confused about Calvin (Page 21) Round two

I do want to say to those I have disagreed with so far (I assume that would be Me4Him, Timtoolman, and standingfirminChrist) that I appreciate the passion that you have for the purity of the gospel and for the lost. If you have the same passion for actually sharing the gospel with people as you do for defending it here, then I applaud you. More of us need to have the same...

 

But what motivates some to accept it while others remain non-receptive?

Are those who receive better? Smarter? Wiser?

Why do those who believe do so?

This is the inescapable problem of all of your arguments... you ultimately either have to abandon your system or acknowledge that it bases salvation on some amount of individual merit. </font>[/QUOTE]The "Free Gift" came upon "ALL MEN",...IF...they'll accept it.

Is your reading comprehesion really "that bad"?? </font>[/QUOTE]Sigh.... yes, the gift of God is eternal life and comes to everyone if they will accept it. This is not the issue here. The Bible is clear - no one will accept it unless God works a miracle in their hearts. But the free gift in Romans 5 is not the option of accepting eternal life. IT IS JUSTIFICATION. Not the option of possible justification if they will just believe but actual justification. Don't you see the problem here? Justification means "declared righteous." Are every person who ever lived since Adam declared righteous? NO!!!! So this passage can not refer to everyone who has ever lived.

Even Arminian theologians admit this. They interpret the "all men" who receive justification as all those who have believed and are therefore of the race of the New Adam - Jesus Christ. Calvinists have no problem with this interpretation. We just say that all those who believe are those whom God has chosen and predestined (Romans 8:29-30).

You keep using this verse and I keep telling you that your interpretation can only lead to universalism.

 

Calvibaptist:
a spiritually dead person, respond in repentance and faith and then are justified and regenerated. In other words, you birth yourself again. Now...is that what Jesus said in John 3?

Timtoolman
Here in lies your problem. You don’t listen. You can use terms like spiritually dead or total depravity but you cannot use them outside what the bible does, or how it defines them. Now I have already proven you definition of spiritual death does not mean men cannot recognize, or respond to God or vice a versa. Now let’s look at the Holy Spirit here. The Holy Spirit is our guide, He leds us to truth. Now listen. God has done the work of salvation through Jesus Christ on the cross, now the work of conviction and truth (guiding) is being done by God’s Spirit. Now when the Holy Spirit convicts, though the preaching of the word etc then man must decide whom he will follow. “Choose this day whom you will follow” CHOOSE! Its there, it’s biblical and you can’t escape it or explain it away. Otherwise there would be more Calvinist.

Calvibaptist:
John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Timtoolman:

Let’s not forget the verse that says “I will draw ALL men unto me”. Why not quote the two together. They are talking about the same thing. Drawing. Calvinist likes to leave that part out, along with other scriptures.
Calvinist like to throw this verse out as if they have discovered something that backs up the teachings of J. Calvin. Let’s look at the whole context. Verse 39.

And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of that He has given ME I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day
Verse 40 HERE are the ones given…..
For this is the will of MY Father, that everyone who beholds the son AND BELIEVES in HIM , may have eternal life. And I Myself will raise him up on the last days.

Hmmm…it’s not the drawing that saves it is the belief. Now if God draws all but all do not respond then only those that believe will be raised up. All drawn, not all believe.

Cal:
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Timtoolman
Yep, no problem here. Men in the flesh cannot please God or grow spiritually unless they first head the drawing. No contradiction here.

Cal:
READ THIS: The natural man (the one not operating in the Spirit) not only does not receive the things of the Spirit but is UNABLE. He cannot know them because they are spiritually discerned and he is not spiritual; he is natural.


Timtoolman:
Yes but does that mean that scripture is lying when is says that God has put into the conscious of man that He does exist. And I have showed you two fallen people who knew and retain in their knowledge who God was and responded to Him. So your definition of man unable to respond to God holds no water scripturally.

Cal:
Do you have any verses (not philosophical arguments) that explicitly say that men are able, without a special grace of God, to obey God's commandments. I am not asking for a verse that gives a commandment. Nor am I looking for a verse that tells people to call on the name of the Lord. Nor am I looking for a verse that tells people to repent and believe. I am looking for a verse that says that ordinary human beings are able to do any of that without God's special enabling.

Timtoolman:
I have shown you a real example. Now can you show me one where it says we are regenerated before we are saved? Don’t give me Calvinistic lingo but a specific verse that says that specially?

Cal:

It does NOT say he can call. It says he is required to call. Don't assume a requirement equals an ability.

Timtoolman:
He can call, it is written as a pt of information. It is not a command.

God Bless,
Tim

 

And I have already shown you (despite your so-called proof) at least two verses that says that spiritually dead men cannot and will not recognize or respond to God. Would you like me to copy and paste John 6:44 and 1 Corinthians 2:14 again? How about Romans 8:7?

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

Notice in all of these verses Jesus and Paul use the word "can." It is a very basic word in both English and the original Greek. It speaks of ability. Jesus says no man can (has ability) to come to me unless... Paul says the natural man cannot (does not have the ability to) know the things of the Spirit. Paul also says the carnal mind can not (does not have the ability to) be subject to the law of God. Total depravity is a just a word used to describe exactly what these passages say.

Yes, lets.

Sometimes I get real tired of repeating myself and the Scripture over again. GET IT OUT OF YOUR HEAD THAT CALVINISTS THINK YOU DON'T HAVE TO CHOOSE, BELIEVE, HAVE FAITH, ETC. IN ORDER TO BE SAVED. We all believe that. The Bible teaches that. But, John 3 is clear that being born again is the sovereign action of the Spirit, not the result of the faith of man.

John 3:7-8 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Only in verse 16, after the discussion of regeneration does Jesus then mention faith. Order of conversation is important. If Jesus wanted to teach Nicodemus that he must believe first in order to be born again, he would have talked about faith first. But he wanted to teach Nicodemus that he needed to be born from above (a literal rendering of the words translated "born again") in order to believe.

And don't think John just mixed the order up. He set us up to see this in the first chapter.

John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Who became the children of God? Those who received Him or believed on His name. Why did they believe on His name? Because they were born of the will of God. This is the plain, literal, normative meaning of these verses. (that was for you dispensationalists

 

One major problem with your contextualization of John 6. You left out verses 35-37 which begins the conversation of who the Father gives.

John 6:35-37 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Now, follow Jesus' argument here, because He is being very logical with the Pharisees. Jesus shows the benefit of coming to Him and believing in Him. Remember, Calvinists don't deny that you MUST come and believe. I'll repeat it again for emphasis: Calvinists don't deny that you MUST come and believe. Jesus then tells those rascally Pharisees that they had seen Him and still refused to believe. Yes, they rejected. They made a choice. How could anyone see the glorious Son of God and reject Him?

The answer is found in verse 37 - All that the Father gives to Me WILL come to me. Why hadn't the Pharisees come to Him? They were not given to Him by the Father. If they had been given to Him by the Father, they would have come to Him. Those are Jesus' words, not mine (or John Calvin's). What happens to those who are given to Jesus by the Father, who then (all of them) come to Him (believe)? He will not cast them out. BTW, this is one of the verses that supports Perseverance of the Saints (Once Saved-Always Saved) the most. But it is grounded not on the fact that the people came to Him (which they did), but on the fact that they were given to Jesus by the Father, which came first.

Why won't Jesus cast them out? Verse 38

John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

Jesus came to do the will of the father, so He won't cast out the ones that the Father gave Him, all of whom have also believed in Him. What is, then, the will of the Father? Verse 39-40

John 6:39-40 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

The very thing that Jesus came to do, keep those whom the Father has given Him, is the will of the Father. Verse 40 reiterates that those who the Father gives to the Son see the Son and believe in Him.

You are right that it is not the drawing that saves. Nor is it election that saves. Nor is it predestination that saves. It is grace that saves through faith. BUT, according to this very passage, only those whom the Father gives to the Son will have that faith to be saved. So there is no faith without first the giving.

THIS IS NOT MY TEACHING (OR J. CALVIN'S) IT IS STRAIGHT FROM THE MOUTH OF JESUS.

 

BTW, I don't quote John 6:44 and John 12:32 together because John separated them by 6 chapters. But if you must know...

John 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."

I must admit that the translators of the NKJ have done a little extra work for us because the word "peoples" does not exist. It is an addition (in italics) because that is how they interpreted it. It is also how I interpret it.

But, let's take your view for a second. Jesus was lifted up and because of that will draw all men to himself. He will draw every single person who has ever lived or who ever will live to himself. What about Judas? Was he drawn to Christ? No, he rejected Him. What about Caiaphas? Was he drawn to Christ? No, he took Him to Pilate to have Him crucified. I could go on, but those two should suffice.

You cannot make "drawing" in this verse mean the same thing as "drawing" in John 6. The "drawing" in John 6:44 results in the person coming to Him and being raised up on the last day.

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Again, follow His logic. He is once again explaining why the Pharisees still reject Him even after the last group of verses. His reason - no one can (is able) to come UNLESS the Father draws him. So, who does Jesus raise up on the last day? Who is the "him" in the last phrase? The one whom the Father draws. So, if somebody is not raised up on the last day, it is because they did not believe, which is because the Father did not draw them.

One more time: THIS IS NOT MY TEACHING (OR J. CALVIN'S) IT IS STRAIGHT FROM THE MOUTH OF JESUS.

 

No. Romans 1 just tells us that mankind naturally supress that truth.

Romans 1:18-21 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

No, you didn't. You showed me Adam and Eve. And I came back and said "maybe they were already regenerated when they responded." I can't prove that, but you can't prove that they weren't. So, it is pointless to hold them up as an example.

 

Calvibaptist. I have showen you how I believe you to be wrong on all accounts above. I too am tired of repeating myself or fightinng strawmen. If you are not sure what I have not answered, after re reading my posts, the let me know and I will take and cut and paste for you.

 

Does this include Adam?

Pure eisegesis. "Born of the will of God" only means that there is nothing man can do to earn salvation (not of blood = decendants, will of flesh = works). Those who believed BECAME children of God.

Yes, Judas is part of "all". I don't think you know the difference between drawing and accepting / rejecting based on your answer. Big difference.

I can prove that they were spiritually "dead", and I can prove that someone spiritually dead responded. Claiming they were "born again" because they did respond to God is pure speculation.

You can't base a theology on a writer's writing style. On this thread I addressed other places in Scripture that Paul did the same thing, but the meaning still remains the same.
Rom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may discern what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God.

[ February 18, 2006, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: webdog ]

 

Calvibaptist,

You are doing an excellent job explaining the clear meaning of the scriptures without human tradition. It's unfortunate that people like webdog can be corrected over and over, year after year, and still refuse to accept the Word of God's clear teaching.

It comes down to this:

They are offended that they have nothing to do with their own salvation.

 

OK, let's "follow your "LOGIC".

OT Saints did not have a "Drawing spirit" or "Comforter". (Holy Ghost)

Ec 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.

Now you said: His reason - no one can (is able) to come UNLESS the Father draws him.

For the most part, The "Spirit" in the OT only came to "Priest", "Kings" Prophets" and very few "common people".

How did these "Natural men" among the "common people" manage to "follow God" without a "Drawing/Calling" of the spirit to each from God???

Like the Jews, who believe God only works as he did under the OT, most Christian also believe God only works as he does under the NT.

This "MISTAKE" that Christians make is as serious as the "MISTAKE" the Jews made, in attempting to "BOX GOD IN" to either working as under the OT or working as in the NT.

Calvin's doctrine is only focused on the NT, and "Spiritual leadership" (HG) it can't/won't work if applied to the OT and leadership of the "Law and Prophets", but yet there's only one plan of salvation, and the explanation of that plan must include everything from Genesis/Revelations????

And this is where Calvin's doctrine "fails" by focusing only on the Type/method of leadership under the NT.

 

Ge 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Ge 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

I really don't think Calvin had a very good understanding of the "Responsibility" God placed in the "HANDS OF MAN" when he gave man "Stewardship" over the earth.

The earth will only produce what mans "Sows", God initially planted "WHEAT", man allowed the "THORNS/TARES" to be sowed/grow.

Ge 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

Calvin doctrine blames God for the existence of evil/unsaved people in the world instead of the real reason, the "UNFAITHFUL STEWARDSHIP" on man.

God has "NO DESIRE" to see any perish, and if they do, it's not because God hasn't provided a means for each and everyone to escape, he's no respector of persons/sinners where the offer of salvation is concerned.

Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Ac 10:34 Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

 

Wrong, webdog. You guys make such a big deal over "free WILL." Will means desire, not works. John 1 says they were born NOT OF THE WILL (DESIRE) OF THE FLESH (HUMAN NATURE) NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN.

It is pure eisegesis to say that because it doesn't fit you theological system that will all of a sudden means works. We are born of the will of God, not of man.

 

You start with a false premise, so the rest of your reasoning I will ignore. The OT Saints HAD have the Holy Spirit draw them or they would have never gotten saved.

The difference between the OT and the NT manifestation of the Spirit is one of permanency. Jesus said, "He is with you, but He shall be in you." The HS came and went in the OT as His ministry was more limited. But there is no indication that anyone was ever saved without the work of the Spirit.

 

Whats really funny is more and more poeple fall on the side of non calvinist then do. Some the few decieved actually think they have the truth?!

 

We do have something to do with our salvation. If we do not call on the name of the Lord, we cannot be saved. If we do not confess our sins, we cannot be saved. If we do not believe on the Lord, we cannot be saved.

God knocked Paul off of his high horse on that road to Damascus. Paul could have responded in one of two ways. He could have chosen to curse God and reject Him (after all, the light that shone about him did take his eyesight), or he could have accepted Jesus Christ as his only means of Salvation. I am glad Paul CHOSE Christ.

When Christ reveals Himself to people, they have a choice what to do with that revelation. The Spirit draws, but not all obey the Spirit. Many 'do always resist the Holy Ghost'.

 

Wrong, webdog. You guys make such a big deal over "free WILL." Will means desire, not works. John 1 says they were born NOT OF THE WILL (DESIRE) OF THE FLESH (HUMAN NATURE) NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN.

It is pure eisegesis to say that because it doesn't fit you theological system that will all of a sudden means works. We are born of the will of God, not of man. </font>[/QUOTE]Man had free will before the fall(where did he lose it and when could he not respond to God? Answer, he never lost it, and adam and eve continued to know and understand the word of God as shown in GEN!) and he still has it now. Unless you can prove otherwise then your just speaking into the wind. Remember just don't spit.

 

AMen Standing. Too me that is one of the simple truths of scriture that need not be debated. Then of cours,you have them little rascals, the calvinist.

 

true Timtoolman, but we must look at it in this light...

Paul also had a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of satan to buffet him.