Mothers,wives, and priorities

originally posted by Molly: I'm not seeing the change of priorities as God's call on her life as a women.

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It changes the story a great deal, Molly. Ruth was there in Bethlehem because she made Naomi her priority. Naomi, Ruth and Oprah had all been widowed and Naomi URGED them to return to Moab because as long as the two daughters-in-law remained in Israel, they would have no hope of remarriage or bearing children. Oprah left but Ruth clung to Naomi, knowing that she would have to support the older lady. Her first priority was to her home and it was necessary that she work to support it. This is all right there in chapter one of Ruth and is the entire basis of the plot of the story.

It's very irritating to me that as long as the altering of a verse or story supports one's premise, it's "okay" with everyone who supports the same premise. The other verses mentioned have been disputed in other threads. If you need, I'll cut and paste the rebuttals.

At least headcovered lady is consistent in saying that women should not have any role in the church that involves leadership, including leading a hymn. But even she is not acknowledging 1Timothy 2:11, "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission," and before anyone says that has to do with church, please find the word "church" in that passage. This was a cultural issue for the time and addressed to Timothy while at the church at Corinth. Greek women were supressed not by Christianity, but rather by the ancient Greek culture.

Further, the Old Testament story of Ruth is NOT a contradiction to the New Testament instructions of Paul. 1 Timothy 5:16, "If any woman who is a believer has widows in her family, she should help them and not let the church be burdened with them, so that the church can help those widows who are really in need." Again, if this "help' mentioned here is not financial, then what, pray tell is it and where in this passage does it say "unmarried woman"? Where is the woman supposed to come up with the money?

I am going to look for a comprehensive list of Biblical women and we'll see how many of them had listed occupations. There has to be one somewhere. I guarantee you that if there is no job listed, they still had to work. People are so spoiled today. I will say again, it is a modern notion that women do not have to work to survive.

I read the MacArthur sermon. Did you read the scripture I cited? Which should take precedent?

[ May 02, 2002, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]

By the way, here's a quote from one of the MacArthur sermons that you cited, Molly.

In other words, there's no happy medium. If you take the thing off you might as well go the whole way and shave your head because you have done as much as protest the purposes of God. God accepts the fact that that culture had certain ways to identify women. They were covered and they had long hair. And that was the sign of their femininity. When they wanted to protest that, they threw off the veil and shaved the head. He says if you're going to throw off your covering, you might as well then go ahead and shave your head and join the prostitutes and the protestors. So he says to the Christian women, you can't do that, your culture has an understanding of the distinction between men and women, that is a divine distinction though the particular custom is not ordained by God, the distinction is. And in whatever way your society maintains that distinction, you be sure you hold it up lest they conclude that you are fighting against that. And if you take off your covering they will conclude that, you might as well shave your head and join the march. Take off your shirt and like the bare breasted pig stickers that we talked about last time, run through town stabbing pigs to prove your macho femininity.

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http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/1944.HTM

I understand and agree with his sermon that you have qouted and also in part 2 I agree with his statements and exposition of the role of a woman. did you read part 2,did you disagree?

I love the book of Ruth and have always enjoyed reading it,but I have never seen it as a place in the Bible where it teaches the roles of men and women...it points to Christ as our kinsman redeemer,and it shows the providence of God. I love that! In Titus 2,Paul teaches the biblical roles of women,that is where God gave us the info on how to live,so that the Word of God would not be dishonored.

And,yes,I agree,Clint,we are a spoiled people. I realize we have it easier in life that those who came before...even for men,I mean,look around,there are so many conveniences here in the US and it makes our lives easier,I don't know if better is right,although I am very thankful for all God has done in the area of medicine and such to care for and promote life. I do see that we have it easier,and I for one,am spoiled. But,on the other hand,I see soooo many distractions,sinful temptations,idelness,idolatry and such stealing our true identity in Christ....I see that in our world of conveneince,finanial gain,and independence from God,we have been(as a culture) drawn away from God and the family. I want to make a difference...I want to live in a way that sets me apart...in EVERY area. When someone asks me a question why do you do what you do,I want to give a testimony to Christ who gave his life for me....I want to be able to say,The Word of God says...and let people know that I am serious about the things of God...I do not take them lightly. Millions of women work and leave their children with others....I can not change that,but I can live the way that I see best,in God's eyes from what I learn from scripture. Do I sit around and judge the women who are not doing this,no...mainly because their home is their job,not mine(I can only handle one,and not always so good at that one)...her home is to be HER domain,I can not tell her what choices she has to make...the Bible teaches that those things are to be the priorities,if she feels she can work and still have those priorities,than that is her life. I can only state what God has done in me. I can try to be an exhorter of Truth.

I am not doubting the spirituality or salvation of anyone. I never want to go down that road...I have never questioned anyone's relationship with Christ. We are all different and God teaches us at different times for different seasons of life...this is where we(our family) are,Clint. That is the only explanation I can give you. God has brought us to this point. Like I've said beofre,I give Him all credit for allwing my life to be what it is.

The first Timothy passage you mentioned is in reference to the church. Paul is writing to Timothy about the church in Ephesus,so they would not how to conduct themselves in the household of God.(1Timothy 3:15) Remembering that the church is the people of God and women are to handle themselves a certain way with the church...vs 11-15,expresses those concerns from Paul. It is speaking to her realtionship to her husband and others in the church. They are to be the learners,not teachers in public worship.

I guess that is what you were asking about.

It's a myth that women who work outside the home don't have time to cook form scratch or have a messy, chaotic house, just as it's a myth that stay-at-home moms are lazy.

I usually cook from scratch. With a little planning, its very easy to sit down with the family, every night, and eat a home cooked meal. I am also active in our community and serve on a couple of Boards. This becomes a night for the crock pot, or my husband or daughter will fix dinner. He's a great cook and Jill has learned how to put a few meals together. Everyone pitches in for the betterment of our family.

Even though we work equally in and out of the house, my husband is definately the spiritual head of the house, and I defer to his judgement and decisions when I am not sure or disagree.

~Holly

Holly,I have a 10 year old daughter and I am letting her cook some,too. By the end of fifth grade we want her to home cook an entire meal,with no instruction from me...dessert and everything. She is looking forward to it...I'm not sure I am!! Ha!

originally posted by Molly: did you read part 2,did you disagree?

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God's standard is for the wife and mother to work inside the home and not outside. For a mother to get a job outside the home in order to send her children even to a Christian school is to misunderstand her husband's role as a provider, as well as her own duty to the family.

I vehemently disagree with this statement. It would read better if it said, "For a mother to get a job outside the home in order to send her children even to a Christian school is to misunderstand what I say isher husband's role as a provider, as well as her own duty to the family."

Just as Hollyberry stated above, my wife's work has no affect on her submission to me nor to her femininity.

You have a right to disagree. I agree with John Mac's teachings and believe he is and has been what our world needs to hear. God has given him to us for such a time as this. I respect his godly biblical teachings and respect his commitment to the Word. I line everything he syas up with scripture,though. We have to do that. Scripture is the plumbline. I guess you agree only with who supports what you think about scripture. Ive learned quite a few things in my life,I have been wrong about many things,but I am reproved and corrected and learn as I go. I want to be teachable and humble if I am wrong. So I will continue studying,if I am wrong on something,God will and can correct me. I want to be very open to that.

Molly,
That is wonderful that you are teaching your daughter how to cook. I am doing the same thing. I am allowing her to be a part of all of the homemaking tasks, which are many. I even let me my very young daughter, who is under two work too. She wants to because she sees us and older sister working.
One day I asked her if she wanted to do dishes thinking she would say no. Well, a few minutes later she had pulled the chair out, moved it to the kitchen sink and was waiting there for me to begin to dishes. Now, we all know that a child of this age does make more of a mess than help. But, I believe it encourages them to help and to want to. It worked with my older one, who actually can do quite a few homemaking tasks.
I was not trained as a youngster how to be a homemaker. I was only taught how to work outside of the home. So, I am still struggling to get it all together. I worked the first few years of my marriage too, so I did not learn then.
I have been home for a few years now and I am almost good at it. But, I know I can do better to make my home a pleasant and beautiful place for the occupants of the home. Isn't that such a lovely service for the Lord? I used to think I had to have outside ministries to glorify the Lord. Then I realized I have a few people in my own home to whom I am to minister to.
One being my husband. I like to run errands for him and help him in any way I can. So that he can concentrate on his job and be the best he can be at it. I also love training my children for the Lord. What a blessing to see them pray and know the Word. I look forward to that day in eternity when I can see them there.
And what a blessing to be able to offer to a friend some frsh cooked bread or a drink of tea when they are weary from their travels.

HCL

Well,I am trying to teach her and she has great desire for those kinds of things,which is nice....when a button falls off,I take it to her to fix. I,on the other hand,am still learning things that I need to know to be busy at home. I did not learn much growing up either,not because I wasn't taught,I wasn't interested...I was pretty tomboyish and outdoorsy. I loved to run,climb trees,swim,etc.(I still do) I see,now I should've been more interested! My mother is a wonderful cook and she encouraged me to learn those things,and I did learn some,but I'm having to learn a lot now,with children of my own. Esp girls who need to be equipped to be wives and mothers one day. We have fun together,but I'm a very neat person,so when they are in the kitchen with me,I try to be VERY flexible and not so neat about everything....I have to work on that.

My greatest love is teaching the girls God's Word. I've have felt such an urgency in doing that lately. God has really impressed upon me..."the time is now",don't get me wrong,my husband and I have always been comitted to teaching them,but we are taking it a step further and going deeper with it,I guess mainly because of their ages and their great enthusiam for the things of God....I love to teach them and can not wait until next year when we will probably be homeschooling. I consider that a great privilege to have the luxury and desire to do that!

This is a much hotter topic than I ever would’ve believed it could be!
While I have always been a stay-at-home mom, a position I must admit, that myself and my husband chose. If I had wanted to work outside of the home, my husband would’ve supported me in that decision also.
From what I’m hearing thru this discussion, the stay-at-home mom/wife side believes that all women, should be stay-at-home mothers and wives, and to do otherwise, is going against God’s will in their lives. And by doing this, they in turn bring more hardship to their own children, husband and home? Is this correct? No if’s, and’s or but’s….a straight cut.

Maybe…what I’m going to say has nothing to do with working moms outside or inside of the home. But, I could give you a list of all the stay-at-home mom’s that was always there for her family, cooked from scratch, kept her home spotless, taught and brought up her children in a God centered atmosphere from birth until they became adults in the real world. Doing what all you moms are doing now for your own children because in their hearts they believed it to best, and they didn’t want their priorities to become blurred or undefined. I am one of these moms! There is no way a parent, raising children in this manner, can prevent her child from doing the exact opposite of what they have been taught. I know this from not only my own experience but from numerous other stay-at-home moms as well. And on the other hand, I can also call to memory many moms that worked outside of home, taught their children in a God centered environment, their homes were clean, and they always tried to be with their children for important dates, they may have not been there for all but most. The list is just as long that their children stayed the course, so to speak, and never brought heartache to their parents.
Proverbs 22
6Train up a child in the way he should go,
And when he is old he will not depart from it.

I have a problem with the thought, that now, that my own children are grown and on their own, and I could still bare children, that is what I should do instead of finding a part time job outside of the home. My husband would have a huge problem with starting another family at the age of 43! On the other hand, he honestly wouldn’t mind a bit if I wanted a part time job or a full time job. My husband would also have a problem with ever having to depend on our children to support me in the event of his death; he has made sure that I should never need to work, if or when that happens.

I just don’t believe this is a cut and dry subject, there are certain subjects in God’s Word that are cut and dry but this isn’t one of them. If all women should be doing the same in the way they keep a home, then why didn’t all the women in the Bible keep their homes the same? I don’t believe working outside of the home or staying at home, is a commandment or rule. The actual rule being…the care of your husband, children, and home. If there are those that are incapable of working outside of home and keeping a home, by all means, stay at home. But to judge other women by your own concept or compared to what you do in your own home, well…that’s just wrong. The only time we as Christians should be getting upset pertaining to children, is when they are being abused or being neglected, but even then I don’t think we do anything about it.
Sue

Sue,
You are right to say that some children who come from families where the mom's worked tourn out fine. I was one of them. God gives His grace.
For me though it was a bit different as my parents were not born again. They still are not. But God in His grace saved me.

Molly,
I agree with you completely and I have this same conviction. With much of the church in it's apostate state we must give to our children the Word of God. I have seen over the past few years that there is a move of the Holy Spirit over families in this area. The father's hearts are turning to their children and the mommies are turning their hearts towards their families.
I have spoke to women all across America, via the net who have experienced this move of the Spirit. They are from many different denominations. To me it seems the Lord is prepraring something. He is doing something and it is so exciting to be a part of it.
Just this morning in our Bible class we were studying the difference between the wicked woman in Proverbs 7 and the virtuos woman of Prov 31. The wicked woman in Prov 7 was more of a threat to the young men who lacked in God's wisdom, (the Word) but it served as a great warning, not only to me but to my children that we are not to like the wicked woman in that verse.
These are just some of the blessings I have experienced today with my children.

HCL

Sue,

I have not said all women must stay at home and only work there,I am saying the priorities of a women are to be the home...whther or not she works is her decision,but it should never interfere with the God given priorities of the home.

I agree,we have no guarantees how our children will live once grown or even as young adults or teenagers...noone knows how all that will turn out and that can not be a judge of a good parent either...We have to parent the best way we can and trust God for the rest. I have to parent and mother as biblically as I can,that is the judge for good parenting,not how the child turns out. There have been godly parents that have disobedient children and are rebellious adults later in life...there are parents who are totally ungodly,sinful,and wordly who have children be saved and live godly,we just don't always understand God's plans...but,the Bible teaches me to do what is in scripture and that is how I will parent. I can't worry about the outcome. I have to live in faith.

Molly, you and others on this thread have stated several times, it is better or it is the best, to be a stay-at-home mom, to not work outside of the home, that a job would interfere with your devotion to your family. Maybe you don't mean to imply such things, so you then go to the Bible and certain passages to hold up your theory. But I believe you have to take the entire Bible, not just a few verses here and there, as Clint has also tried to show you. You've also agreed that we are a very spoiled nation and people, especially here in America. I totally agree on that point.
The women of the Bible, if they were caring for their children and husbands, were having to leave home to do so and would also have to leave the children with a servant, older children, neighbors or just alone. There was no indoor plumbing, carrying water just for cooking was a huge chore. Most would have to go to a body of water, river, lake or the likes, just wash the clothes, you don't take little ones to do such things, how could you keep an eye on your small children and wash, and do either very well. What about the fields, the women would work very long hours in the fields, if they weren't owned by their husbands, then they received payment from the land owner. If they took goods to the market to trade or barter, they could not take their children. Imagine yourself at a very busy amusement park, people everywhere, and trying to sell your wares and keeping an eye on your children too. It wasn't that long ago that women were still doing this sort of thing, my own mother included, my grandmother and great-grandmother. It's true that it wasn't considered working outside of the home then or apparently now, but surely you can see how ridiculous it is to believe those women stayed with their children 24/7 while they were tending to their families needs? It seems to me that we have more women today complaining how busy they are and have no time for anything, working and non-working. In all honesty, if I had to walk one day in my grandmothers shoes, well...it wouldn't be at all easy, nor would I want to jump up the next morning and do it all over again. My mother didn't have a washer and dryer when I was a child, she had a wringer washer, it was outside in the wash house and she would hang our clothes on an outside line, she still had it better than her mother. She milked cows, churned butter and had a garden (one acre) and canned all our vegetables. I'm really sorry, but I find it absurd that we can compare what we do at home, to what women once had to do to keep a home. What woman could put on heels, drive to her work place, work for 8 hours and then go home and do all those chores? None! Today our chores are the same, but a lot less time consuming and trouble free. And cooking from scratch...does this mean beef, chicken or pork from your own cattle, chickens or pigs, vegetables from your own gardens or fruit from you own orchards?
Sue

Hi Sue,
The Word of God teaches that a woman is to be a keeper of the home. We cannot be a keeper of the home if we are not there.
Now as far as taking small children along, I was just outside putting seeds in the ground with my almost two year old. She had a child's rake and she absolutely loved putting her little hands into the bag of seed and spreading it in the dirt. I do these things often with my children, for a few reasons. One being I am their keeper, that is the job God gave me. Two being, this is where they are discipled and learn about real life. Now, I do not have to go to a well, but truthfully I do go out someonewhere to get my water and my children are right with me.
I lived in Spain for a few years. Now, Spain is not a third world country, some might call it second world. They are a bit behind in some areas and the woman are just now leaving the homes. But, they are not into the day care thing as of yet, although it is growing.
We would observe Spanish men and women with their children at their late night evening dinners, selling things at the gypsy market and at their places of business.
I imagine 20 years ago there women would have their children with them much of the time. My grandmother worked alot too when she was very young. They made bricks and pressed wine. She remembers always being with her parents and contributing to the work that was done there at their farm.

HCL

OOps, I wanted to add one more thing about Spain. In Spain most of the restaurants are outside and do you know that almost every single one has a playground there. We loved this part. We could take our children or go with the church and enjoy the day and the children would be able to enjoy themselves. It was very child friendly, they expected parents to have their children with them when they went out to eat. This was one of the most beautiful parts of Spain. In general they are a culture that cherishes their children very, very much.

HCL

Sue,
I just keep forgetting more and more as I get older. I also wanted to add that my home is the lowest of priorities, so I do not have the Martha Stewart collection type home. But, I do try my best to keep it clean and smeling nice for the occupants.
I can't keep it as clean as I want because I have other priorities. My first being my relationship with Jesus Christ and reading His Word, second serving my husband, third caring for my children and training them in God's Word and ensuring they have godly character, teaching my children life skills, teaching my children reading, writing, etc, cooking, laundry, dishes, shopping, then comes cleaning in my list of priorites. I also try to make myself available for Jesus when He wants me to minister to someone or witness. Like recently I had a four woman audience in the grocery story to share about Jesus and the little girl next door who has an absent father. She asks me questions about God and what He made and how I know. Then there might be things like new moms who need dinners, bereaved family members or sick people who need a care package.
After that honestly I do not have much time.

HCL

I'm 56 years old and when I was growing up my mother never worked and doesn't now. My Dad was the breadwinner in our home. I know there is an on going discussion on this topic of working mothers outside the home. This is to ask the question of all of you as a measure of the times and how things change. I'm not interested in whether you are a stay at home mother or work outside the home. Did your mother work outside the home or was she a homemaker?... Brother Glen

Brother Glen -

Mother - Baptist - worked for the US Postal Service for 25 years, worked as a waitress before that, married at 16, three children, 12 years between my siter and me

Paternal Grandmother - Baptist - worked as a seamstress for the local military school, widowed when pregnant with my father, her only child

Maternal Grandmother - Baptist - worked in a textile plant, mother of 9 children



[ May 02, 2002, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]

Glen:

My Mother - Corporate Vice President in the healthcare industry

Paternal Grandmother - Bookkeeper and Vice President of a silk-screening company (worked in various places while my Grandfather was on active duty)

Maternal Grandmother - homemaker

I have no doubt that my comfort with strong, professional career women comes - in part - from the examples of my mother and grandmother

Joshua