Pharaoh and the Egyptians

romanbear · Nov 29, 2002

Hi everyone;

Haven't any of you had your mind changed by someone or thing?.

Free will is a fact even though God did indeed harden pharaoh's heart.He also change the mind of Jonah.How did He do this? The Bible doesn't say that He forced pharaoh's heart to harden, does it?.He also didn't force Jonah to go to Nineveh. I believe He just changed there circumstances.There free will stayed in tact.They still could have chosen the opposite.Even people change the hearts of other men by the same means. Does it affect there free will to choose?.You might say well Jonah didn't have much of a choice.This may be true but, choice never the less.We have the same choice, either choose God and live in paradise or go to hell.not much of a choice you say. Then how come it seems that most are on there way to hell?.Some know there is a God and don't care they'd actually rather go to hell than commit them selves to God.What can we say then it's there choice.

Romanbear
Peace

KenH · Nov 29, 2002

Originally posted by romanbear:
Their free will stayed intact

As the Bible teaches only Adam had the chance to exercise truly free will. Sorry, romanbear, but your desire to claim you have the same truly free will as Adam falls on the basis of Biblical facts.

Salvation is of the Lord, not of free will, as Jonah learned.

I hope this helps.

Ken

Chrift · Nov 30, 2002

The difficulty you are up against is how to change I will harden Pharoah's heart into I know that Pharoah will harden his heart.

Let's leave the wording as it is. God said He would do so and He did. It gives us no excuse to change it to 'have already hardened' for..

"God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth..."

KenH · Nov 30, 2002

Originally posted by Chrift:
It gives us no excuse to change it to 'have already hardened' for..

Who has said that?

Ken

Pastor Larry · Nov 30, 2002

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
I believe we may be in agreement. God did allow Pharaoh to come to power. His plans for the Hebrews came to pass because of His sovereignty. And we would both agree (let us hope) that Pharoah did what he did out of his own depraved free will...

Rom 9 seems to indicate more than "allow;" it says he "raised him up." I do believe his plans came to pass because of his sovereignty and I do believe that Pharoah did what he did out of his own depraved will.

However, as for hearts, it would be incumbent on you to show these two different kinds of hearts in Scripture. All men's hearts are depraved until God changes them. When he changes them, they respond. He obviously had not changed hte Egyptians hearts.

Lastly, Helen (to my knowledge) has never answered my question regarding the implications of Ex 4:21 where God says beforehand that he will harden Pharoahs's heart. The dilemma is that either Pharaoh had no free will and could not respond to the miracles and plagues or God's knowledge is incomplete and faulty. The question is: Did Pharoah have a free will to change his mind or did he not?

romanbear · Nov 30, 2002

Hi Ken;

Quote from Ken;
________________________________________________________________
As the Bible teaches only Adam had the chance to exercise truly free will. Sorry, romanbear, but your desire to claim you have the same truly free will as Adam falls on the basis of Biblical facts.
_________________________________________________________________
I know of nowhere in scripture that say's Adam was the only one to have free choice.

Do you have scripture that backs this statement up? I can be wrong and I would be the first to admit it if you can show a valid scripture supporting this.What I mean by valid scripture is not just a verse taken out of context, but a verses where at least the verses's before and after are clearly saying so when read together.

Romanbear
Peace

KenH · Nov 30, 2002

Ephesians 2:1-10(NASB)
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Adam was not created spiritually dead, but we are spiritually dead. Therefore, this is an effect of the Fall in the Garden of Eden.

Romans 8:5-9(NASB)
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

We are live in the flesh in hostility toward God. Adam was not created in hostility toward God. Therefore, this is a result of the Fall.

Galatians 5:13-17(NASB)
13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

When Adam was created there was no war within him between his flesh and the Spirit. This came about as a result of the Fall.

I hope this helps.

Ken

ScottEmerson · Nov 30, 2002

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
The question is: Did Pharoah have a free will to change his mind or did he not?

He did, although God knew Pharoah's heart and what it would do when He shined his light on it. Call it foreknowledge, but not foreordination.

BobRyan · Nov 30, 2002

Pastor Larry
I believe he would. I believe it is demonstrated in many places in Scripture that the God of Scripture does indeed accomplish his will as he pleases by acting (not reacting) to accomplish his will. This text argues that God was behind the hatred of the Egyptians to accomplish the deliverance of his people so that at the end "Egypt was glad when they departed" (v. 38).

First of all - credit where credit is due. The case of the Egyptians in both the OT and in Romans 9 is an excellent staging ground for Calvinism. I like to see a consistent well thought out approach.

And now for the opposition.

Where in the above scenario would you place Satan? God's right hand man? Partners? Possibly he too is simply acting under orders from God?

"Or" - do you view him as opposing God's "plans". Is Satantrying to get the Egyptians to "love" the Hebrews and thereby foil God's plans?

Is God "Love" sometimes - and in so doing - placing Satan in direct opposition ... while at "other times" God is joining with Satan (actively/proactively) creating "hate"?

Is this the "God IS love just as much as God IS hate" doctrine coming back up?

=======================================

Arminians consider that in A free will system where God knows all - enabling "free will" creates another variable that can "also be employed" by an all-knowing God to accomplish His ends.

The Calvinist "assumption" of course is that God does not support free will - (the history of Lucifer and Adam and Eve not withstanding) - but that depraved being are simply "reliable" in doing evil and so by "not" turning them toward love and grace - God effectively "uses them" for His own purposes.

Gives an entirely new dimension to the slaughter of infants in Moses' day, Christ's day and to the actions of Hitler toward the Jews.

If America goes to war with some country - should we view "hate of the enemy" as being proactively "of God" such that the POWs we hold may be abused?? How much should we cooperate with God's plans?

In Christ,

Bob

[ November 30, 2002, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

Pastor Larry · Dec 1, 2002

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
The question is: Did Pharoah have a free will to change his mind or did he not?

He did, although God knew Pharoah's heart and what it would do when He shined his light on it. Call it foreknowledge, but not foreordination.[/QUOTE]Why does this matter? If God knows it and it is foreknown (using your definition rather than Scripture's), then he still can't change his mind, and by definition (that you guys have given), he has lost his free will. If a man cannot do anything else (such as Pharaoh), then he does not have a free will ( according to you). It remains a problem since your "solution" doens't solve it.

Pastor Larry · Dec 1, 2002

Originally posted by BobRyan:
First of all - credit where credit is due. The case of the Egyptians in both the OT and in Romans 9 is an excellent staging ground for Calvinism. I like to see a consistent well thought out approach.

It has been laid out in numerous places that are widely available.

Where in the above scenario would you place Satan? God's right hand man? Partners? Possibly he too is simply acting under orders from God?

Satan is trying to get men to sin. He is not trying to "foil God's plan" as you seem to suggest. His goal is the increased sinfulness of man.

Is this the "God IS love just as much as God IS hate" doctrine coming back up?

It doesn't seem like it.

The Calvinist "assumption" of course is that God does not support free will - (the history of Lucifer and Adam and Eve not withstanding) - but that depraved being are simply "reliable" in doing evil and so by "not" turning them toward love and grace - God effectively "uses them" for His own purposes.

No, it is the calvinist system that supports free will. We do not deny it. We define it biblically, as the ability to act in accord with the nature. Your definition denies the freedom of God. Scripture will not tolerate that.

As far as "cooperating with God" (as you put it), your questions are answered in Romans 3:1-10 where Paul answers the question with a "May it never be." If you spent more time studying Scripture rather than concocting the cockamamie schemes in your head, these questions would be answered and we could move on to other things.

BobRyan · Dec 1, 2002

Pastor Larry
I believe it is demonstrated in many places in Scripture that the God of Scripture does indeed accomplish his will as he pleases by acting (not reacting) to accomplish his will. This text argues that God was behind the hatred of the Egyptians to accomplish the deliverance of his people so that at the end "Egypt was glad when they departed" (v. 38).

Bob - quoting a privous Calvinist post on this board - in connection with Pastor Larry's point -
Is this the "God IS love just as much as God IS hate" doctrine coming back up?[/quote

Pastor Larry " God was behind the hatred of the Egyptians"

And then Pastor Larry responds to the "God is hate" idea already posted by another Calvinist

Pastor Larry
It doesn't seem like it.

Click to expand...

Oh I see - but as you say " God was behind the hatred of the Egyptians".

I guess you're still working through that one.

Bob

Where in the above scenario would you place Satan?
Since (as you say ) "God is BEHIND the HATRED of the Egyptians".
Is Satan God's right hand man?
Are they Partners?
Possibly he too is simply acting under orders from God?

"Or is Satan opposing God in this case and trying to get the Egyptians to LOVE the Hebrews?"

Click to expand...

IN your efforts to reach for an ad hominem response you seem to have forgotten to address the points.

You know, "God who is behind the hatred" vs Satan..?

Pastor Larry

Satan is trying to get men to sin. He is not trying to "foil God's plan" as you seem to suggest. His goal is the increased sinfulness of man.

Click to expand...

And so are you saying that Satan would be trying to get these egyptians to go along with God "who is Behind the hatred" and "hate? or ARe you saying that since God wanted them to hate - it would be a sin to "love" against God's will - so then Satan is trying to get them to "love" the Hebrews?

Just pick a specific solution and show how your idea works.

(Or I suppose you could opt for more ad hominem until you find that solution - either way).

Pastor Larry
If you spent more time studying Scripture rather than concocting the cockamamie schemes ....

Click to expand...

Bravo! Nice compelling response Pastor. I know I for one - learned a lot from that. But could you answer the question please?

In Christ,

Bob

[ December 01, 2002, 12:41 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

ScottEmerson · Dec 1, 2002

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Why does this matter? If God knows it and it is foreknown (using your definition rather than Scripture's), then he still can't change his mind, and by definition (that you guys have given), he has lost his free will. If a man cannot do anything else (such as Pharaoh), then he does not have a free will ( according to you). It remains a problem since your "solution" doens't solve it.[/QB]

If Pharoah were to choose differently, would not God have foreknown that? Foreknowledge does not lead to a forced will. Man can be completely free and God can be completely sovereign at the same time. It is not a problem for me - it seems to be only a problem for you.

Pastor Larry · Dec 1, 2002

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Oh I see - but as you say " God was behind the hatred of the Egyptians".

I guess you're still working through that one.

Not working through it. Did that a long time ago. The Bible (not Larry) says that God turned their hearts against his people. Are you going to deny that? Consider for analogy, David's numbering of the people. 2 Samuel tells us that Satan was behind it, 1 Chronicles tells us God was. It is easy to see that God works through what we call secondary causation.

IN your efforts to reach for an ad hominem response you seem to have forgotten to address the points.

You know, "God who is behind the hatred" vs Satan..?

There was no ad hominem at all. I am not sure where you got that from. I did address the point by directing you to Rom 3 where Paul answers your question as I understand your question. I think it is a valid question that many people have. I think that is why Paul addressed it ... because many people have it.

The point is that even when my sin fulfils the plan of God, I am still held responsible for it because sin is sin. I cannot call God unfair or unjust. That is Paul's point in Rom 3:1-10.

And so are you saying that Satan would be trying to get these egyptians to go along with God "who is Behind the hatred" and "hate? or ARe you saying that since God wanted them to hate - it would be a sin to "love" against God's will - so then Satan is trying to get them to "love" the Hebrews?

Just pick a specific solution and show how your idea works.

Satan always tries to get men to sin. That is simple. Again, consider the numbering of the people by David or consider the murder of Christ by the Jews. Peter says in Acts 3 it was the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, yet the Jews were still held responsible for it. The hatred of the Egyptians was the result of sin in their lives and it was in accordance with God's eternal plan. Again, this stuff is so basic to any study on Theology Proper that it makes me wonder what you are doing following this line of questioning.

Bravo! Nice compelling response Pastor. I know I for one - learned a lot from that. But could you answer the question please?

I did answer the question, both there and here again. If you misunderstood the answer, the proper response is to ask for clarification, not respond with sarcasm ...

which leads me to a note of board etiquette, you have been pushing the limits of board rules for demeanor and etiquette for some time. I have largely overlooked it, hoping that you would bring your demeanor into line with what is expected here of everyone. So far you have failed to do so. Please consider this a friendly encouragement to reject the sarcasm and charges of ad hominem attacks (unless you can substantiate them). We are trying to carry on a civil discussion here. I understand it gets heated at times but we all must keep our emotions in check. If you have further questions, please feel free to PM me and I will respond to you personally. Thanks.

Pastor Larry · Dec 1, 2002

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
If Pharoah were to choose differently, would not God have foreknown that? Foreknowledge does not lead to a forced will.

I don't think it does, no matter what you think of foreknowledge. However, foreknowledge does render certainty and therefore Pharoah had lost the ability to change his mind before he was ever confronted with the miracles and plagues. That seems inconsistent with your position.

Man can be completely free and God can be completely sovereign at the same time. It is not a problem for me - it seems to be only a problem for you.

This is not a problem for me. This is what I and calvinists have argued from day one, long before you and I were ever alive. Free will is the ability to act in accordance with the nature. It is only your definition that creates a problem.

I am still wondering how Pharaoh can have a free will if he cannot change his mind. How does that qualify for freedom?

ScottEmerson · Dec 1, 2002

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
If Pharoah were to choose differently, would not God have foreknown that? Foreknowledge does not lead to a forced will.

I don't think it does, no matter what you think of foreknowledge. However, foreknowledge does render certainty and therefore Pharoah had lost the ability to change his mind before he was ever confronted with the miracles and plagues. That seems inconsistent with your position.

Man can be completely free and God can be completely sovereign at the same time. It is not a problem for me - it seems to be only a problem for you.

Click to expand...

This is not a problem for me. This is what I and calvinists have argued from day one, long before you and I were ever alive. Free will is the ability to act in accordance with the nature. It is only your definition that creates a problem.

I am still wondering how Pharaoh can have a free will if he cannot change his mind. How does that qualify for freedom?[/QUOTE]Divine foreknowledge is knowing before the fact after the fact. Pharoah could choose whatever he wanted to - either for or against letting the Egyptians go. God knew ahead of time what that decision would be, as he saw a future action. Maybe I'm just thinking more dimensionally - so how about this. God saw the end of time and all the choices that had been made. He then comes to the beginning of time as far as his knowledge. God is outside of time, man is inside time. Man can make a free choice in the boundaries of time. God knows that free choice outside of the boundaries of time.

Pastor Larry · Dec 1, 2002

I don't think it helps for this reason: Once God knows it, it is impossible to change. So what was the purpose of the plagues?? They couldn't have been to change his mind because God knew it wouldn't be changed, and thus it couldn't be changed.

To bring that more into focus, if God knows all things (including who will be saved, regardless of causation), what is the point of preaching the gospel. Everyone who God knows will choose him will choose him anyway and everyone who God knows will reject him will reject him anyway. The end, as I have said before, is that your end is the same as ours--people who can't change their mind; your God is just not in control of it. His is an "after the fact" sovereignty, something that renders him omnicompetent rather than omnipotent and that is the problem I have with your position.

ScottEmerson · Dec 1, 2002

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
I don't think it helps for this reason: Once God knows it, it is impossible to change. So what was the purpose of the plagues?? They couldn't have been to change his mind because God knew it wouldn't be changed, and thus it couldn't be changed.

To bring that more into focus, if God knows all things (including who will be saved, regardless of causation), what is the point of preaching the gospel. Everyone who God knows will choose him will choose him anyway and everyone who God knows will reject him will reject him anyway. The end, as I have said before, is that your end is the same as ours--people who can't change their mind; your God is just not in control of it. His is an "after the fact" sovereignty, something that renders him omnicompetent rather than omnipotent and that is the problem I have with your position.

The problem is that you are thinking too linearly. Look at God as being outside of time, and you will be able to see how man can be truly completely free, yet God can have divine foreknowledge. God is still omnipotent in that He is the one who set the rules in motion.

romanbear · Dec 1, 2002

Hi ken;

I'm sorry but, I still don't see how you get this from those passages,in that Adam was the only one to have free will.I think I see what you are talking about maybe.If you are saying that we had no choice in being a sinner your right because we are born in sin.This how ever has nothing to do with free will.we have a choice to either remain in sin or choose to follow Christ.Didn't Christ offer the richman who came to him a choice
__________________________________________________________________
"Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me."

__________________________________________________________________________

What about this richman wasn't he offered a chance to follow Christ and didn't he use his free will and turn the lord down. Choice is the only way Christ could have real Love.You can't have real Love if you make people Love you.I realize that somehow you believe that these scriptures you've presented confirm your beliefs I understand to you they are conformation but to me they say something different.

Eph 2:1-10 The Ephesians are called to look at their state of sin.

Romans 8:5-9 Is about the freedom from condemnation and about there privileges of them being the children of God.

Gal,5:13-26 Are instructions to walk in the Spirit, and not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh: the works of both are described.

I realize that no one seems to get the exact same message from any scripture but most are at least similar. Believe me when I say that I'm trying to understand.What I need, is to see it in scripture before I can believe it. So far it's all speculation. It has to be in scripture or it isn't so.If it's not there then it's someone elses idea and not God's.Most likely John Calvins idea.

Romanbear

Peace

npetreley · Dec 2, 2002

Originally posted by romanbear:
Choice is the only way Christ could have real Love. You can't have real Love if you make people Love you.

God is love, He doesn't "choose" to love. Does that mean it's not real if He loves us?

Regardless of how you choose to answer that, IMO there is no foundation upon which to assert that free will is necessary for love to be worthwhile. It used to sound logical to me a long time ago, but that was a leftover from how I felt about romantic relationships. And that's based on man's crippled and limited knowledge of how things work. Whether or not I see it rightly, I have to admit I don't see it the way I used to. If God wants to make me love Him -- and love my brothers and sisters in the Lord -- I say bring it on, baby!

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