Dr. David Cloud and Way of Life Literature

[/QUOTE]Yes but we are to do it a manner of truthfulness. Cloud has accused men of things that are not true, both through failing to do research as well as by failing to study the issue enough to know the difference between new evangelicalism and fundamentalism. I can document cases of both. Furthermore, truth is to be defended in a spirit of gentleness and meekness, not in a spirit of arrogance and haughtiness. When Cloud refuses to meet or talk to people whom he has slandered who are responding to him in the spirit of Matthew 18, that is a problem. I know for a fact that Cloud refused to talk on the phone or meet with such a person. That is an unbiblical response.

I fully agree with many of cloud's positions. I take a firm stand in my church and in our neighborhood for the same positions. However, I detest the manner in which is does some of it and find it to be a serious flaw in him. Again, one must read him with great discernment and be careful not to adopt his spirit about things.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Could you please "document" as you said you could the cases of Dr. Cloud refusing to meet with certain people. I would like to check for the record. If you don't feel comfortable doing it here, please feel free to use my email address KJVDefender2002@BaptistMail.com I would like to verify these myself, as I find it hard to believe what you are telling us.

As far as the attitude Dr. Cloud sometimes presents, I too have felt at times he was a little too negative. But, one must take into mind several factors, speaking style, writing style, and is he honest in what he is trying to do? I've never met Dr. Cloud personally, but look forward to it one day. I've heard he is a very personable man and has a gracious spirit about him by almost everyone I know personally who have met him, and that is a considerable crowd. One cannot really judge totally how someone means something just by looking at it on printed paper, or on a computer monitor. I have NEVER known Dr. Cloud to intentionally misrepresent anything or to be dishonest.

AJL

Anthony J Lanius
I have my own opinion as to what makes christian music good or bad. I do not need any one "selling a book" to give me their opinion.

I will continue to enjoy my hymns, contemporary christian music, southern gospel, and any other music I think is appropiate. If you want to follow what someone else thinks and limit yourself to only a select type of music, be my guest. Back in my "super fundamental" days I agreed with what you say. Thank God, I now am free of such things.

If you feel, in your heart, that God is displeased with ccm then do not listen to it. Thus far, God has not convicted me of it and until He does I will not change.

My understanding is that many of what we call "hymns" today was originally written to, what was then, popular tunes. I have been told this and cannot confirm if it is true or not. Really, it does not matter to me.

I've made up my mind, don't confuse me with the facts.

Originally posted by Anthony J Lanius:
Could you please "document" as you said you could the cases of Dr. Cloud refusing to meet with certain people. I would like to check for the record. If you don't feel comfortable doing it here, please feel free to use my email address KJVDefender2002@BaptistMail.com I would like to verify these myself, as I find it hard to believe what you are telling us.

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One case dealt with Kevin Bauder where Cloud made some comments without knowing the truth. When confronted about the truth, he made only a partial retraction, admitting that he had failed to do enough research. Bauder is an out and out fundamentalist who Cloud slandered.

There also was an article dealing with the a church where a recent national FBF meeting was being held ... a militantly fundamental, separatistic church. Cloud slandered teh church and the pastor, even though the pastor wrote letters, made phone calls, and offered a personal visit to discuss the issues. Cloud would not take phone calls, would not take the visit, and refused to correct his misstatements and accusations in his little newsletter. I have copies of the correspondence that was carried on via email.

David Cloud's ministry has definitely been a great blessing for me, too. His work was very instrumental in my conversion to Christ and subsequent departure from the Roman Catholic Institution.

Though I have sometimes thought of his approach as "harsh," I have often found myself eventually seeing that he is correct. I am not always 100% in agreement with him, but I do find him getting the mark correct most of the time. Perhaps "bold" would be a much better way of describing his approach.

What I like best about Brother Cloud is even though he can come across full-throttle, he does freely (and even humbly!) admit that he himself is not perfect. He has retracted things that he said incorrectly, and has even confessed to his own weaknesses. For example, when he said that letting go of his love for rock music was one of the hardest things he ever did, I definitely related to that. I too have had the hardest time with this. And yet with prayer and the reading of God's Word, I have found the attraction to have dissipated completely.

Also, Brother Cloud helped me immensely with my views on Christmas. When I accepted Jesus, I did not know if I could ever celebrate Christmas again (and I really do love Christmas!), being that I was being told from some quarters that real Christians don't celebrate this "pagan" holiday. Brother Cloud's writings on the subject set me straight, and so I can now enjoy a simple approach to this holiday. As long as I keep it Christ-centered and am clear in my conscience before the Lord, then it is all right to celebrate.

And of course, as mentioned above, Brother Cloud's ministry helped me out of the Roman Catholic Institution. By his writings, I heeded God's Words, "Come out of her, my people."

To conclude, David Cloud's ministry has been an immense blessing to me in my Christian growth. I fully endorse him and ask God to always bless and prosper his ministry.

mozier

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Anthony J Lanius:

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One case dealt with Kevin Bauder where Cloud made some comments without knowing the truth. When confronted about the truth, he made only a partial retraction, admitting that he had failed to do enough research. Bauder is an out and out fundamentalist who Cloud slandered.

There also was an article dealing with the a church where a recent national FBF meeting was being held ... a militantly fundamental, separatistic church. Cloud slandered teh church and the pastor, even though the pastor wrote letters, made phone calls, and offered a personal visit to discuss the issues. Cloud would not take phone calls, would not take the visit, and refused to correct his misstatements and accusations in his little newsletter. I have copies of the correspondence that was carried on via email.[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]On your first case of Kevin Bauder, Dr. Cloud DID make the retraction. Full or not, he did make a retraction...and I haven't been able to find the evidence he made only a partial retraction.

On the second one, if you are talking about Pastor Bell in Virginia, I believe the former dean, whom I know personally as he was my professor at Maranatha, and Dr. Cloud DO know what they are talking about. I've never known Dr. Cloud NOT to take correspondence, phone calls, or meet in person when his schedule allows to try and get things right. Dr. Cloud has been misrepresented, maligned, and his ministry even attacked many times because some of the people he writes about don't like seeing their error exposed against what the Bible says. That's why his is a ministry of pointing out the apostasy in todays churches...and I have to say, I don't envy him on his calling. I have dealt with Dr. Cloud on several occasions by email, and he has ALWAYS been reputable, honest, pointing out what the Bible says, not "Thus saith Dr. Cloud". This is one reason he's earned my respect. He's human, and he makes his share of mistakes, but I've never known him to back down from apologizing and trying to make things right when he does. I thank the Lord for his ministry!

AJL

Originally posted by Anthony J Lanius:
On your first case of Kevin Bauder, Dr. Cloud DID make the retraction. Full or not, he did make a retraction...and I haven't been able to find the evidence he made only a partial retraction.

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The retraction I saw was half-hearted at best. It was, as I have said previously, a case where Cloud made a statement without knowing what he was talking about.

On the second one, if you are talking about Pastor Bell in Virginia,

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Nope ...

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
[The retraction I saw was half-hearted at best. It was, as I have said previously, a case where Cloud made a statement without knowing what he was talking about.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />On the second one, if you are talking about Pastor Bell in Virginia,

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Nope ...[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]In the first instance, from all of the sources I've talked to, Dr. Cloud set the record straight. I guess the success of the retraction is in the eye of the beholder. So, I will take that as just your opinion and inuendo. The same for the second accusation. You've given no concrete proof of anything, nor mentioned the person so that this "story" and for now it's nothing more than that, can be proven.

AJL

Originally posted by Anthony J Lanius:
In the first instance, from all of the sources I've talked to, Dr. Cloud set the record straight. I guess the success of the retraction is in the eye of the beholder. So, I will take that as just your opinion and inuendo.

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The strenght of the retraction was weak. I saw it with my own eyes in the weekly news and views or whatever he calls it. I didn't have to talk to anyone about it. I actually saw it. But you may have considered it stronger than I did, so you are right it is my opinion. "Inuendo" has nothing to do with it.

The same for the second accusation. You've given no concrete proof of anything, nor mentioned the person so that this "story" and for now it's nothing more than that, can be proven.

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so be it then. I am telling you that I have copies of the emails on my computer right now. The story was well publicized by Cloud prior to the meeting. I personally know the man involved, I saw the charges made both in public and in private. It has been proven. It is not a matter of opinion that Cloud made false statements, refused to correct them, and refused to talk or meet with the person in question. That is a matter of fact. But do with it what you will.

My opinion of Cloud was set long before that when I saw the shallowness of some of his writing particularly on new-evangelicalism. While I am a fundamentalist without apology, Cloud calls everyone who disagrees with him a new-evangelical and that is incorrect. While he seems a reasonably intelligent man, he seems uninformed or undiscerning at least about what constitutes fundamentalism and new evangelicalism. Recently he insinuated that churches that sing songs off of screens in the front are new-evangelical. He didn't offer any proof of that from Scripture. And some of his stuff is like that.

Cloud writes much that is good stuff that I wholeheartedly agree with. However, it is not our similarities that is at issue. It is our differences. This simply needs to be made known.

I also read about song screens somewhere on his site. I could not take him seriously after reading this.

Yankeefan - I'm rather amazed that anyone takes him seriously at all in anything.

Joshua

I'm glad, that as a brand new Christian, I was discipled by Brother Cloud, and not some bible hating liberal.