great job!

Jefferson

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Yes he did lie. When Elisha said, "I will bring you to the man whom you seek" he
implied (lied) that he himself was not that man. The Syrians eventually learned this man
was Elisha in verses 21 and 22 but Elisha lied to them up until that time<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Elisha did NOT lie. He led them to a different spot, but still led them to whom they were looking for. But this is not the point, even if he did lie, then this does not prove lying is all right with God.

You asked, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>“Which verse anywhere in the Bible referrs specifically to these words
of David's wife and calls it a sin?”<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I thought I answered this for you. You obviously do not understand how the historical aspects of the Scriptures are written. Just as Lorelei said, she can show you places that record sins. They don’t pause to tell us it is a sin. You asked how Joshua did not lie. He did not lie. He simply let his army be driven back.
But you are missing the point, if he did lie this does not prove it is all right.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>That wasn't an explanation. That was a tap-dance.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You claim that I tap danced around Rahab. Two problems with this, one I can’t dance let
alone tap dance. Two Rahab is no longer here for me to tap dance around. There is no
reason for me to repeat what swaimj has already covered. But I did reiterate it. If you want a verse that states what Rahab, or the midwives said was a sin, then read Lorelei post.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Not lying to the Nazis would have been tempting God<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You claim that by not lying we are tempting God, this is dumb. We are lacking faith by
lying.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I would also lie to all self-appointed Christian "Blabber-mouths for Jesus."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Are you saying I am a blabbermouth for Jesus? Guess I plead guilty. Am I self
appointed? No, God appointed.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Yeah, I'm sure Satan was really thrilled when those Egyptian midwives saved
God's chosen people.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Your right in your sarcasm. Satan was not thrilled when those midwives saved God’s
Children. He was also mad that they obeyed God’s Word instead of mans laws. But
however, was Satan upset that those midwives thought they had to lie to achieve good?
No.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Your deplorable use of the HIV (not a misprint) is a topic for another
thread.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Jefferson, you speak in ignorance. Go to the KJVO threads in that
section of the board and read what Pastor Larry, Chris Temple, John Wells, and Dr. Bob
Griffen have written. Also read the recommended books.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Rahab is in the eternal hall of faith<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not for lying.

Speaking of my comment about if God would have told us we should have lied more in
heaven, you said:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>He just might say this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You know Jefferson, there will be a god who will say this, but it won’t be the God I serve.

Let me say this to everyone, Jefferson is a self proclaimed liar. He has already admitted to the fact that HE can decide if the moment called for lying. He has plainly said deceit is all right as long as it accomplishes an eternal purpose. He has claimed that he would not think twice to lying, even to Jesus blabber mouths. And Jefferson, in other post has told us that he holds to the beliefs of Bob Enyart, who has terrible theology, and has lowered God to that of the god spoken of in the “Open Theism” threads. I am writing this to warn
everyone to be very careful of his writings, as he is not afraid to lie. He could be lying about being a Baptist ( I think he is not Baptist). But we will never know. He can’t be trusted.

Chet

 

Larry,

My brother, I do disagree with the way you are setting people up to read the Gospel. But I do understand your heart. I just wish there were more people as compassionate as you are about witnessing, and especially those who are in pornography.
I have grown to really enjoy your post, and I am not "beating you over the head", but I do disagree with lying or deceit in all cases, especially when we are a witness for Christ.

Absolutely nothing will ever work to change people except one thing and that is a
new heart. A new heart is the result of Jesus, which is proclaimed in the wonderful
Gospel without masking it. That will change behavior.

God Bless you brother,

Rev 3:14
"...These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;"

KJV (just for you brother )

 

Larry,

I think you should set your website up to return search engine "hits" on all the "porn words" and then delicately and gradually introduce the gospel. You wouldn't want your main page plastered with religious artwork and damnation preaching. But luring them in with the stuff they are looking for is, in my opinion wrong. Just don't beat them over the head with the gospel right away. I don't have detailed suggestions on how to do that, but think about it and run some ideas by us here!