"Is it ever right to do wrong?"

Look, folks, this could go round and round. But here's the ultimate test of whether it's ever right to do wrong:

The beast has risen. The mark is being given out. If you don't take it, or at least have your kids take it, you won't be able to feed or get medical attention for them, and your children will probably die.

Can you rationalize or justify accepting the mark? As in, telling yourself, I'm not really accepting the mark, I just have to ensure my kids are taken care of?

Or did God make a distinction in Revelation? EVERYONE who takes the mark will end up in the lake of fire.

"But I didn't really take the mark!" we'll hear people whining. "I was just fooling! I was deceiving the enemy, because I was just trying to be a good steward of that which God has given me to take care of! I did it for my kids!"

Is it ever right to do wrong?

No.

Would I "rat out" anyone? Or be a "blabbermouth for Jesus"? Nope.

Jefferson, your logic error here is that you are assuming something must be said; in actuality, there are 3 choices: Lie, tell the truth, or say nothing.

Silence doesn't "rat out" anything. Especially when that silence is being punctuated with prayer....

[ October 21, 2001: Message edited by: Don ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Don:
Jefferson, your logic error here is that you are assuming something must be said; in actuality, there are 3 choices: Lie, tell the truth, or say nothing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, Don. It's ironic that Jefferson thinks that absolutists are legalists. He thinks we are too strict when in truth, we are not as strict as he is in regard to scenarios about lying. Jefferson sees only two options, when in truth, there are more than two.

 

God’s decretive will - Theologians describe that will by which God decrees things to come to pass according to his supreme sovereignty as the “decretive will of God.” God’s decretive will can be either secret or hidden will (not yet revealed), or revealed will.

God’s preceptive will - The preceptive will of God is found in his law. The precepts, statutes, and commandments that he delivers to his people make up the preceptive will. They express and reveal to us what is right and proper for us to do.

When Rehab lied to protect the Jews, she violated God’s preceptive will, but obeyed His decretive will. When Joseph’s brothers sold him into slavery, they violated God’s preceptive will, but obeyed His decretive will. If one lied to protect a Jew from the Nazis, they violated God’s preceptive will, but obeyed His decretive will for that person’s life.

It was God’s decretive will that invading armies punish Israel from time to time, but it was God’s preceptive will that loyal Israelite soldiers defend their nation, opposing God’s decretive will.

If you apply these to the various “what ifs” that have been discussed in this thread, I think you will find your answers.

 

I am falling behind here! Thankfully Don, Chet and others out there are faithfully defending the Truth!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jefferson:


You are admitting that you, a fellow believer, would rat me out to Nazi officers for trying to save Jewish lives and I'm the one with the spiritual problem?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, (as Don pointed out and it's something I mentioned many pages ago), I would not rat you out. I may end up dying myself, but I would not rat you out.

I think you need to learn the difference between Trust and Temptation, there is a difference that you refuse to see. You say I am tempting God, when I reality I am trusting Him. If I were to go to the Nazi's and say "Jefferson is hiding the Nazi's" and then expect God to miraculously save you, that would be tempting Him. To put it in God's hands and let the Spirit lead me when confronted by the Nazi's, that is trusting in God.

But again, I ask you How many Nazi's have you hidden? & How many lies have you told?

I also wonder why you expect Rahab not to lie when she wasn't an Isrealite anyway. She wasn't raised to know the "law". It was her faith that saved her, but part of what was so wonderful was that she was an enemy of the Isrealites that realized that their God was indeed the Lord. Thankfully God accepts us as we are, even if we lie trying to do the right thing! The moment you were saved, did you then know and keep the whole law? I didn't! Rahab didn't either, but her faith in what she still did not comprehend was that which was rewarded.

~Lorelei

[ October 21, 2001: Message edited by: Lorelei ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lorelei:
You know I was discussing this topic wiht my husband today at lunch and he was telling me about a Roman Emporer who persecuted Christians. His technique for finding out who was Christian or not was simple. He said "ask them"! If they tell you they are Christian, then kill them! If they are say that they are not Christians then spare thier lives. He figured if they were going to lie about it then they weren't living up to their faith and were no threat anyway. I just found that rather interesting and relevant...makes ya think.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, it makes me think what in the world you and your husband are doing getting your definintions of Christian holiness from an anti-Christian, pagan tyrant. Are you two nuts?

[ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: Jefferson ]

 

Jefferson, that was just plain shtoopid.

Are you at the point where you can't deny what's been presented to you? Is that why you're resorting to shtoopid personal insults?

Oh, I forgot; you just used the typical tactic of the ShadowGover when backed into a corner: Forget about discussing/debating the subject, and launch into ad hominems and straw men arguments (i.e., misdirection...which, coincidentally, is sort of like deceit, since it takes you away from the original subject....)

The truth of the matter is, the Roman ruler was right: If we're too ashamed to publicly announce we're Christians, and lose our lives for it, then we are ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, and we have gained our lives only to lose them.

Are you ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, Jefferson? And by the way, there's another question you haven't answered: Do you not have faith in God to miraculously deliver us?

[ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: Don ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Don:
Do you not have faith in God to miraculously deliver us?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have faith in God to miraculously deliver us but I will not sin against Matthew 4:7 by tempting God.

Don, have you sold all of you possessions and given them to the poor (Matthew 19:21)? No? Why not? Don't you trust God to miraculously deliver you from financial ruin?

 

Jeff, Jeff, Jeff. I thought I was the one on medication?....

Your use of Matthew 4:7 was one of the grossest contextual errors I've ever seen (well, except for your use of Matthew 19:21). But, then again, Enyart does the same thing, so why should I expect any more from you?

Is it tempting God to proudly stand up and say, "I'm a Christian" at the risk of losing your own life? Or is it faith in God that, even if I do lose my life, I have gained it that much more? (Matthew 10, Mark 8, Luke 9, John 12)

Matthew 19:21 - the rich young ruler would rather keep his riches than follow Christ. Frankly, you don't know how much I HAVE given up, do you? But the question is, are YOU willing to give it all up?

Need clarification on Matthew 19:21? See Luke 9:57-62 The principle involved, Jeff, is NOT that you and I should sell everything we have, but that we should follow without hesitation and without reservation. Learn to use your scripture in context, ol' boy.

Answer the second question, Jeff: Are you ashamed of the Gospel of Christ?

Jeff, ol' son, I've given a LOT of scripture dealing with truth over the last couple of pages...and yet, all I still see from you is a personal need to justify lying...give it some thought....

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jefferson:


Yeah, it makes me think what in the world you and your husband are doing getting your definintions of Christian holiness from an anti-Christian, pagan tyrant. Are you two nuts?

[ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: Jefferson ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, I give! Instead of debating the topic, you go to statements that are truly twisting my words and intentions thereof. Of course, that is what you are doing with the Word of God as well. Be careful Jefferson, for twisting my words does nothing but make you look silly, if you twist the Word of God you could be in much great danger.

I still await my answer. How many Jews have you hidden and how many lies have you told?

Anway, don't rush in answering. My nutty husband and I are going to have a baby within the next 7 days, I have much better things to be concerning myself with then what you think of this "Blabbermouth for Jesus nut".

~Lorelei

 

Yet even MORE verses supporting lying and deceiving the wicked:

1.) I Kings 22:21-23 - "And there came forth a spirit and stood before the LORD and said, I will deceive him. And he said, I will go forth and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And He said, You shall persuade him and succeed also. Go forth and do so. And now, behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets, and the LORD has spoken evil concerning you."

2.) Genesis 12:11-13 - "And it happened, when he had come near to enter into Egypt, he said to Sarai his wife, Behold now, I know that you are a beautiful woman to look upon. And it will be when the Egyptians see you, they shall say, This is his wife. And they will kill me, but they will save you alive. I pray you, say that you are my sister, so that it may be well with me for your sake. And my soul shall live because of you."

3.) Genesis 26:6,7 - "And Isaac lived in Gerar. And the men of the place asked about his wife. And he said, She is my sister. For he feared to say, My wife; lest the men of the place should kill me for Rebekah, because she was beautiful of form."

4.) Genesis 27:19 - "And Jacob said to his father, I am Esau your first-born."

5.) Judges 1:24-26 - "And the spies saw a man come forth out of the city, and they said to him, Please show us the gate into the city, and we will show you mercy. And when he showed them the gate into the city, they struck the city with the edge of the sword."

This man deceived his nation by pretending to be a patriot when, in reality, he was a traitor.

This also brings another aspect into the story of Rahab. She not only lied, she also deceived her nation by pretending to be a patriot when, in reality, she was a traitor.

6.) Judges 3:19,21 - "But he himself turned again from the graven images that were by Gilgal, and said, I have a secret message for you, O, king. And he said, Keep silence. And all that stood by him went out from him.
. . . And Ehud put forth his left hand and took the dagger from his right thigh, and thrust it into his belly."

7.) Judges 4:18,21 - "And Jael went out to meet Sisera, and said to him, Turn in my lord, turn in to me. Do not fear. When he had turned in to her into the tent, she covered him with a rug. . . . Then Jael, Heber's wife, took a peg of the tent and put a hammer in her hand, and went softly to him, and struck the peg into his temples, and beat it into the ground. For he was fast asleep and weary. So he died."

8.) Ezekiel 14:9 - "And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel."

There it is folks. More verses with opportunities for scripture to point out in just ONE case that these people sinned even though God blessed them. And once again, how many of these lies and/or deceptions does scripture label "sin"?

ZERO!

Coincidence?

Are you suprised? I'm not.

Let the record continue to stand. 100 percent of the time that someone lied or deceived in scripture in order to save the lives of the innocent or the just, that person is never told by scripture that his lie or deception was a sin.

Never. Not once. Zero. Zip. Nada. Doughnut hole.

Learn it. Love it. Live it.

 

Umm...what?!?

Let the record show: You provided not one single New Testament verse.

And that last example you gave? Number 8? Where God says He will destroy that prophet that was deceived? How am I supposed to interpret that other than God will destroy the prophet that was deceived? Besides the fact that in this passage, Ezekiel was warning the elders of Israel not to take up idols....

Now, why, oh why, did Don bring up the "no New Testament verses?"

Because, #1, you didn't provide any counter-offers to the verses I provided from the Old Testament basically commanding us to be truthful in all things. (The post is there; feel free to go back an look for yourself, or let me know and I'll re-copy it). #2, you didn't provide any examples of New Testament characters, with the coming of the Lord and the changing of the plan, doing the things you've mentioned.

Sorry, Jeff; you're just not convincing anyone, especially when you won't respond to scripture that seems to run contrary to what you post.

 

Let's just agree to disagree from now on. Rahab did not lie in the Biblical sense, only in the 20th-century-postmodernistic sense did she lie.

Our pastor preached a dismal sermon about how evil the heroes of our American Revolution were, and I cornered him after church. At one point the conversation turned to some fella in Denmark who was hiding Jews. He said when the Nazis came to this fella's door he had the whole Jewish family gather under the kitchen table. Then when asked, "Are you hiding Jews?"

He replied, "Why yes, there is a whole family of them under my kitchen table."

The Nazis, of course, thought this incredulous and left. But, what the man said was absolutely true!!

NO IT WASN'T!! The intent was to deceive by describing a situation seemingly so incredulous as to not be believed. The man's goal was to lead the Nazi's into thinking that he was being sarcastic. It is what is in the heart that counts.

Rahab and the Egyptian midwives did not worry about the technicalities of their "words". Neither should we. We should defend innocent life. And that means either misleading their oppressors or killing them. Either one is justified.

 

Can I answer the original question?

No.

That's doesn't mean God can't work around the wrong that He allows us to do (our hearts want to do ever so much more before we are saved!) -- Romans 8:28. But He has commanded us to do right. Therefore that's what we should do to honor Him. It doesn't matter what anyone else did or does. God is quite capable of working with our obedience as well as our disobedience...
:0

Helen

 

I'll repost it again since nobody seemed to notice. This answers this 8-page, six million post dilemma:

God’s decretive will - Theologians describe that will by which God decrees things to come to pass according to his supreme sovereignty as the “decretive will of God.” God’s decretive will can be either secret or hidden will (not yet revealed), or revealed will.

God’s preceptive will - The preceptive will of God is found in his law. The precepts, statutes, and commandments that he delivers to his people make up the preceptive will. They express and reveal to us what is right and proper for us to do.

When Rehab lied to protect the Jews, she violated God’s preceptive will, but obeyed His decretive will. When Joseph’s brothers sold him into slavery, they violated God’s preceptive will, but obeyed His decretive will. If one lied to protect a Jew from the Nazis, they violated God’s preceptive will, but obeyed His decretive will for that person’s life.

It was God’s decretive will that invading armies punish Israel from time to time, but it was God’s preceptive will that loyal Israelite soldiers defend their nation, opposing God’s decretive will.

If you apply these to the various “what ifs” that have been discussed in this thread, I think you will find your answers.

 

Yowee Kazowee!!

In short, God opposes Himself????

I would, nevertheless, like you to supply some reference to these two, sometimes opposed wills of God.

 

(preferably in a new thread!)

 

Jefferson, Jefferson, Jefferson. Do you even read the passages of scripture that you provide, or do you pull them from an Enyart manual?

Judges 4:18, 21--so you're telling us that Jael, a Kenite and not an Israelite, was obeying God by lying to Sisera? How about she was simply fulfilling the prophecy of Deborah? As a Kenite and not an Israelite, did Jael feel the necessity to obey the laws of the Israelite God? Want to show us how contextually this passage really means that God rewards lying?

Judges 3:19, 21--you've got to be kidding. Ehud didn't lie in this passage!

Judges 1:24-26--Are you trying to convince us that the man in this passage was a traitor from day 1? Or, in the context of the passage, was he merely afraid for his life--remember, they offered him mercy--and gave up the city? The man didn't lie or deceive; he simply made a poor choice in a bad situation. (By the way, this is a prime example of what I meant when I mentioned mis-using scripture...you've done an excellent job of inserting a meaning into scripture instead of drawing one from it.)

Genesis 26? How about the verses AFTER the ones you provided? 10 And Abimelech said, What is this thou hast done unto us? one of the people might lightly have lien with thy wife, and thou shouldest have brought guiltiness upon us. 11 And Abimelech charged all his people, saying, He that toucheth this man or his wife shall surely be put to death. 12 Then Isaac sowed in that land, and received in the same year an hundredfold: and the LORD blessed him. (notice that the blessing didn't happen until AFTER the truth came out)

Gen 12? Same problem: 14 And it came to pass, that, when Abram was come into Egypt, the Egyptians beheld the woman that she was very fair. 15 The princes also of Pharaoh saw her, and commended her before Pharaoh: and the woman was taken into Pharaoh’s house. 16 And he entreated Abram well for her sake: and he had sheep, and oxen, and he asses, and menservants, and maidservants, and she asses, and camels. 17 And the LORD plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram’s wife. 18 And Pharaoh called Abram, and said, What is this that thou hast done unto me? why didst thou not tell me that she was thy wife? 19 Why saidst thou, She is my sister? so I might have taken her to me to wife: now therefore behold thy wife, take her, and go thy way. 20 And Pharaoh commanded his men concerning him: and they sent him away, and his wife, and all that he had. (Note that Abram's reward for lying was that God visited a plague upon Pharoah, and Pharoah kicked him out!)

100%? Nah, don't think so...the only one you gave us that actually fit what you're trying to convince us of was Gen 27. But feel free to keep trying....

[ October 23, 2001: Message edited by: Don ]

 

Don:

It's not November 1st yet. I shouldn't have replied to you on the 22nd. When your Dr. takes you off your drugs from your back surgery, let me know.

 

Don't cop out on us, Jeff. Or should I say, another typical ShadowGov tactic: Run away....

You gave scripture to support your claim; I've pretty much shown where you mis-used it.

And don't forget: I'm not the only one you're responding to. Larry, Lorelei, Swaimj, Chet, and the rest are expecting you to actually back up your claim instead of mis-using scripture....

[ October 23, 2001: Message edited by: Don ]