News: Falwell's remarks blamed for riot

Helen,

Amen sister!

 

Helen you go girl.
Murph

 

Helen, too bad someone with your interpretation wasn't around to explain that to the ignorant early Church and too bad the small handful of Militant Muslims won't listen to that today because of their situation.

I guess you missed my whole point I was going for. I was arguing from the early church's point of view. This way we can see what kind of mindset they had. Why they did what they did.

The same small number of Christian radicals (KKK, Irish terrorist etc) willing to kill others are most likely in the same ratio as with the Muslim religion today. We wouldn't want Muslims and Atheist Countries like China etc. to think that all Christians are represented by these extremist groups. If they thought we were, we would hear words coming from them like, "Jesus taught violence to get his way, etc" That is an attack on ALL CHRISTIANS not just the militant ones. Jerry did the same thing to the Muslim. He brought up something that is irrelevent to the problem at hand. An attack against our Muslim friends based on a few wacko's.

If we expect the mainstream Mulsim community to stand with us against terrorism, we don't do it by CALLING THEM THE ENEMY. And they are standing in many cases stronger against this than most of us.

We don't fault Christianity for the millions our Church leaders have murdered in the past. We don't fault God for his orders to early Bible leaders to kill the infidel. So let's not fault Islam for their weak links.

Wisdom is sometimes knowing something as fact and since it is irrelevant, leaving it out of the argument.

[ October 14, 2002, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

Post-it,

I understand how you are arguing. I don't understand why you are arguing it. The point is not pertinent in the context of the discussion topic at hand. We are talking about a group of Muslims and a group from the Hindu religion, a riot involving the two groups, and a lame attampt to blame Jerry Falwell for the riot. The biggest clue there is that the riot did not involve Christians. Those involved in the riot cannot say, "I was mad at Falwell's comments so I threw a rock at the head of that Hindu guy over there." That makes no sense. It is a non sequitur based on the informal fallacy of false cause.

I would not place members of the KKK and Irish terorists in the Christian camp. They may well be from Christianized nations; however, those terrorists (both groups) are not Christians. I can make that claim because they do not follow Christ's Great Commandment found in Mark 12:29-31. The problem with the second part of your statement quoted above it that Jesus never taught violence. Never. However, Mohammad did teach violence and the Quran teaches violence, "The infidel shall die by the sword." The Quran says, "Fighting is prescribed upon you, and you dislike it. But it is possible that you a thing which is good for you, and that you love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows and you know not.... Tumult and oppression are worse than Slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you ack from your faith if they can" (surah 2:216-17). Likewise, the Quran states, "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them, in every stratagem of war" (surah 9:5). No one can pick up a Bible and point to similar words from Christ.

I would like to see you document and quntify that second sentence. Please don't just repeat stuff that you have heard expressed by those who support Islam in the media. Check it out and you will find very few Muslim governments actively working to bring Islamic terrorists to justice, or stop them before they act.

I don't know about you, but I will be the first to say that "Christians" who murdered and killed, throughout church history, to support a false doctrine were wrong and not following the commands of Christ. You cannot call God into question because in His righteousness and Holiness he judged the pagan peoples of Canaan and used His chosen people, Israel, to carry out that judgment. However, it is appropriate to question the actions of Mohammad and his followers for acting on the instructions of a man and a false religion.

Follow your own advice here.

 

And that is the same Claim made by mainstream Islam against those radical terrorists.

Are you sure? Being that Christ is God, unlike Muhammad, then we can say for sure Christ/God ordered violence and death on many people and countries, just read the OT for details.

Suffer not a witch to live, stone homosexuals and non-believers to death, I will send a flood and kill all of mankind execpt a few people, need I go on.

India is a big one where both the government and the people are anti-terrorism. The "people" in most Muslim countries are not given to the same political games their leaders are playing. So the vast majority in every Muslim run country is opposed to terrorism.

[ October 14, 2002, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

Yes, that is (sort of) what the Bible says, and, yes, that is what I’ve seen (many) others say about what the Qur’an says but here’s my problem with comparisons like that. Who authored the books?
Jehovah God wrote those Bible passages through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit from the hand of Moses (as I understand it). Jehovah God started to tell all the children of Israel His law, all at the same time, but THEY told Moses that they couldn’t stand it, please have God just tell you and then you tell us. Throughout the centuries, God rose up prophets to tell the people His Words. We have the records of the prophets, we know what God told the people through them. Since their prophecies have come true, we know that God actually spoke through them.
A few other times, God made His voice heard when He said, “This is my Son with whom I am well pleased”.
With Muhammed and Islam, we don’t have the same evidences. We have one man’s word that he received revelation, from an angel nonetheless, over a period of (40?) years. Same with Joseph Smith. Question, who can appear as an angel of light?
We don’t know about the word that Muhammed received. We have no fulfilled prophecy to prove that his words were from God. Even the words that he gave us about (his) god do not describe Jehovah God, the One True God of all.
How can any comparison of verses like those be made? It is my belief that God did not send an angel to Muhammed, satan did. It is also my firm conviction that God is sovereign over all His creation and if He tells us to do certain things, then we better do ‘em. Yes... all of ‘em... And if we don’t do all of ‘em, we are under grace. If we don’t stone people today, like they do in some Islamic countries for the offense of adultery, it is because we have been forgiven of our own sins. We know that there is One who will judge. We pray for the lost. We witness the hope that is in us.
Jehovah God wrote the words of the Bible. Satan wrote the words of the Qur’an. You cannot compare the two.
It would seem that you are here (mostly) to accuse the bretheren.
Why?

 

JamesJ, no one here is claiming that Mohammad is a prophet or anything else. That isn't at issue here. I think we all agree with you on those views.

 

I'm not accusing the bretheren, I'm stating that Jerry Falwell lacked wisdom in making remarks that didn't contribute anything useful to either side. In fact, he is launching a religious war when there need not be any. There is nothing wrong in pointing a finger and telling Brother Falwell he is out of place and to keep quite. Either lead or get out of the way.

His leading is for the purpose of a religious war, is that what you want?

 

I'm assuming that this remark was not intended for me.

I seriously disagree with you. He is not inciting any religious war. The war has been on since the words, "Yea, hath God said..." were uttered.
I don't fear war. It IS going to come, whether in our lifetimes or later I don't know but it will come. I pray for the day that His Kingdom comes to put an end to all this strife.

...Taking a firm stand FOR the gospel of Christ over all other ways, witnessing boldly in the LOVE of Christ to the lost.

 

Amen, BibleboyII!

Westerners, Christians included, are really being naive or like ostrich heads in the sand of ignorant bliss.

All one has to do is see how Christians are treated in the majority of Muslim countries. And the way Muslims are flowing into the U.S., both legally and illegally, it can happen here someday. Don't be fooled.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=32;t=000582

I don't buy the "moderate Muslim" scenario. With the exception of countries you can count on one hand (like maybe Turkey), there are only "moderate" Muslims when they are in the minority. And sometimes not even then.

http://www.persecution.org

You can tell where evil is by looking at the victims. Like in Sudan. Or Sierra Leone. Or any number of countries where Christians are persecuted, tortured, murdered, raped by Muslim tormenters with AK-47s. How would you fare being stuffed in a rubber tire, doused with gasoline & set on fire? Think you would renounce Jesus and embrach Allah? Think it can't happen in America?

Call Jerry & me bigots. The truth is what sets people free.

Jerry Falwell has to stand before Almighty God some day and give an account of whether or not he was a watchman, was faithful, & told the truth. He doesn't have to stand before the court of popular opinion or political correctness or man's ideology. And it certainly won't be before Sodom (yeah, I know) or any imams or mullahs. And it won't be before Muhammad, either.

[ October 14, 2002, 09:37 PM: Message edited by: SheEagle911 ]

 

Amen, SheEagle911 !

Huss said, "What I have proclaimed with my mouth, I now seal with my blood". Others have gone the same way praising Jesus to the very last.

Why do we think that today we are any different?

 

I thought that Jesus came not to give peace but to give division (Luke 12:49-53 Matthew 25:33).
He said it, not me. How is it that now we say that all other ways must "affirmed"?
If the Sovereign Lord of all creation said that He came to bring division, and that we are to witness in love about Him to the lost, then why are even talking about doing something else?

 

post it do you not feel that the 10% you have credited Falwell with is out of line?
Murph

 

I have "Christ Glorious Achievments" by Spurgeon
that tells what Mahomet's method of evangelism was about. His main tool was the scimitar. After
100 plus years,things haven't changed. So now I must condemn Spurgeon for his lack of wisdom and tolerance. How silly of him to say such nasty things about a misunderstood group of murderers and terrorist.

 

I think you are confusing spiritual war with human wars.

There are millions of Muslims in this country, I don't see you with a gun, I will assume you are talking about "leaders" who MAY bring a war in the future against all of Christianity. Sorry, but that ship sailed, 99.x% would not support such a war. It is a few leaders pushing their masses they control into terrorist actions, not the Muslim people.

 

I hope you aren't denying that Jesus was 100% man also. It sounds like you are. And second, I was making an example of how Falwell should have spoke... with mutual respect for each religion's leader figure, and not addressing who is what, and what a Fake the other is, when you know the other side is going to close their minds to anything that follows.

So you agree with me that Falwell found the division with that statement and not the Love?

 

Since no one denied that Jesus (as God) did similar acts of violence and dictated the killing of the enemy by his people, do we all agree that Falwell had no business saying those remarks?