The church didn't NOT start on Pentecost

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas Cassidy:
False foundational assumption. There is no such thing, today, as "spirit baptism." It was a one time event, on the day of Pentecost, when Christ immersed the church at Jerusalem into the Holy Spirit, never to be repeated.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So what do you make of the following verses? Acts 8:5-24, 9:17-19, 10:43-48, 19:1-7? What about Peter's words after the "one time" event you speak of?


Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."



I too have never heard anyone make this claim about the Holy Spirit Baptism. I would like to hear more of how you came to this conclusion.

~Lorelei

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lorelei:
So what do you make of the following verses? Acts 8:5-24, 9:17-19, 10:43-48, 19:1-7? What about Peter's words after the "one time" event you speak of?


Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I believe every one of those verses. However, none of them mention a baptism in/of/with the Holy Spirit. All that Acts 2:38 says is that new converts receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, not a baptism in/of/with Him.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas Cassidy:
I believe every one of those verses. However, none of them mention a baptism in/of/with the Holy Spirit. All that Acts 2:38 says is that new converts receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, not a baptism in/of/with Him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It didn't actually call it a "baptism" in Acts 2:4 ("And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost") either, but we know that is what it was called because of what Jesus stated in Chapter 1:5 "For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence".

As for none of those accounts calling them the baptism of the Holy Ghost, what about Peter's explanation of what happened in Acts 10?


Acts 11:15
"And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16
Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17
Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?"


~Lorelei

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lorelei:
"For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, and it is a lot more than "not many days hence" now, isn't it? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As for none of those accounts calling them the baptism of the Holy Ghost, what about Peter's explanation of what happened in Acts 10?Acts 11:15 "And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, they did receive the same gift, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which, at that time, was evidenced by the sign gifts. But It was not a "baptism" as on the day of Pentecost, but an indwelling. Was there the sound of a mighty rushing wind? Were there tongues of fire over their heads? No? Something different?

 

In Matt 16:13-20, Christ established the church under His authority. He called it “My church,” emphasizing that He alone is its Architect, Builder, Owner, and Lord. The Gr. word for church means “called out ones.” While God had since the beginning of redemptive history been gathering the redeemed by grace, the unique church He promised to build began at Pentecost with the coming of the Holy Spirit, by whom the Lord baptized believers into His body—which is the church.

To understand this, one needs to understand the significance of two of the three Jewish festivals. Passover commemorated deliverance from Egyptian bondage. Jesus was crucified during the Passover event and was referred to by Paul in 1 Cor 5:7 as the “Passover lamb.” The blood of this Lamb of God causes God to “pass over” the sins of all who believe in the power of His shed blood. Pentecost or Feast of Harvest was celebrated 50 days after Passover (as required) and required a “first fruits” offering (“The priest will lift up these offerings before the LORD, together with the loaves representing the first of your later crops. Lev. 23:20). 50 days after Jesus’ resurrection, the Holy Spirit came on this day as the firstfruits of the believer’s inheritance (God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit. 2 Cor. 5:5; The Spirit is God’s guarantee that he will give us everything he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. Eph. 1:14). Those gathered into the church then were also the firstfruits of the full harvest of all believers to come after.

[ August 30, 2001: Message edited by: wellsjs ]

 

Great thread! I have had a very busy week, I just read this thread. I agree with
Pastor Larry and Lorelei You are doing a great job!

Pastor Larry you said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Loralei, The OT believers were indwelt and regenerated by the Spirit. There is no other way to account for salvation and godly living. The major NT difference in the work of the Spirit is Spirit baptism which is non-experiential.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would question this. I think Loralei is right. The Spirit of God did indwell the
Saints of the OT, but not permanently. They could lose that indwelling. They could not lose their salvation but the indwelling. David said:

Ps 51:11
Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
NKJV

And Jesus said:

John 7:39
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to
that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
NIV

While it is true that the baptism of the Spirit today is distinct from anything ever
happening in the OT, so is the sealing and indwelling permanently of the Sprit of God.

Thomas Cassidy, the Church is not an organization it is an organism. A living Body of Believers who have been baptized by the Sprit of God and placed in Christ. This did happen more than once in the Acts, 2 - 10 - 19. The body of Christ is made up of the Samaritans, Jews, and Gentiles. And as Larry pointed out Matthew 10 leaves no room for anyone but the Jews. (yes that is in the book of Matthew found in the OT

Consider these passages as well:
Rom 6:2-6
Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized
into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
NKJV
Gal 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
KJV

This baptism could be only the Spirit Baptism not just water baptism.

With love,

Chet




[ August 31, 2001: Message edited by: Chet ]

 

OK…. I shouldn’t have so much faith in my spell checker. HA HA HA!

In this discussion, some are asserting that the Church began on Pentecost and others are asserting that the Church was up and running in the first chapter of Mark.

My questions still stand.

1) What about John 20:21-22
Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: (Almost fifty days before Pentecost)

What's that all about? If you have an opinion on whether or not the Church "received" the HG on Pentecost, you should have an opinion on John 20:22


Thomas Cassidy said " (Someone on this board even said recently that the gospels should be read as being OT!) But Mark 1:1-4 says NT gospel preaching began with John the Baptist!"

Could you please enlighten me? I seem to be misunderstanding the following verse.

Hebrews 9:14-17
….And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

I'm thinking that the NT began after Jesus died, what am I missing?

2) If the church/NT was before the cross, we have to answer questions about Jesus telling a man to offer a sacrifice.

Mark 1:44
And saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing those things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.


And we have to answer questions about the Church being shut up to the Gentiles

Matthew 10:5
These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Did the Church go threw a time where they were still under the Law and a time where the Gentiles were not invited and considered as dogs?

That’s spooky theology

Wellsjs, I'm glad that you brought up the festivals. I'm a little confused by something you said.

" Pentecost or Feast of Harvest was celebrated 50 days after Passover (as required) and required a “first fruits” offering"

I'm thinking that Passover was on the evening of the 14th (the 14th being the day Jesus hung on the cross and Passover, the 15th day, beginning just after Jesus was buried) and from the 15th to the 22nd being the feast of Unleavened Bread. Then on the 23rd day, the First Fruits, then 49days later Passover.

 

Chet,

Thanks for the support! *hehe* Like I said, this is one of those topics I "just never thought about" much. I believed it, thought it scriptural, but never had it challenged before. I wasn't sure if I was making any sense at all, but I know that this theory sure confused me! And thanks for clarifying the Holy Spirit's role in the OT for me. I know how that works, but am not the greatest at explaining things .

Thomas,

Yes it is more than many days hence. You and I both know that he was talking to the Apostles then. But if you are to say that they were the only ones to be baptized with the Spirit, then you have to say that we do not have the Spirit. Yes, it was different on that day. What can I say the HS loves to make a grand appearance! That does not mean that he left the scene after that!

Acts 11:17 "Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God"

You are the educated one here, tell me does it really say "similiar" gift or the same gift as he did unto us? Isn't the word "like" defined "equal" in the Greek? (I don't know how to type Greek on here but it is like IsoB) Peter also says "as he did unto us". It sounds to me like he is saying that they were Baptized with the Holy Ghost just the same then. Otherswise, why would he remember those words. That should have only related to the upper room according to you.

Larry,

John 20:21-22 would have to have been "prophetic" or a filling of the Holy Spirit as done in OT times or for a different purpose. I know this may not make sense, but otherwise it not only contradicts the day of Pentecost, but it would contradict Jesus' own words in Acts 1 where he says that they would be filled with the HS not many days hence. If they had already had it, then one of those two verses are not true or we have to believe that the HS can come and go just as it did in the OT and we have no assurance of salvation.

I tend to believe that the Word of God is true and if you find one contradiction to many verses that say otherwise there must be an explanation. I don't doubt my God that easily .

Whew, did I say all that? I truly am enjoying the challenge of this study!!

~Lorelei

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The Spirit of God did indwell the Saints of the OT, but not permanently. They could lose that indwelling. They could not lose their salvation but the indwelling. David said:

Ps 51:11
Do not cast me away from Your presence, And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
NKJV

And Jesus said:

John 7:39
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to
that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
NIV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think there are NT differences in the work fo the Spirit. However, if we believe that man is dead in sins in teh OT and the NT, how do you account for spiritual life and Christian living apart from regeneration and indwelling. I know some argue for it but I don't see it.

I think Ps 51.7 refers to the theocratic anointing which was a special power given for leadership. Moses, Joshua, the judges, Saul, David, etc. all had it. It could be taken away as it was from Saul. That is different than the indwelling.

 

The Passover lambs were killed (Mark 14:12) on 14 Nisan (Mar./Apr.). That Thursday evening, the Passover meal was eaten. On Friday the 15th, Jesus was tried, crucified, and buried. On Sunday the 17th, Jesus was resurrected.

“From the day after the Sabbath, the day the bundle of grain was lifted up as an offering, count off seven weeks. 16 Keep counting until the day after the seventh Sabbath, fifty days later, and bring an offering of new grain to the Lord. (Lev 23:15-16 NLT)

The day after the Sabbath refers to "after the Passover," which was the day Jesus was resurrected. Notice in Lev. it was the grain that was "lifted up" the day after the Sabbath, and our Lord and Savior was "lifted up" on the day after the Sabbath!

Then they were to count 50 days and make a "first fruits" offering. The work of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost both was a "first fruits" offering, and received a "first fruits" offering, the first fruits of the church.

God bless!

 

I would respectfully submit that the wave sheaf offering is said to commence "on the morrow after the sabbath..." (Levit. 23-11). The question is which sabbath, the one that occurs on the first or last day of passover? If Jesus is the "passover lamb" and the "firstfruits" (and I believe he is both) wouldn't his blood covering be on the 14th and his resurrection be on sirifat haomer (feast of early firstfruits)?

Cotton

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Larry:
Thomas Cassidy said " (Someone on this board even said recently that the gospels should be read as being OT!) But Mark 1:1-4 says NT gospel preaching began with John the Baptist!"

Could you please enlighten me? I seem to be misunderstanding the following verse.

Hebrews 9:14-17 . . . I'm thinking that the NT began after Jesus died, what am I missing?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I would be glad to enlighten you, but you will not like the answer for it will fly in the face of your entire preconceived theological system. If you will read Hebrews 9 in context you will see that Christ promised to make the New Covenant with the same people He made the Old Covenant with, the Nation of Israel! We, of the church age, are not and never have been Covenantal people! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>2) If the church/NT was before the cross, we have to answer questions about Jesus telling a man to offer a sacrifice.

Mark 1:44
And saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing those things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The bible itself already answered your question in the last 5 words. Not for his cleansing, but for a testimony unto them! To help them understand that Christ did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And we have to answer questions about the Church being shut up to the Gentiles

Matthew 10:5
These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Did the Church go threw a time where they were still under the Law and a time where the Gentiles were not invited and considered as dogs?

That’s spooky theology
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You are correct! Your theology is spooky! The progression could not be more clear. To the Jew FIRST then to the Gentile. As the Covenantal people of God, the Jews had the honor of being the first to hear the Good News that Messiah had come. After Israel had been told, the message was to go to all the world.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lorelei:
Thomas,

Yes it is more than many days hence. You and I both know that he was talking to the Apostles then. But if you are to say that they were the only ones to be baptized with the Spirit, then you have to say that we do not have the Spirit. Yes, it was different on that day. What can I say the HS loves to make a grand appearance! That does not mean that he left the scene after that!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Whenever anyone trys to tell me "you have to say . . . " I know they know they have already lost the argument! I had some water this morning, but I was not baptized again this morning. I drank some water last night but I was not baptized again last night. Each new believer receives the gift of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but the church collectively, assembled in the upper room (or anywhere else) has NEVER been baptized in the Holy Spirit again. There has been no sound as a rushing wind, and no tongues of fire over their head. Period! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Acts 11:17 "Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God"

You are the educated one here, tell me does it really say "similiar" gift or the same gift as he did unto us? Isn't the word "like" defined "equal" in the Greek? (I don't know how to type Greek on here but it is like IsoB) Peter also says "as he did unto us". It sounds to me like he is saying that they were Baptized with the Holy Ghost just the same then. Otherswise, why would he remember those words. That should have only related to the upper room according to you.[/b]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The received exactly the same gift, the Holy Spirit. They were not baptized in the Holy Spirit, they were indwelt with the Holy Spirit. If you think they were baptized in the Holy Spirit please show me where it says they heard the sound of a might wind and saw tongues of fire over their heads. They did not. The received the same gift, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, different from John 20, which was a receiving the Holy Spirit upon them for the specific task of preaching, but now indwelt with the Holy Spirit permanently!

And, if you wish to continue this discussion with me, please drop the attitude. Your comment of "You are the educated one here" was out of line. This is not about education, it is about what the bible says. Anyone with a 5th grade education can read it and understand it.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas Cassidy:

And, if you wish to continue this discussion with me, please drop the attitude. Your comment of "You are the educated one here" was out of line. This is not about education, it is about what the bible says. Anyone with a 5th grade education can read it and understand it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thomas,

Please accept my sincerest apology. That really was out of line and I do not know why I worded it that way or where that came from. I have nothing but respect for you and many of the other posters here. I have read, agreed and learned much from what you have posted in all the forums here. I do a lot more reading then I do posting and have looked at the site to your church as well. I know you pastor a church and I sort of "look up" to you and other pastor/teachers here. I may have said it that way, but honestly I felt no animonisty towards you then, now, or ever. I meant that you were the teacher and I was the student and I needed some clarification. I was, however, already in an emotional state that probably caused my spiteful attitude to shine through and for that I am not proud. I ask forgiveness and admit no matter what my intentions, my attitude was not right and I should not have been posting but should have been in prayer. I hope you can accept my apology.

There are many threads that I found difficult to follow because of the theology and terminology that I am not familiar with, but I try to read on and learn anyway. (Usually in the Theology forum where I read a whole lot more then I post ) I am here to learn and I meant what I said. I am truly enjoying the challenge of this discussion.

I understand that even a 5th grader can read the Bible, but I was after what the original Greek said in that particular verse. I used an interlinear on the net to find that it meant "same" and not necessarily similiar as it could be used that way today. I have had other people tell me that some defintions I had come up with were not quite right, so I was honestly wanting to know what it said. (for instance some people say that the word prophecy in 1 Cor 14 means to "preach" but my strongs defines it as "fortelling future events". So I was wondering what about this word and how it was defined.) I am not that good at explaining things, especially those I do not understand. I do not understand your interpretation because I have never heard it before, but I am trying. Please bear with me.

Anyway, I hope we can get back to the discussion. Again, there was no excuse for my behavior, I know not where it came from, just that it was wrong. I know that I do admire and respect your love and dedication to the Lord. Please forgive me.

~Lorelei

PS. I do think I am beginning to see what you are saying now about the Baptism at Pentecost being a one time thing because of the way it was done. How would you define the word "baptism" then? Maybe that is where I am confused.

 

Lorelei
Being "filled" is different than receiving. Matthew 4:1 says Jesus was "led up of the Spirit" and Luke says "Being Full of the Holy Ghost". In Acts 4:8 "Then Peter, Filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto the people…" Peter hadn't lost the Holy Ghost, he was controlled by the Holy Ghost. The same way someone full of anger might hit someone.

What do you think?

ThomasCassidy
Quote
_____________________________________________________________________________________
I would be glad to enlighten you, but you will not like the answer for it will fly in the face of your entire preconceived theological system. If you will read Hebrews 9 in context you will see that Christ promised to make the New Covenant with the same people He made the Old Covenant with, the Nation of Israel! We, of the church age, are not and never have been Covenantal people!
______________________________________________________________________________________

OK now I really feel dumb… we were talking about whether or not the Gospels were under the OT or the NT. Who said anything about the Church being "Covenantal people"? I don’t mind the attitude but please move slowly from one subject to another.
BTW just what preconceived theological system do you think I have?
______________________________________________________________________________________

Quote
The bible itself already answered your question in the last 5 words. Not for his cleansing, but for a testimony unto them! To help them understand that Christ did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it!
______________________________________________________________________________________

I suppose I could have found a better verse as an example of Jesus obeying and telling others to obey the OT law because, at the time they were under the OT ant the NT.


_____________________________________________________________________________________
Quote
You are correct! Your theology is spooky! The progression could not be more clear. To the Jew FIRST then to the Gentile. As the Covenantal people of God, the Jews had the honor of being the first to hear the Good News that Messiah had come. After Israel had been told, the message was to go to all the world.
______________________________________________________________________________________

I'm still overlooking the attitude. Wouldn’t it be accurate to say "he came unto his own, and his own received him not? But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God,"...?
Read Romans 8 and 9 the Gentiles weren't second on the list, they weren't on the list!

 

Hey Bro. Larry, how did you get your post so enlarged and distorted compared to the others?

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lorelei:
Please accept my sincerest apology.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Forgiven and forgotten.

 

Pastor Larry you said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I think Ps 51.7 refers to the theocratic anointing which was a special power given for leadership. Moses, Joshua, the judges, Saul, David, etc. all had it. It could be taken away as it was from Saul. That is different than the indwelling.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I can accept that. Certainly what you said is true, they were under a theocratic system. But I am more inclined to believe because of the context that David was seeking
forgiveness because of his great sin. He was speaking to God on an individual, personal level. You said that they needed indwelling to live Godly lives, but I don’t think they lived the type of lives we have available to us today. They were led by the Law. We are led by the Spirit. We have an advantage that I don’t believe they had then. In essence we have a somewhat higher standard. When Jesus said “By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.” What else could he have meant? Then He teaches about the coming of the great comforter in John 16 and the work the Spirit will be doing. This was unique, not yet known by anyone.

Thomas Cassidy said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The bible itself already answered your question in the last 5
words. Not for his cleansing, but for a testimony unto them! To help them understand that Christ did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Then should we still be sacrificing for a testimony unto them? And should we do so to show that Christ came to fulfill the law? Christ did come to fulfill the law and it is now fulfilled. Fulfill does not mean confirm.

The book of Matthew presents Jesus who was under the law, lived in perfect obedience to
the Law and died to complete the law, as King to the nation of Israel. Matthew 10 is not a gospel of salvation, but the gospel of the kingdom. It was not offered to the Gentiles, but only to the Jews.

The question about Jesus starting His Church before the day of Pentecost becomes clear when we study the big picture. The OT saints, including those found in Matthew Mark Luke and John did not know about this age of the Church. It was completely unknown. Neither would it have happened if the Jewish people would have accepted Jesus as their King. We can even see that Peter had the literal Kingdom on his mind in his first sermon even after they were given the Sprit of God and Baptized by that Sprit into Christ. He still wanted Israel to repent and be baptized by Johns baptism so that Christ would return right then! Never did he know that God would later give him a vision on a roof top. Also I think there is yet another bit of confusion. We are not baptized in the Spirit but by the Sprit. The baptism of the Sprit took place in Acts 2 - 10 - 19. And Paul told us that all of us are baptized by the Sprit into the body of Christ who are saved in this age. This age is known as the times of the Gentiles, as they too can be saved. Just as my dear brother Larry correctly used Romans 9-11 to show that Gods Salvation is available to anyone, Jew or Gentile. The Baptism of the Sprit is not a second blessing, it happens at salvation. It is not something we feel, or can experience over and over. He regenerates us, indwells us, fills us, seals us, comforts us, guides us, teaches us, helps us and baptized us into the Body and placed us IN Christ. This age was not intend for anyone until after Pentecost.

John 3:26-31
And they came to John and said to him, "Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified--behold, He is baptizing, and all are coming to Him!" John answered and said, "A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven. You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, 'I am not the Christ,' but, 'I have been sent before Him.' "He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom's voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled. He must increase, but I must decrease.
NKJV

With love,

Chet

[ September 01, 2001: Message edited by: Chet ]

 

Chet,

I think David was seeking forgiveness. But it is a false assumption to presume that his sin would take the Holy Spirit from him. There is no biblical evidence to support that apart from your presupposition that it could happen. I think the passage indicates David’s understanding that he had possibly forfeited his right to lead, just as Saul had when the Spirit was taken from him and given to David. The John passage you quote does refer to the work of the Spirit but it is a non sequiter to believe that it refers to indwelling. There is no way to account for spiritual life and growth apart from indwelling in the OT. Since it is clear that the spiritual life cannot be lived without the Spirit, it seems necessary to have indwelling in the OT.

 

Hey Bro. Larry, how did you get your post so enlarged and distorted compared to the others?
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

I don’t know. I had cut and pasted my post from Microsoft Word. The only thing different from my other posts was I had underlined where I quoted someone. I underlined where I cut and pasted your post. We will see if it works again.