Is Matthew 19 speaks of having eternal life via good works?

Nope. I have heard of Joey Faust, but I've never studied any of his material. But the vast majority of academia will not be in the know when it comes to the teaching of the Word of the Kingdom according to Matthew 13. And people were already trying to destroy the teaching during the days of the apostles, so you can just imagine how much destruction has gone on in the last 2,000 or so years. That's why not many folks now about this teaching, especially in the academic circles.

However the president emeritis of Western Baptist seminary is one academian that believes these things as far as I can tell.

Originally posted by J. Jump:
Nope. I have heard of Joey Faust, but I've never studied any of his material. But the vast majority of academia will not be in the know when it comes to the teaching of the Word of the Kingdom according to Matthew 13. And people were already trying to destroy the teaching during the days of the apostles, so you can just imagine how much destruction has gone on in the last 2,000 or so years. That's why not many folks now about this teaching, especially in the academic circles.

However the president emeritis of Western Baptist seminary is one academian that believes these things as far as I can tell.

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How can anyone destroy a teaching that is in the Bible without ridding the earth of the Bibles? Obviously enough, the answer is that they can’t.

One of the most important and basic tests of the truth of a Christian doctrine is whether or not it is found throughout the history of the Church along with all the garbage. God is no respecter of persons; He has taught the same truths throughout the history of the church to everyone who has sought to find it in the Bible. Your doctrine, however, . . . .

"One of the most important and basic tests of the truth of a Christian doctrine is whether or not it is found throughout the history of the Church along with all the garbage."

Can you provide Scriptural backing for this belief? I thought it was whether or not it was found in the Bible? And you can find this doctrine in both the Old and New Testament.

Not sure if there is a "family tree" if you will of folks that have believed in this doctrine, however I have actually been interested in this subject myself and have only done a little research. The problem is that a great number of the folks that have taught this are no dead.

Originally posted by Me4Him:
In Heaven, the "Father" sits on the throne
On earth, Jesus sits on "HIS Throne",

At the GWT, it's Jesus sitting on the throne because it's "on earth" and all Judgment is committed to Jesus, the Son, not the Father.

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Let me put the verse down again so you can make sure you get the tense of the verbs correct.

Revelation 3:21 "To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

There are three verbs in this verse:
1)will grant - promise to believers of something future (millenial kingdom) when Christ allows believers to reign with Him.

2)overcame - THIS VERB IS AORIST TENSE. It describes, not something future, but something that has taken place at a single point in time, usually past.

3)sat down - also aorist tense.

Now follow me here. Jesus sat down with His Father on His [Father's] throne. This either means that He is currently on the throne with His Father (not that He is the Father, but that they are both reigning together) OR that He sat down and stood right back up so as not to confuse all the dispensationalists who's charts don't have him reigning until the Millenium.

I am not confusing the Trinity. The Father is not the Son. The Son is not the Father. Neither are the Spirit, but they are all God. I have no problem with both the Father and the Son sitting on the throne reigning. Do you?

BTW, what about Isaiah 6, where the Lord is sitting on a throne? That's the Father, you say? John said it was Jesus.

John 12:37-41 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?" 39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them." 41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.

so you can just imagine how much destruction has gone on in the last 2,000 or so years.

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How can anyone destroy a teaching that is in the Bible without ridding the earth of the Bibles?

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One example is the word "aionios". It has been changed, even in the academic world, by Roman Catholic doctrine. It's right there, plainly in sight, yet people say, "Even though it says this, it really means that".

The traditions of men blind people to the plain reading of Scripture. Always has, and until the end, it will continue doing so.

Although I'm a KJV type of guy, there is a lot of Catholic dogma contained therein through interpretation, rather than translation.

Hope of Glory wrote,

One example is the word "aionios". It has been changed, even in the academic world, by Roman Catholic doctrine. It's right there, plainly in sight, yet people say, "Even though it says this, it really means that".

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This is an absolutely false statement!

Please stop posting false statements on Christian message boards.

Well. back to Mt. 19.

The interpretation of the text is this:

A man that Jesus knows to be a sinner and yet thinks he is not, comes to Him with a question about how to be saved. Jesus already knows that he can't fulfill the deed of perfect righteousness by the Law since He set the bar too high already in Mt. 5:48.

So Jesus tells the man to fulfill the Commandments that pertain to being good toward people. Notice how He doesn't mention the first three Commandments that pertain to God.

The man, even if he was right which I doubt, says that he kept those Commandments. But Jesus knowing what his real god was, money, then asks him to sell all that he has, give it to the poor, and come and follow Him. (Which of course would have required saving faith).

The man of course refuses and moves on. So then, quess how far this so-called righteous man got through the Ten Commandments before he sinned?

He couldn't even get past the first one! He had another god before Him. (Rom. 3:10,23)

The verse that Catholics and others that just love this text to "prove" that the keeping of the Law is a requirement for salvation always miss verse 26 which states:

"But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."

Jesus plainly states the Gospel in John 6:40,47; 11:25-26. By grace alone through faith alone.

Rom. 3:20,24,28; Gal. 2:16.

Thank you Jack for getting us back on track. BTW, for what its worth, I think you nailed it.

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
Thank you Jack for getting us back on track. BTW, for what its worth, I think you nailed it.

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Thanks, and welcome to the board!

The only way to determine how a particular culture or group of people used a word is to study it in the context of their writings and compare its usage in other writings of the same and earlier periods. Therefore, let’s look at how the word αιωνιος is used in the New Testament.

It is used of God.

Rom. 16:26. but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;

It is used of divine possessions and gifts.

2 Cor. 4:18. while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

2 Thes. 2:16. Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace,

1 Tim. 6:16. who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

2 Tim. 2:10. For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.

Heb. 5:9. And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,

Heb. 9:12. and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Heb. 9:14. how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb. 9: 15. For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb. 13:20. Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord,

1 Pet. 5:10. After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.

It is used to express eschatological expectation.

Matt. 18:8. "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.

Matt. 25:41. "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Matt. 25:46. "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Mark 3:29. but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin"--

Luke 16:9. "And I say to you, make friends for yourselves by means of the wealth of unrighteousness, so that when it fails, they will receive you into the eternal dwellings.

2 Cor. 5:1. For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Tit. 1:2. in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,

Heb. 6:2. of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.

2 Pet. 1:11. for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

Jude 7. just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

It is used to express a long duration of time short of eternity.

Rom. 16:25. Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,

2 Tim 1:9. who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Tit. 1:2. in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,

(All Scriptures are from the NASB, 1995)

It is NEVER used in reference to a millennial period!

Originally posted by J. Jump:
Here is a very basic timeline that I put together several weeks ago if anyone is interested: http://www.1-heart.org/timeline.gif

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"IF" you're interested.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3398.html

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:

Now follow me here. Jesus sat down with His Father on His [Father's] throne. This either means that He is currently on the throne with His Father (not that He is the Father, but that they are both reigning together) OR that He sat down and stood right back up so as not to confuse all the dispensationalists who's charts don't have him reigning until the Millenium.

I am not confusing the Trinity. The Father is not the Son. The Son is not the Father. Neither are the Spirit, but they are all God. I have no problem with both the Father and the Son sitting on the throne reigning. Do you?

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If you'll pay close attention when reading, the only place in scripture you'll find Jesus sitting on "his throne" is "on the earth", and in heaven, it's on the "right hand" of the throne, not the throne it's self.

Lu 22:69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.

Ac 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

The "Right hand" of God is Jesus.

Ps 118:16 The right hand of the LORD is exalted:

Originally posted by Me4Him:
If you'll pay close attention when reading, the only place in scripture you'll find Jesus sitting on "his throne" is "on the earth", and in heaven, it's on the "right hand" of the throne, not the throne it's self.

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I like all those verses you quoted for me. But you completely ignored everything I just typed about Revelation 3:21. Jesus SAT DOWN on His Father's throne. End of story.

Originally posted by J. Jump:
[QB] Calvibaptist,

I would encourage you to reconsider whether or not the Jews were still dead in trespasses and sins. I would suggest that they were not. The offer of the Kingdom of God, or the Kingdom of the Heavens (look it's actually plural in the original language) was the heavenly sphere of the earthly kingdom of which the physical part had already been promised.

These folks would have been in no way able to even entertain the offer unless they were alive spiritually. For a spiritually dead person can not understand spiritual matters.

The offer of salvation by grace through faith was unneeded, because these folks had already shown their faith in believing what God said about the sacrifices pointing to the Ultimate Sacrifice Jesus Christ. He didn't come to these folks as Savior, He came to them as Messiah/King/Annointed One.

The didn't reject a Savior they rejected a King.

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OK, I waited a day, hoping someone else would respond to this, and I am sorry that no one is concerned here.

Are you telling me that all the Jews that Jesus was telling to repent were already saved? Are you suggesting that the same Jews who tried to throw Jesus off a cliff, attempted to stone Him, formed a mob to take Him to Pilate, spat on Him, mocked Him, beat Him, shouted for His crucifixion, and made fun of Him as He died were ALREADY SAVED????

Whose theology is getting in the way of the plain reading of Scripture here. You suggest that they rejected Him as their king but didn't need Him as their Savior? Not to bring up the old Lordship Salvation debate, but Jesus is BOTH Savior and Lord. You can't have one without the other.

Luke 13:1-5 There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answered and said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 "I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 "Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 "I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish."

This message was not for those who were already saved because of their belief in the sacrificial system. This message was for those who needed a Savior or they would perish.

Calvibaptist it sounds as though your mind is pretty made up so I'll will leave it at that. It is not my job to convince you something is true. So it doesn't look like it will be profitable for us to go any further.

Are you telling me that all the Jews that Jesus was telling to repent were already saved? Are you suggesting that the same Jews who tried to throw Jesus off a cliff, attempted to stone Him, formed a mob to take Him to Pilate, spat on Him, mocked Him, beat Him, shouted for His crucifixion, and made fun of Him as He died were ALREADY SAVED????

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Our churches are full of saved people today who would do the same thing (perhaps figuratively) if Jesus showed up in their midst today.

Of course, you can argue that they're "not truly saved", which is what I expect.

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Are you telling me that all the Jews that Jesus was telling to repent were already saved? Are you suggesting that the same Jews who tried to throw Jesus off a cliff, attempted to stone Him, formed a mob to take Him to Pilate, spat on Him, mocked Him, beat Him, shouted for His crucifixion, and made fun of Him as He died were ALREADY SAVED????

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Our churches are full of saved people today who would do the same thing (perhaps figuratively) if Jesus showed up in their midst today.

Of course, you can argue that they're "not truly saved", which is what I expect. </font>[/QUOTE]Good expectation! But I think I will let the Scripture argue for me.

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Luke 6:43-45 For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 "For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush. 45 "A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Get the picture? I do not argue for perfectionism. But faith produces fruit. Our churches are probably full of people who have prayed the sinners' prayer, raised their hand, gone forward during the invitation and even been baptized, but are unsaved. Their lives betray the fact. The reason the Jews rejected their Messiah was because they were lost. This is what Peter tells them in Acts 2. That is why they needed to repent to receive "remission of sins."

But faith produces fruit. Our churches are probably full of people who have prayed the sinners' prayer, raised their hand, gone forward during the invitation and even been baptized, but are unsaved. Their lives betray the fact.

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Yes, faith produces fruit, and our churches are full of unsaved people. But, blessedly, our salvation is not based upon our performance, or we would all be in trouble. There is not some magical line of performance, above which you are saved (or proved you are saved), and below which you are going into the lake of fire.

Our salvation, is based only upon our exceptance of the free gift that is offered to us and that is based upon the finished work of the Lord Jesus on the cross.

Despite the fact that our churches are full of lost people, they are also full of saved people who would gladly kill Jesus for being a heretic, if he appeared in their midst today, just as the Jews did.

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> But faith produces fruit. Our churches are probably full of people who have prayed the sinners' prayer, raised their hand, gone forward during the invitation and even been baptized, but are unsaved. Their lives betray the fact.

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Yes, faith produces fruit, and our churches are full of unsaved people. But, blessedly, our salvation is not based upon our performance, or we would all be in trouble. There is not some magical line of performance, above which you are saved (or proved you are saved), and below which you are going into the lake of fire.

Our salvation, is based only upon our exceptance of the free gift that is offered to us and that is based upon the finished work of the Lord Jesus on the cross.

Despite the fact that our churches are full of lost people, they are also full of saved people who would gladly kill Jesus for being a heretic, if he appeared in their midst today, just as the Jews did. </font>[/QUOTE]I heartily agree with everything but your last statement. Yes, salvation is based only upon our exceptance of the free gift. But that acceptance is tantamount to love for the Lord who offers us that gift. To suggest that someone who loves the Lord would act like the Jews did is absurd.

Absolutely. Anyone who is truely saved is born again. That means their sinful nature is changed into a godly nature. That doesn't mean they are perfect but the master of their life is Christ not the flesh.