Gospel Conversion

Dualhunter,
The question is, does "drawing" equal "regeneration"? You seem to be assuming that they are the same thing, but I have not seen evidence for this.

[ May 07, 2002, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: swaimj ]

 

I will be honest. I am not very knowledgeable concerning the issue of salvation in the Old Testament. I will not be wise above that which the Scriptures teach, but I will present an argument.

Since Christ had not yet atoned for the sins of His people, the faith of the Old Testament saints in offering a sacrifice was acceptable to God because it pointed to the True Sacrifice, Jesus. Sinners in the Old Testament were just as "dead in trespasses and sins" as those in the New Testament. The New Testament affirms that we "believe through grace" (Acts 18:27). The Old Testament spoke of Samuel receiving "another heart" (1 Samuel 10:9). This could possibly be referring to regeneration. Unless one is quickened and has been forgiven of all their trespasses and sins, they cannot be saved. It would be logical that those of the Old Testament were quickened into divine life.

The Bible speaks of things that we now know that the saints of old wished to know. The revelation of God is progressive and reaches its fullness in the New Testament. The Old Testament saints did not know everything about salvation in Jesus Christ, but even Job knew he would be redeemed (Job 19:25).

I could be right or wrong. What do you think?

 

What I was trying to convey was that a sinner who is dead in trespasses and sins cannot produce faith. It was "when" we were dead in trespasses and sins that we were quickened. Understanding this, quickening must have not been dependent on a preacher of the Gospel giving someone eternal life. Read Acts 10. Peter was a little too late to give Cornelius eternal life by preaching the Gospel!

Answer this: How does one "believe through grace" (Acts 18:27) is they don't already have grace?

 

I'm not assuming anything. I believe that regeneration is a result of God having drawn a person to him. Once God has drawn a person to Himself, His Holy Spirit regenerates the person. Drawing is the means by which God makes us conscious of our need for salvation and the source of our salvation which is Christ. Regeneration is the means by which the Holy Spirit makes us right in God's sight having drawn us to the point where we put our trust in Christ.

 

1. Were people in the Old Testament aware of an eternal life in heaven; and could they so live as to expect this reward? Reply: Some "died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off ... desire a better country, that is, a heavenly" (Heb. 11:13-16). We must remember the whole truth was not yet available in the Old Testament but was in the process of being delivered "line upon line" (Isa. 28:9-13). Even the prophets did not fully understand salvation in Christ (1 Pet. 1:9-12). Also, many Old Testament prophecies had an initial reference to physical Israel, with a later reference to spiritual blessings in Christ (Isa. 4:2-4). Compare "remnant" passages (Isa. 1:9; 10:20-23) with their use in the New Testament (Rom. 11:5,16-27). The faithful, under earlier dispensations, were justified by Christ, when He died for them and for all faithful (Rom. 3:19-25).

2. Did animal sacrifices produce remission of sins? Reply: Eventually, as said above, the "faithful" were saved by Christ. Animal sacrifice was but a type, a shadow, a figure of the real sacrifice, Jesus Christ (Heb. 9:20-24). "It is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins" (Heb. 10:4). Study carefully Heb. 7:18-19; 8:5-6; 9:6-14,19-26; 10:1-18. The scheme of redemption was gradually unfolded in types and shadows, and those subject to the types awaited the substance, Jesus Christ, to realize their blessings.

--Robert F. Turner

 

Swamij:
Thanks,I usually do not get that reaction from my posts.
Frank

 

Hello All:
The gospel of Christ is God's Power to save.The text of Romans 1:16 declares that the gospel is the only power of God to save all men. The is a definitive article meaning one of a kind, unique, original. Therefore, men are begotten by the gospel. ( ICor. 4:15).
The gospel is the word of truth that must be received by faith.(James 1:18,21,IIThes. 2:13,14).It is the pure gospel planted in the fertile soils of the heart of man that produces the saved.( I Peter 1:23-25, Lk. 8:11,15).
It is the gospel that must be obeyed to save a man. ( IPet.1:22,Hebrews 5: 8,9,Roamsn 6:17, Mk. 1:15).
It is the gospel of Christ that requires an obedient faith in Christ to be saved.( Romans 16:26).
Failure to obey the gospel through an active faith will result in one being lost for eternity.( II Thes. 1:6-9).
Frank

 

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Romans 1:16)

The gospel is only the power of God to every one that "believeth" (literally, "who is believing"). The word "believeth" is a present active participle meaning those who are now (present) believing (active).

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (1 Corinthians 1:18)

The gospel is foolishness to all except the born again children of God. Look at the context of Romans.

So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. (Romans 1:16)

Those at Rome were saints (Romans 1:7), but Paul still insisted on preaching the gospel to them. The gospel does not give life, but reveals it (2 Timothy 1:10).

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (Romans 1:16)

We are saved by grace through faith, that is, the faith OF Jesus Christ (Galatians 2:16). His righteousness, or faith, is imputed to us when we are born again. We are justified by His unwavering faith. Our faith is reactionary to His. We, then, believe through grace (Acts 18:27).

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, (Ephesians 1:13)

Notice "the gospel of your salvation;" The "good news" of your salvation. The preaching of the gospel is NOT our salvation, but the good news about it.

The gospel saves believers from the world and all its delusions here in time. There is no miraculous power in the words of a preacher that give a sinner life in Christ.

[ May 07, 2002, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: Christopher ]

 

I find the ongoing discussion important. I find it in a way encouraging to see that there are some here who do not believe the heresy of gospel regeneration. I was flatly judged lost by a gospel regenerationist under the thread on John 3:5 because of what I said, but now as I came back I see certain others here hold to the biblical truth of Holy Spirit regeneration. I will make a few comments upon some things having been touched upon.

Old Testament saints were likewise regenerated as those under the New Testament dispensation, and that by the Spirit of God alone. Can gospel regenerationists answer how Adam was regenerated when there was yet no written Bible or a written gospel, let alone any human preacher preaching that written gospel to him? God Himself sovereignly quickened Adam apart from means, and thus He has done all since with respect to His own elect people. The biblical truth is that the Spirit of Christ quickens elect and redeemed sinners under the imputation of Christ's righteousness. If righteousness of Christ Jesus has not been divinely imputed to a person that one will not be quickened by the Spirit. Where righteousness has been imputed and new life consequently imparted there will in due time follow Gospel conversion, or, Gospel salvation, not in word only but also in power and in Holy Spirit (1Thes. 1:4-6). It is futile to profess faith in Christ apart from a Gospel conversion in the Spirit's power.

Romans 10:17 speaks of hearing, a hearing not with physical ears but with spiritual ears having been given in the Spirit's quickening apart from means. The same verse does not speak of hearing coming by God's written word. The underlying word is rhêmatos, not logos. The hearing ear is by God's very own living voice, the voice of the Son of God which echoes in the spiritual realm and makes the ear hearing. A man may come to Gospel conversion apart from hearing the gospel preached with his physical ears, because he may read that gospel in some writing or in the Bible, so the hearing spoken of is a spiritual hearing. The hearing ear is brought about by the voice of the Son of God, and to such an ear the written word or Gospel is made a means of conversion in the Spirit's power and grace. The gospel is not an instrument of regeneration, but by it Christ brings life and incorruptibility, or immortality, to light, and that to His quickened sheep.

The saving justification which the Bible speaks about and which demands the consequent impartation of life eternal to God's elect sheep is solely by Christ's righteousness imputed. Although I cannot yet call myself a Baptist (not that there's any merit in being called Baptist)I understand that Baptists have contended for the scriptural doctrine of justification by Christ alone. So the Particular Baptists in Englad in the 1600's and 1700's, the Strict Baptists of England in the 1800's, and also some other Baptist groups, as well as some non-Baptist groups here and there. Martin Luther's Sola Fide doctrine is not the Bible's doctrine of justification by Christ's blood and obedience alone. Luther heretically believed that a subjective faith in man's heart is that for which's sake a sinner is justified by God.
Consider the following quote from Luther's commentary on Galatians (2:16 if I remember correctly):

"We say, faith apprehends Jesus Christ. Christian faith is not an inactive quality in the heart. If it is true faith it will surely take Christ for its object. Christ, apprehended by faith and dwelling in the heart, constitutes Christian righteousness, for which God gives eternal life.

Here let me say, that these three things, faith, Christ, and imputation of righteousness, are to be joined together. Faith takes hold of Christ. God accounts this faith for righteousness

A Christian is not somebody who has no sin, but somebody against whom God no longer chalks sin, because of his faith in Christ

The true way of becoming a Christian is to be justified by faith in Jesus Christ, and not by the works of the Law.

Here the question arises by what means are we justified? We answer with Paul, "By faith only in Christ are we pronounced righteous, and not by works."

Seeing what Luther believed and taught it is not hard to understand why he taught so many other heresies. Luther was not taught of God, and it was reflected also in his translation of the Bible. In e.g. Romans 3:22 he mistranslated the Greek so as to read "faith in Jesus Christ", when it should be "faith (or, faithfulness) OF Jesus Christ". Galatians 2:16 he likewise distorts. If righteousness comes by "faith in Jesus Christ" alone, as Luther obviously taught, then Paul is in hell right now. But blessed be God, righteousness is not by faith in Christ but by faithfulness OF Jesus Christ and in this righteousness Paul stood and rejoiced. According as it is written:

"Even a righteousness of God by faithfulness of Jesus Christ..." (Rom. 3:22)

and

"Being justified without a cause by means of the redemption, by the one in Christ Jesus" (3:24)

This is as clear as the noonday sun in its brightness, cp. also Rom. 5:19.

Many be they which have believed and taught as did Luther, among them the much praised C H Spurgeon, and sadly the vast majority of professing Christians as well as most branches of Baptists. Mark well, that the Bible nowhere exhorts a man to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be justified", NEVER. The perfect righteousness of Messias was imputed to Adam for righteousness in the sight of God and in this he rejoiced and gave glory to God. Thus also Paul and every true sheep of Christ. Perish the thought that Paul should have taught justification before God Almighty by an act of faith so called. Then Christ would have died in vain. Luther's heresy is antinomianism for in his doctrine the law is not magnified, as it to the contrary is in the biblical doctrine of free justification by Christ's righteousness by sovereign divine imputation. A true believer in Jesus Christ has been made such through a Gospel conversion experience in power and in Holy Spirit, and the Glad Tidings he then heard and believed by God's grace did by no means include the heresy of justification before God the Judge by or through an act of faith in Christ. If you call yourself Baptist and find yourself hostile to what I put forth you ought to consider that I merely echo what the Bible and what New Testament Christians and Particular Baptists of the past have taught and contended for. God forbid that I should glory save in Christ and Him having been crucified, for This One is God's power and God's Salvation to everyone that is in Him by everlasting divine decree, and especially to each believing in Him by God's mighty power. Let him that glorieth glory in the LORD. Amen.

Harald

 

This is an easy one although I am not a gospel regenerationist. As I said before, I do not even know what exactly that means. Adam was regenerated by the Spirit of God (as everyone is) but not apart from teh revelation of God. You somehow think that everything is tied to written Scripture. Yet it is not. For this age, the written word or the communication of the written word is indispensable. In the OT, man such as Adam was responsible for the revelation from God that he had.

The issue is not "Is the Holy Spirit unilaterally in action in regeneration?" Of course he is. The question is, Can faith come with hearing the word of Christ? The answer is unequivocally no. And since faith is absolutely indispensable to salvation, the communication of the message of the word of Christ is also indispensable.

 

An addition to my post. I forgot the important words "by His grace" in my quoting Romans 3.24, after "without a cause".

Harald

 

Great post Herald...Couldn't have said it better myself!

Larry, you've missed the whole point of Herald's post. It is the faith OF Christ that saves us. His righteousness, which is the faith of Christ (Pilippians 3:9) is imputed to those who are born again of the Spirit of God. Upon hearing the Gospel, the righteousness (faith of Christ) is revealed (not given). It is revealed from faith (the faith of Christ) to our own personal faith (Romans 1:17). Our faith is reactionary to His.

We are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8), that is, the faith OF Jesus Christ (Galatians 2:16). When the gospel reveals this to us, we believe through grace (Acts 18:27).

Ou personal faith most certainly does come by hearing the Gospel, but the faith with which we are justified does not. The gospel saves ("delivers") God's people, that is, those who have been regenerated. I can remember when an elder preached deliverance my way. No, it didn't give me life in Christ, but it sure did reveal the life and immortality that was already there! (2 Timothy 1:10)

 

It is interesting the lengths to which Scripture goes to connect our faith and the necessity of our belief to our justification and salvation. I don't think we should do less simply because of what someone has said to us. Our faith is absolutely indispensable to our justification in the writing of Paul.

 

Christopher, you are mistaken about the Galatians passage you keep citing. For one, a doctrine shouldn't hang on one passage alone. Second, every modern version that I find says faith in Christ. You are not only basing a doctrine on one verse, you are basing it on the KJV of all translations. Shame. The greek doesn't support your doctrine on this.

 

Well guess what??? I don't need your modern-day perversions of God's word. And no, my belief is not on one verse (cf. Rom. 3:22; Gal. 2:16; 3:22; Phil. 3:9).

Scripture for this please??? I see the faith OF Christ in Galatians 2:16 but not OUR faith.

 

Oh yeah, what does it mean to believe through grace??? (Acts 18:27)

 

Let me encourage you to back off the rhetoric. What is being presented here is not a modern day perversion of God's word even though you disagree with it.

Scripture for this please??? I see the faith OF Christ in Galatians 2:16 but not OUR faith.</font>[/QUOTE]Let’s start with Christ
Luke 7:48-50 Then He said to her, "Your sins have been forgiven." Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves, "Who is this man who even forgives sins?" And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

And on to Paul:
Romans 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. – In context, the faith cannot be the faith of Christ for it is contrasted with the works of the Law which Christ kept perfectly. It is clearly our faith by which we are justified.

Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, -- Notice that it is “his faith,” i.e., the one who does not work, that is counted as righteousness, or justified.

1 Corinthians 15:14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. – “Your faith” is obviously that which you place in Christ and it is in vain if Christ did not rise from the dead. What is it in vain for? For the final resurrection.

Galatians 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified – Without deep study, the immediate contrast is again between faith and works. It makes no sense to contrast the faith of Christ with the works of the Law.

Galatians 3:8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, -- Faith here is clearly said to be the means of justification. In the context of Gal 3, it is the faith of the Galatians by which they were justified rather than the works of the Law (cf. 3:2).

Galatians 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. – Here sonship (an aspect of salvation) is explicitly said to be through faith in Christ Jesus. This is not the genitive construction of the others.

[ May 09, 2002, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

Pastor Larry is correct.

The Apostle Paul makes it clear

God uses the proclamation of the Gospel to bring His elect to salvation. There is a certain fatalism involved in the Hardshell or hypercalvinist view (and I mean no disprespect to my PB friends). This often leads to Churches to be lazy and ignore witnessing, tract evangelism, mission work which is rebellion against Christ. We are commanded by Christ to preach the Gospel (Mk.16:15-16) and those who believe are saved those who do not are damned.

 

Primitive Baptists most certainly do believe in evangelism. Some elders of the Old Line Primitive Baptists just established a church in India. And about tract evangelism...That is as foreign to the word of God as anything. Where did Paul the apostle hand a gospel tract to someone that instructed them to "receieve Christ as their personal Saviour?" It's not in there. Rather, they preached to them, just like the Primitive Baptists do.

For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith. (Romans 1:17)

[ May 09, 2002, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: Christopher ]

 

The 4 Gospels themselves were the first tracts. The Gospel of Mark was placed on Community message boards throughout Rome by the early Christians as were portions of other Gospels. These Gospels were passed around, copied telling the Gospel message to Jews, Greeks, Romans and other Gentiles in the early years of Christianity. I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would be against distributing the Word of God to the unconverted be it in tract form (We give out Gospels of John) or in New Testament or Bible form or even a good Gospel tract that presenrs the plan of Salvation in a clear in Biblical way (and not in poor Arminian,Pelagian form of the Strawman argument you use).