Pharaoh and the Egyptians

Hi everyone;
Haven't any of you had your mind changed by someone or thing?.
Free will is a fact even though God did indeed harden pharaoh's heart.He also change the mind of Jonah.How did He do this? The Bible doesn't say that He forced pharaoh's heart to harden, does it?.He also didn't force Jonah to go to Nineveh. I believe He just changed there circumstances.There free will stayed in tact.They still could have chosen the opposite.Even people change the hearts of other men by the same means. Does it affect there free will to choose?.You might say well Jonah didn't have much of a choice.This may be true but, choice never the less.We have the same choice, either choose God and live in paradise or go to hell.not much of a choice you say. Then how come it seems that most are on there way to hell?.Some know there is a God and don't care they'd actually rather go to hell than commit them selves to God.What can we say then it's there choice.

Romanbear
Peace

 

As the Bible teaches only Adam had the chance to exercise truly free will. Sorry, romanbear, but your desire to claim you have the same truly free will as Adam falls on the basis of Biblical facts.

Salvation is of the Lord, not of free will, as Jonah learned.

I hope this helps.

Ken

 

Let's leave the wording as it is. God said He would do so and He did. It gives us no excuse to change it to 'have already hardened' for..

"God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth..."

 

Who has said that?

Ken

 

Hi Ken;
Quote from Ken;
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As the Bible teaches only Adam had the chance to exercise truly free will. Sorry, romanbear, but your desire to claim you have the same truly free will as Adam falls on the basis of Biblical facts.
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I know of nowhere in scripture that say's Adam was the only one to have free choice. Do you have scripture that backs this statement up? I can be wrong and I would be the first to admit it if you can show a valid scripture supporting this.What I mean by valid scripture is not just a verse taken out of context, but a verses where at least the verses's before and after are clearly saying so when read together.

Romanbear
Peace

 

Ephesians 2:1-10(NASB)
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Adam was not created spiritually dead, but we are spiritually dead. Therefore, this is an effect of the Fall in the Garden of Eden.

Romans 8:5-9(NASB)
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

We are live in the flesh in hostility toward God. Adam was not created in hostility toward God. Therefore, this is a result of the Fall.

Galatians 5:13-17(NASB)
13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

When Adam was created there was no war within him between his flesh and the Spirit. This came about as a result of the Fall.

I hope this helps.

Ken

 

He did, although God knew Pharoah's heart and what it would do when He shined his light on it. Call it foreknowledge, but not foreordination.

 

First of all - credit where credit is due. The case of the Egyptians in both the OT and in Romans 9 is an excellent staging ground for Calvinism. I like to see a consistent well thought out approach.

And now for the opposition.

Where in the above scenario would you place Satan? God's right hand man? Partners? Possibly he too is simply acting under orders from God?

"Or" - do you view him as opposing God's "plans". Is Satantrying to get the Egyptians to "love" the Hebrews and thereby foil God's plans?

Is God "Love" sometimes - and in so doing - placing Satan in direct opposition ... while at "other times" God is joining with Satan (actively/proactively) creating "hate"?

Is this the "God IS love just as much as God IS hate" doctrine coming back up?

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Arminians consider that in A free will system where God knows all - enabling "free will" creates another variable that can "also be employed" by an all-knowing God to accomplish His ends.

The Calvinist "assumption" of course is that God does not support free will - (the history of Lucifer and Adam and Eve not withstanding) - but that depraved being are simply "reliable" in doing evil and so by "not" turning them toward love and grace - God effectively "uses them" for His own purposes.

Gives an entirely new dimension to the slaughter of infants in Moses' day, Christ's day and to the actions of Hitler toward the Jews.

If America goes to war with some country - should we view "hate of the enemy" as being proactively "of God" such that the POWs we hold may be abused?? How much should we cooperate with God's plans?

In Christ,

Bob

[ November 30, 2002, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

If Pharoah were to choose differently, would not God have foreknown that? Foreknowledge does not lead to a forced will. Man can be completely free and God can be completely sovereign at the same time. It is not a problem for me - it seems to be only a problem for you.

 

I don't think it does, no matter what you think of foreknowledge. However, foreknowledge does render certainty and therefore Pharoah had lost the ability to change his mind before he was ever confronted with the miracles and plagues. That seems inconsistent with your position.

This is not a problem for me. This is what I and calvinists have argued from day one, long before you and I were ever alive. Free will is the ability to act in accordance with the nature. It is only your definition that creates a problem.

I am still wondering how Pharaoh can have a free will if he cannot change his mind. How does that qualify for freedom?</font>[/QUOTE]Divine foreknowledge is knowing before the fact after the fact. Pharoah could choose whatever he wanted to - either for or against letting the Egyptians go. God knew ahead of time what that decision would be, as he saw a future action. Maybe I'm just thinking more dimensionally - so how about this. God saw the end of time and all the choices that had been made. He then comes to the beginning of time as far as his knowledge. God is outside of time, man is inside time. Man can make a free choice in the boundaries of time. God knows that free choice outside of the boundaries of time.

 

The problem is that you are thinking too linearly. Look at God as being outside of time, and you will be able to see how man can be truly completely free, yet God can have divine foreknowledge. God is still omnipotent in that He is the one who set the rules in motion.

 

Hi ken;
I'm sorry but, I still don't see how you get this from those passages,in that Adam was the only one to have free will.I think I see what you are talking about maybe.If you are saying that we had no choice in being a sinner your right because we are born in sin.This how ever has nothing to do with free will.we have a choice to either remain in sin or choose to follow Christ.Didn't Christ offer the richman who came to him a choice
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"Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me."

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What about this richman wasn't he offered a chance to follow Christ and didn't he use his free will and turn the lord down. Choice is the only way Christ could have real Love.You can't have real Love if you make people Love you.I realize that somehow you believe that these scriptures you've presented confirm your beliefs I understand to you they are conformation but to me they say something different.

Eph 2:1-10 The Ephesians are called to look at their state of sin.

Romans 8:5-9 Is about the freedom from condemnation and about there privileges of them being the children of God.

Gal,5:13-26 Are instructions to walk in the Spirit, and not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh: the works of both are described.

I realize that no one seems to get the exact same message from any scripture but most are at least similar. Believe me when I say that I'm trying to understand.What I need, is to see it in scripture before I can believe it. So far it's all speculation. It has to be in scripture or it isn't so.If it's not there then it's someone elses idea and not God's.Most likely John Calvins idea.

Romanbear

Peace

 

God is love, He doesn't "choose" to love. Does that mean it's not real if He loves us?

Regardless of how you choose to answer that, IMO there is no foundation upon which to assert that free will is necessary for love to be worthwhile. It used to sound logical to me a long time ago, but that was a leftover from how I felt about romantic relationships. And that's based on man's crippled and limited knowledge of how things work. Whether or not I see it rightly, I have to admit I don't see it the way I used to. If God wants to make me love Him -- and love my brothers and sisters in the Lord -- I say bring it on, baby!