confused about Calvin (Page 21) Round two

here is another to refute the Calvinist belief that God only saves the elect.

John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Doesn't say if I go out and get them, but 'if any man enter in'

John 7:37 is another great instance of man having free will.

That shows free will.

The phrase 'if any man' appears in the Bible 74 times.

 

Was "Abraham's Faith" given to him by God, or was it a "personal choice", made by Abraham???

Ro 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

If it was "God given", then why was it accounted to Abraham??

God calls, but the "CHOICE" to "Believe" is made by the individual, this is why:

Many are called, few are chosen.

All have sinned, one "offence" makes you as guilty as if you had offended all the laws, so "WHY" should God show "RESPECT" between sinners, the fact is he doesn't, Jesus died for the sins of the Whole world.

That's why "FAITH" is the only requirement on our part to be saved, death is the only payment/fulfilling the law for sin.

You're talking about things that occur "AFTER" being saved, not how/why you're saved.

BTW, you should also apply your "explanation" to Ro 9, those vessels fit for destruction are not the "handy work" of God, he only become a "potter" to mold your life "AFTER" being saved, Calvin says God created those "unfit vessels".

Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

Does God sin, "ineffectual", "Resistable" callings says he does???

Ro 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

God can't be "impartial Judge" Judging everyone according to their "DEEDS", under predestination, because he isn't judging according to the law but "personal predilection", remember the "Blindfold" on "lady law"???

You need to study "LAW", "JUSTICE", would you want a judge who was "prejudice/condemn" you and "Justify" others guilty of the same crime?? (respect of persons)

Calvin is wrong across the whole spectrum of scripture, not just "predestination".

 

Yep, Standing Firm, more evidence for free will. I am still waiting for someone to refute adam and eve's example of free will before and after.
I will say that Johnp has the best answer so far. God just makes everyone do everything like puppets, even SIN. The most consistant no matter how perverted. </font>[/QUOTE]You guys all assume too much. Just because the story says that God called out to them (vocally, I might add) and they answered, does this mean that the Holy Spirit hadn't, through the Word that God spoke to them, just regenerated them right before they answered? I pointed to Scriptures in the NT that detail for us that this is what must happen, and yet you assume because a story from a human standpoint in the OT doesn't say it, it didn't happen.

This story of Adam and Eve was not meant to be a textbook case of how salvation works. It is there to show us God's reconciling man to Himself because of the Fall. Don't look for every detail in every story. If you want to know details of doctrine, look for doctrinal sections. </font>[/QUOTE]No answer! Thank you!

 

Calvie that is a proverb, a spiffy saying. Not talking about textbook decisions by man.

 

No Tim God does.

PR 20:24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD...

PR 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.

PS 94:11 The LORD knows the thoughts of man; he knows that they are futile.

PS 139:2 You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar.

PR 16:1 To man belong the plans of the heart, but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue.


john. </font>[/QUOTE]So God directed everyone's footsteps to the pt of continuelly thinking and doing evil. Come on step up. Is this what you are saying God is saying?!!!

 

Hi Tim,

I'm not sure what it is about Adam and Eve that you think disproves Calvinism. Could you summarize it for me? Thanks in advance. </font>[/QUOTE]Go back and read my post.

 

No Calvinist denies free will before the fall. Martin Luther used a Latin phrase that basically said that they were able to choose to sin or to choose righteousness. AFTER the fall, however, Luther (and the Bible) says that we can only (and will only) choose to sin. Regeneration is what puts us back in the place where we can choose righteousness and sin. When we get to heaven, BTW, we will only be able to choose righteousness. What happens to "free will" then? And why is it ok for humans not to have free will in heaven? </font>[/QUOTE]Who said we won't have "FREE WILL" in heaven??

This earth is in the condition it's in because of "FREE WILL", or don't you understand the parables??

The "Earth" was a "Wheat Field" God planted, of which he intents to "HARVEST" then "BURN", so why didn't God just created the earth without sin as he will the "NEW Earth"????

Why was the "ANGELS" of Heaven given ""FREE WILL" to chose between God/Satan, and why was man given the choice between the "TREES"???

The "OLD" Earth/Heaven will "pass away" and only those "Angels/Men" who have made a "FREE WILL CHOICE" to follow God will inhabit the New "Earth/Heaven".

This earth is nothing but a "Proving grounds" of "FREE WILL" for Angels/Men because God doesn't want "robots", but "individuals" with different "taste" for things, the only thing missing from the new earth will be the "tree of Good/evil", but then those who are on the new earth have already made a "FREE WILL CHOICE" not to eat of that tree.

Mt 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

Mt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mt 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Mt 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Ro 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

Calvin can't explain why this world was created to be harvested/destroyed, but it's because of "FREE WILL" given to Angels/Man.

 

Are you suggesting that we will be able to sin in heaven? If so, I think you need to do a little more study.

Revelation 21:4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

There will be no more death because there will be no more sin. By your usage of the term, if we can't choose to sin (because there is no sin), then there won't be "free will" in heaven. Our choices will be limited, therefore no free will

WRONG! The primary cause for the earth being in the condition it is in is God.

Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;

The secondary cause is our choosing to sin. You keep setting up a straw-man of Calvinism that says that we don't make choices. Every day man chooses to sin and reject God. We do not deny that. It is clear from the Bible and clear from life. I'll deal with the parables one at a time.

OK, let's take your illustration at face value. Your side can't answer your very question either. Why didn't God just create the earth without sin as he will the "New Earth?" Your answer would be that he doesn't want robots. My answer would just be that I don't know because the Bible doesn't say.

Again, the Bible doesn't say. And these types of questions don't prove one view against another anyway. Both of your illustrations come before the fall of man. We are not talking about before the fall, we are talking about the state of man NOW.

You emphasize the fact that they chose. I don't deny that. The angels chose because they were elect.

1 Timothy 5:21 I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels

People choose because they are elect as well.

1 Peter 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

Where is your Scripture to backup your claim that the "earth is nothing but a proving ground?" You are making a grand statement, but I don't see chapter and verse.

Nice parable. What, exactly, is this supposed to prove about "free will?" All I see is supernatural manipulation of people and events. God plants. The enemy plants. There's good seed and tares. The angels gather and the tares are burned. Tell me again where there is any hint of "free will" in this passage? BTW, this passage doesn't disprove "free will" either. It just doesn't say ANYTHING about it.

I'm not really sure what you mean by this last verse, or what it has to do with the world being harvested/destroyed or with "FREE WILL."

And again, I don't think you've ever read Calvin, so I doubt that I will get a good idea from you of what Calvin can or can't explain. And who cares WHAT Calvin can or can't explain? It's not about Calvin!!! It's about the Bible. You keep setting up this straw-man with what you think Calvin says, but have no idea. And it doesn't matter anyway.

I keep showing you that you are making huge assumptions in you interpretation of Scripture in order to ignore a biblical word like "election" or "predestination." And then you attribute the word "predestination" to Calvin.

 

JohmP
There is no gospel with that view but they do make an appeal to peoples ego alone.

Timtoolman:
And yet far more people reject the teachings of J. Calvin over the teachings of J. Christ.
And your second mistake in the same line (you do have foot in mouth for sure) is that the ego goes to the Calvinist who beats his chest and says I am saved but praise God the rest of you are bound for hell. On the otherhand the Biblicist loves not only others but his enemies and wishes for none of them to go to hell. It is not a pride issue, I am already saved. It is a love issue something that most Calvinist cannot comprehend. They love the knowledge or superiority of knowledge yet lack charity. And they are just as the Bible says. They are nothing.

Rest has been refuted over and over. Just thought I would address your new spin.

Tim

 

Calvibaptist..........

JOhnP: God is the Author of sin.

There you go. You two can hold hands all you want.

 

Yes there we go I am so glad that we have two honest calvinist about where the teacdhings of John Calvin lead. It is not just our misrepresentation after all.

Calvibaptist:
WRONG! The primary cause for the earth being in the condition it is in is God.

You have to believe that, (above) if you don't believe in free will. Except now you are saying God has free will, so free that He can go against His character and sin. Actually God does not have free will according to calvinist becasue there are things that God cannot do. That wich goes against His character or Word.

I have never met two people who have made it so easy to point out the foolishness in the teachings of calvin.

 

[/qb][/QUOTE]OK. For the Five Hundred and Fifteen Thousandth Time: Calvinists do not deny the very true Scriptures that say that you have to choose, believe, repent, etc. in order to be saved. We all believe that, which is one reason why I can say that I believe that Arminians are saved too. We also believe that people continually resist the Holy Spirit. That is obvious, since the Holy Spirit is convicting the world concerning sin, and yet the world still continues in sin.

But you ignore, over and over, the FACT that the Bible says, as I have quoted 4-5 times, that the natural man cannot choose correctly. They will always, no matter how many "whosoever wills" might be found in the Bible, choose (of their own free will) to reject God. Calvinists do not deny this fact either. We embrace the entire picture the Bible presents. You just want to ignore this part. It is not us ignoring, it is you.

You assume that because God says you must believe, that every person must have the "spiritual" ability to believe for God to be fair. That is an incorrect assumption. For God to be fair, we must all end up in hell, because we have already chosen (at least once) to reject Him. Once is all it takes. But God is gracious, not fair.

God gives plenty of commands that we have no ability to do, in and of ourselves. How about "Love the Lord your God will ALL your heart." We can't do that. There is a command that we cannot do without a special work of God in our lives. How about "Be perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect?" We can't do that. This is another command that we cannot do without a special work of God in our lives. That "special work" is the Holy Spirit taking out our heart of stone and giving us a heart of flesh (called regeneration, in theological circles). This is a promise of the New Covenant in Ezekiel.

Ezekiel 11:19-20 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh; 20 that they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Notice the word "that" in verse 20. Why does God put in a new spirit withing them? Why does God take out their stony heart and give them a heart of flesh? IN ORDER that they may walk in his statutes and keep His ordinances and do them and be His people and He can be their God. It is not the other way around.

You say God is no respector of persons. That's great, it is found in Romans 2 in the context of judgment according to works. When you can correctly interpret that section for me, then you can pull that verse out and throw it at me. One question, though. Did God choose Israel over the rest of the Gentiles throughout the OT? Think before you answer. (Also read Romans 9-11 again) [/qb][/QUOTE]


Calvibaptist, No one is argueing that it takes the work of the Holy Spirit for a christian to walk the walk. What I am saying is that when the Holy Spirit, not indwelling but comes over,convicts and guides to truth, God has allowed man to choose. (Again, Choose this day whom you will follow, christ or the gods of your land)Now the chooseing does not regenerate it is the Holy Spirit that does.He then indwells the believer so He can grow in spirit and obey God commandments. Now that is the pt we have been argueing. Total inability or not. You have not proved that. I gave you the Biblecal example of Adam and Eve and you have gave some off the wall excuses. Yet here are two, the first fallen, hearing and responding to the word of God. You have nothing. It all by itself so far (unless you can come up with at least a half way excuse of why this is, fallen able to understand and know who God is)you are done in my book. Or at least admitt there are some you cannot answer. There are some calvinist verses that I cannot answer (you have not hit them yet) but I will admitt I don't have all the answers. But until you can show me a little bit more study and willingness to take in account all of the Bible then I think you are pretty much through.

and Yes to the fact that God choose Isreal. Why is it I answer your questins and you ignore mine?!!! Like did others get saved outside of Isreal by believing in the God of Isreal....now you think! Its time you did your fair share. You have been doing nothiing but dodgeing great questins tthat I have thrown at you.

 

The only "restrictions" placed on Adam/Eve was not to eat of the tree of good/evil.

The only "CHOICE" that won't be there is a "CHOICE" they have already made in this world.

God doesn't tempt man with sin, so was it Eve/God, or Eve/Satan that caused the fall???

Did God "predestine" Adam/Eve to fall or was that a decision left to them, if it was "predestined" then why does God "BLAME" man for the fall, when actually man didn't have a choice, therefore it was "God's Fault"???

The "ANSWERS" are always in the Bible, just a matter of understanding it.

Man can't help his present state, however God loved the whole world and made it possible for as many to be redeemed through Jesus as were made sinner by Adam.

Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Calvin doctrine is a major obstacle to "reading comprehension".

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. (Satan)

Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: (PRIDE)

God doesn't create anything "less than perfect", so how did "Satan/Angel/man/vessels fit for destruction" become "unworthy", God's choice or their choice???

How can any be "ELECTED" to damnation if Jesus didn't come to condemn the world, died for all sins that the whole world "MIGHT BE" saved,

don't you "SEE" this "contradictions"???

Calvin denies God loves all sinners and made it possible that the whole world might be saved, making God a "respecter of presons among sinners".

Do you know the difference between "FOREKNOWLEDGE" and "PREDESTINATION"????

Understand the "Parables", you'll "SEE IT".

That's because you don't "SEE" how the "Wheat" was "transformed" into "TARES" or "HOW/WHY" the "TARES" can be "transformed" back into "WHEAT", worthy to be "planted" on a "NEW EARTH".

The scripture can't be understood unless you understand the "Parables".

Lu 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Why did God create this world to be harvested/burned,

"WHY" did God put the the "Tree of Life/Tree of good/evil in the garden and make it possible for Adam/Eve to obey him or satan???

And why are "WE" given a "CHOICE" to serve "WHOEVER" we chose???

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

And I keep showing you that Calvin's doctrine contradict everything the scripture teach, even accussing God of operating a "Kangaroo Court", issuing Judgments not based on the "LAW" and "guilt/innocents" of the "defendant" but "personal predilection" and "respect of persons".

As I've said before, Calvins doctrine is "Very Shallow" compared to understanding the "Deep things" of God.

 

I wonder why Calvin should say such a thing? Could it be anything to do with,

RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?


john. </font>[/QUOTE]Let's see if you can make your interpretation of the above verse fit into the stated "purpose" of God loving the whole world, Jesus not coming to condemn and dying for the sins of the whole world so the whole world "MIGHT BE SAVED",

Just where do those "ELECTED" to "DAMNATION" fit into the stated "PURPOSE/GOAL" of God/Jesus???

 

JohnP, I'd appreciate your take on this--and of course, any others who'd like to take a crack at it.

John 6:44,65 Jesus says that no one can come to Him unless the Father draw him. All do not come, so all are not drawn. Yet John 12:32, Jesus says "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men to me."

Resolve these passages, please.

Tom B