Is Matthew 19 speaks of having eternal life via good works?

Sorry - I should have written "Matt 22".

 

Of course not.

How did you get that from the passage in Matt 22???

What if the man excluded from the church doesn't repent of his sin? Will God allow those he throws out of the church to enter into His kingdom?

But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. (1 Cor 5:11)

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor 6:9-10)

 

I'm back.

I haven't make a post at baptistboard for long time.

I have reading this topic. Bro. Ruben, I am glad that you bring this up at baptistboard. I am glad that you opened this topic and asking us about our comment on Matthew 19:16-29.

This topic is so very important for every baptists, also, all religions people ought to know about salvation. It is very serious matter.

I want to telling you. I am a truly baptist. At first, I was an independent fundamental baptist(ifb), because I used to attend ifb church for long time. I thought ifb teaching the sound doctrines and truth from the Bible. I learned through my friends(baptists), listening pastor, reading books, also attended Midwestern Baptist College of Pontiac, Michigan.

I thought the doctrine of security salvation from the Bible is truth and sound. Ifb churches and colleges strongly teaching on security salvation, even, they teaching on unconditional salvation.

Myself was pretrib for only 4 years. Till I became pre-wrath in 1992 for 8 years. Then, I became posttrib in 2000.

Myself used to believe in security salvation for many years till about 3 years ago, I realized that security salvation is not biblical. Because I have been study Bible deeper so carefully and serious. I found there are so much overwhelming evidences of unconditional salavtion with warnings in the Bible. I have determined to follow what the Bible saying rather what men saying.

Also, I was used to believe in premill for many years. Till 5 years ago, I became amill. Because, there is no passage find anywhere in Bible mentioned on 'a thousand years' or millennial kingdom.

I really, really so disappoint with ifb churches for misleading millions for believing in unconditional salvation. Not just only ifb churches, also, many SBC churches do teaching on unconditional salvation or security salvation.

I notice many ifb people & pastors saying that they against calvinism. But, they didn't realize that the between of IFB's teaching and Calvinism doctrine on salvation are same.

Calvinism teaches on 'The Perservance of the Saints' is comparing same with IFB's teaching of 'security salvation'. There is no difference between them. Because both believe in unconditional salvation. Uncondtional salvation means, anything of condtions or situations cannot effect person's salvation. Conditional salvation means anything of conditions, situations can effect person's salvation.

Over 95% of IFB believe in unconditional salvation.

6 Years ago, I brought Gary T. Whipple's book - '[Italic]Beyond the Rapture![/Italic] at Deaf Baptist Fellowship of America Conference in Ohio. Before I buy it, the man who selling ton of books, when I looked at that book, he told me, that book is so deep and theology. So, I decided to buy it. But I not yet start to read it till about 2 or 3 years later.

Early in my Christian life. I used to believe that a Christian who do not faithful or serve the Lord, shall not be enter millennial, but cast in the darkeness place somewhere in the heaven like as "grounded" during millennial period.

In 1992, I brought another book - "The Rod" by Joey Faust.

Little earlier before I start to read Faust's book. I did started to read "Beyond The Rapture!". I did agreed with Whipple's comment about chasten and excluded from enter millennial kingdom.

About one year later, after I started to read Whipple's book. I start to study on salvation in the Bible by myself. I notice Matt. 25:30 disturbs me the mostly whilst myself beleving in security salvation same time. I can easily understood what Matt. 25:14-30 talking about. Obivously, Christ tells us that, a lazy servant shall be cast away into darkness is speak of everlasting fire- lake of fire. I realized Matt. 25:30 speaks loudly against security salvation or undconditional salvation. I have been struggling with verses about unconditiuonal salvation.

At first, I used to believe in pretrib rapture. I thought pretribulationism doctrine is truth and sound, because of the Bible sayinbg so according what IFB teaching. I realized that, IFB heavily reconcile or connect pretribulationism with security salvation both go together.

In 1992, I realized that Revelation 13:10-18 telling us, that Antichrist shall persecute against Christians, it warns that, if any person(include elect) worship the beast, or receive the mark shall be cast away into everlasting fire same with Rev. 14:9-12.

So, in that time, I used to believe two things that a Christian could lose salvation - receive the mark & taking word away from God's Word - Rev. 22:19.

Later, the more I realized that I learning from the Bible shows me there is so much overwhelming evdiences about conditional salvation with warnings. So, I am now no longer believe in unconditional salvation or security salvation. I already determined follow what the Bible saying than what men saying according Colossians 2:8.

In 1993, I started to read "The Rod" by Joey Faust. I was shocked, and easily strong disagree with his teachings. Because I learned of conditional salvation with warnings from the Bible about 2 months prior read Faust's book.

When I read Faust's book. His teaching remind me of Whipple's teachings are almost exactly same. Later, I found out that Whipple and Faust both are friends. No wonder.

Bro. Ruben, you say:

[Italic]Can a person(saved by Grace thru faith -- therefore JUstiified) can go to heaven but never join Christ in the millennium? How? Because this man didn't do much good works while living[/Italic]

Also, you say:

[Italic]Because as I study the course of discussions, and the link given about the "Dualism of Eternal Life" which I haven't reading, and to what had happened to the Rich Young Ruler, it is like telling me that there could be Christians(or say saved believers) who might not be able to join the millennium.[/Italic]

I did read "Dualism of Eternal Life" not long time ago. I strong disagree with it.

Whipple, Faust, and others teaching that 'cannot enter or inherit the kingdom' means, cannot enter millennial kingdom.

Throughout in the Bible never, never, never saying that, 'kingdom' is so called, "millennial kingdom". Because none of these passages relate with kingdom mentioned, "a thousand years".

Many passages in the Bible mentioned on kingdom, for example - Gal. 5:19-21 speaking of eternal life. If any person doing evil things, cannot enter eternal life, obivously, it means a person who doing evil things will go straight into everlasting fire! That's period!

Faust intepreting Matt. 25:30 speak of temporary ounishment for a thousand years. Temporary punishment??? Does Christ actual saying of Matt. 25:30??? Where does Faust get the idea come from?

No excuse for Faust and others, they should know better than that, they hve their own common sense, that Christ clearly telling us, if any person do not obey Christ, not faithfully, shall be cast into fire is speak of everlasting punishment! According to Matt. 25:30, and more...

I better stop for now. I will post more discuss with verses talking about conditional salvation with warnings. Because I just got home from 3rd shift job this morning. That why, I need soon go to sleep during daytime. Tomorrow, I will make another post to continue discuss on conditional salvation with verses.

I hope that you willing to open your mind, heart and listening what God's Word actual saying.

Have a nice day! God bless you!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Welcome DPT,

Now if AV1611jim, Craigbythesea, and Ed show up we can have a big ole' reunion.

Lacy

 

Matt 22 is a parable about Jesus coming to the Kews, them rejecting him and the gospel being taken to the "GENTILES".

The Jew are "blinded" until the church rapture, (fulness of Gentiles) "AFTER" the rapture is when Satan is then cast down to the earth for the trib period.

Until then he's our accuser "BEFORE GOD", being "cast down" he loses access to heaven, one of the reason he has "great wrath" and "Short time".

Re 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

No one knows the "Day and Hour" of the rapture, but it marks the begininng of the trib and it's how satan knows he has a short time, One week, or seven years, Jesus's returns ends the trib.

Satan is the one "cast out" of heaven when the church arrives.

 

Good morning.

I would to discuss on Matthew 19:16-29 with focus. Because Ruben just brought it up to us, and want us to discuss on this.

Verse 16 - "And behold, one came and said unto him, 'Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?'"

Rich man knew when a person shall die, will face eternality destiny. He believed when a person dies, then shall face eternal life.

During rich man's time in year around 30's A.D. I am sure that he might already read Torah or Old Testament books, during that time, these were canoned together. Also, I am sure that he heard laws from Pharisees, teachers, rabbis, sadducees.

When a rich man heard rumours that Jesus is around here, doing many miracles, teaching many things. So, he decided came to Jesus, called him, 'Good Master'. Jesus told him, why does he called him, "good"? He told him, no one is perfect, only God is perfect.

Rich man asked Christ, "...what good thing shall I do, that I may have ETERNAL LIFE"

Rich man doesn't ask Christ about millennial kingdom. Because, 'a thousand years' is not mentioned or teaching anywhere in Scriptures(Old Testament books). He asked Christ what thing, that he shall do these to enter have eternal life? I am sure that a rich man understood 'eternal life' mean. I am no doubt, he KNEWS there is God in the heaven, also no doubt, he knews living in the heaven is everlasting without end.

'I may have eternal life' obivously is relate with salvation issue.

Then, verse 17b, Christ said unto him, "...but IF thou wilt(desire or want)enter into life KEEP THE COMMANDMENT."

Christ told him, if he(rich man) desires to enter eternal life, then he muest obey God's Word and keep the commandment.

Christ didn't saying to him, "If you desires to enter millennial kingdom, then keep the commandment." Neither, saying, 'a thousand years' either.

Obivously, Christ was talking to him about if he desires to have eternal life, then must obey the commandments, is relate with salvation.

I am aware there is much argument or debate about good works vs. salvation. Often, securists use Ephesians 2:8-9 to prove us, that works cannot saved us, we are saved by the grace through faith only.

I want to telling you, I am 100% agree with Eph. 2:8-9. It emphasis that we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH only.

When a rich man came to Christ. Christ trying him of his heart, to see if he is willing to surrender completely. That is the FAITH.

Back to Matt. 19:16-29.

Verse 18-19: "He saith unto him, 'Which?' Jesus said, 'Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

The rich man asked Christ, "Which one of the commandment?" Then Christ told him, that he do not do these things, as He quoted of the Ten Commandments.

Then, verse 20: "The young man saith unto him, 'All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?"

He told Christ, he did these things in his youth life. No question, he knew Ten Commandments in his youth life, he did obeyed the Ten Commandments. But, he asked Christ, what thing that he missed it?

Then Christ said unto him of verse 21 "Jesus said unto him, 'IF thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and FOLLOW me."

Seem this verse talking about good works. BUT, I understand this verse tells us, that Christ was trying(test) on young man, to see if he have true FAITH, and surrender everything what he possess his things, give his things to the poor, and then he shall receive reward in the heaven, and come to follow Christ.

Then verse 22: "But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions."

When after he heard Christ's word, he was bitter, and refuse to give up his possessions. Show that he was selfish, pride, and save his world things. Obivously, he was not obey Christ, and have NO FAITH in Christ. Because he was worry about being lose everything what he possess them. He don't want to lose his possessions.

Then verse 23: "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, 'Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven."

He told his disciples, that a rich man shall difficult to enter the kingdom heaven. Means, impossible for the rich man to enter into heaven according to Matt. 7:13-14.

Christ continued of verse 24: "And again I say unto you, 'It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

Notice, he said, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle". This is not literal. But, Christ uses camel for the illustration. Because Christ knows all animals' character. He knows camel's character, that it shows always humble, no complaint. Notice in the Middle East, camels carrying heavy load on their back, and walking so many miles away in the desert. Camels have no complain, easy to be willing and obey. That is kind of FAITH.

Then verse 25: "When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly(shocked) amazed, saying, 'WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED?"

Disciples were not asking Christ about millennial kingdom or 'a thousand years'. They asked Christ, 'Who then can BE SAVED?' Obivous, they were asking Christ which relate with salvation.

Verse 26: "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, 'With men this is impossible; but WITH GOD all things are possible."

Christ's point is, depending upon people is no way. Depending upon God of all things are the WAY!(CAN, or sucessful). He was talking about the FAITH.

Look at the example of Abraham. In Genesis chapter 12 telling us, Abraham was so wealthy. God tested on him, to see if he obey God's called, and to yield up everything what he possesses. Hebrews chapter 11 lists of the Old Testament saints included Abraham. It tells us, Abraham left his country by through HIS FAITH.

Throughout in the Bible always emphasis upon FAITH.

We do not focus on laws, good works, but always have our FAITH in thre Lord all the times.

Then verse 27: "Then answered Peter and said unto him, 'Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee, what shall we have therefore?"

Peter told Christ, that we(disciples) did forsaken our things, and to follow Christ, but what thing that they shall inherit?

Verse 28: "And Jesus said unto them, 'Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelves thrones, judging the twelves tribes of Israel."

This verse does not saying anything of millennial kingdom, because 'a thousand years' is not mentioned in this verse. Christ told them, He promises them, if they follow Christ, then when Christ shall come again, and shall sit on his throne, then they shall be given to sit on 12 tribes, to judging the 12 tribes. Obivously, he was talking second coming, and shall given them to judging 12 tribes. I believe the twelves disciples are part of the 24 elders of Revelation chapter 4. Also, I believe when Christ shall come again, He shall given them to judging the twelve tribes of Israel, which is speak of the great white throne & judgement day (Matthew 25:31-46 & Rev. 21:11-15). But, not only future judgement day, also, I believe 12 disciples of Christ are now sitting on the twelve thrones round around Christ of Revelation chapter 4, are currently judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The question is, are the twelve tribes of Israel - literally phsyical 12 tribes of Israel(physical nation locates in the Middle East)?

To my understanding of Revelation chapter 7 and 14 talk about 144,000. To my understanding of it speak of God's people who are redeemed from the workd through the blood of Christ. Also, the number of 144,000 of the 12 twelves with 12,000 each. These are not exactly numbering or literal. But symbol. Also, 144,000 are NOT always all Jews only, even also include Gentiles too. To my understanding of 144,000 are the represent of God's people, notice Rev. 7:19-17 telling us, 144,000 represent of the MULTITUDE of the nations, obivously, it prove that these are not always all Jews only, also include Gentiles too. So, therefore, this is speak toward US as followers.

So, I believe 12 disciples, who are the one of the 24 elders already sitting on the 24 thrones round around Christ.

I would like to share with you of an interesting story what a deaf lady told me. When I was in Ohio years ago. A deaf lady told me, she said, when she was in her mother's womb. Her mother went to the hospital in the labor room, that she(deaf lady) was about to be born. During labor period, her mother died, her soul went up into the heaven. She saw 12 or 24 persons sitting around Christ, they were discussing each other about what do with baby, while mother is in the heaven. Christ told her, "Your time is not yet, your daughter shall be often sicks in the rest of her lifetime, now back to earth." Then, immediately, mother awake up and alive again. THen two years later, she(deaf lady) became very sick, lossing of hearing, became deaf. Then afterward in the rest of her lifetime, she sicks often. I have been seen her sick often many times. I told her, these are 24 elders!!!

I do believe the twelve disciples of Christ are part of the 24 elders, are sitting on the 24 thrones round around Christ in heaven. But I cannot prove them, wait till I get in the heaven when after I die or at Christ's coming, then I will know them.

By the way, I do believe 12 disciples are now currently sitting on 12 thrones in the heaven around Christ, are now judging with the twelve tribes of Israel(Revelation 7 & 14) that mean, 12 disciples are now judging believers(both Jew & Gentiles) in heaven.

But, no doubt, Matt. 19:28 must be relate about the second advent, that they shall judging the twelves tribes of Israel(followers).

Now back to Matt. 19:16-29.

Verse 29: "And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit EVERLASTING LIFE."

I believe Christ was speak of this verse is toward to US everyone, that if we forsake everything, and to follow Christ, shall receive great blessings and reward, even shall get EVERLASTING LIFE!!!

I want to discuss about this verse.

If suppose, a Christian who was called by God, did yield up and followed Christ, BUT shortly later, a Christian decided to stopped follow Christ, shall a Christian ever receive reward, and even have everlasting life?

NO.

Craigbythesea is right, as what he has shown us of Heb. 6:4-6. That a person did actual taste of salvation at the beginning, but then falling away, IMPOSSIBLE for a person to be remain renew again unto repentance. To my understanding of this passage warns us, if a person, who once tasted of salvation did renew(born again), but afterward falling away, no way that person might be REMAIN saved. This passage does not saying that no way for a person can be again to be repentance after falling away. This passage telling us, at the first place, when a person did actual taste of salvation(saved), then afterward falling away then become lost cannot be remain saved.

UNLESS when a Christian falling away, it still have chance for a Christian to repent again of salvation while alive(not yet die-physical).

OR.... if suppose a Christian, who once did taste of salvation, afterward falling away, become lost, and no longer remain saved, WHILE a Christian is still backslidding all the way throughout lifetime till death WITHOUT repent, still not saved at the end.

That why Matt. 10:22 & Matt. 24:13 telling us, that we ought to be endure all the way throughout our lifetime till we die THEN shall be saved.

OR... what if we decide to give up and stopped endure in the half way of our life, and turn away as backslidding, remain in backslidding all the way in the last half or part of our lifetime without repent till by the time we die wihtout repent, THEN we shall NOT be saved.

See?

Bible emphasis that we ought to be endure even with our faith toward Christ all the way throughout our lifetime TILL we die or Christ comes, then we shall be saved. Obivously it is conditional salvation with warning. No way that we could ignore warnings from the Bible. We must take heed what God's Word. Obey it.

I hope that you would understand what I am talking about of Matt. 19:16-29.

Have a nice day! God bless you!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

I would like to add telling you something about the word, "rest" in the book of Hebrews in the New Testament. Word, 'rest' never saying so called, "millennial kingdom" anywhere throughout in the book of Hebrews.

My understanding of Hebrews chapter 4 talking about the example of Moses and people in the wilderness during 40 years. They were not yet rest in the wilderness. They faced many tribulations, trials in the wilderness. When they were out of Egypt. Canaan is not far away from Egypt. There is about 40 to 50 years apart between them. They could have enter into Canaan from egypt within one to two days.

Enter into the land of Canaan is the type of heaven, a finally rest place.

The first generation of Israel who were delivery out of Egypt, all of them were died, do not enter into Canaan, except only Joshua and Caleb. Because of their lack of faith and disobedience God. We should be fear of them what we have learning the lesson, what happened to them, that failed to enter into the land of Canaan.

"Rest" is not speak of the seventh day or sabbath either. But it is speak of salvation through Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is our rest, and our hope. We have to faith depend on Jesus Christ only. Also, 'rest' is not speak of millennial kingdom. Because 'a thousand years' is not find mentioned anywhere in book of Hebrews.

It commands us that we must be endure & steadfast unto the end, then we shall enter into rest - victory and have eternal life.

Many were not enter into the land of Canaan or rest, because of their unbelief. We should be fear what ahppened to them.

Romans 11:19-23 give us the lesson, what happened to them, that they were cut off because of their unbelief. Same with John chapter 15. Jesus tells us, that we must be abide in Christ, or if we do not abide in Christ, shall be uct off and cast into fire - everlasting punishment.

That why we must fear of the Lord with trembling, because we all shall face the judgment seat of Christ. It is not funny.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Hey DPT, wondered what happen to you!

I’m about as far from falling into the philosophies of man, especially something like Calvinism as one can be but I do strongly lean toward believing that God preserves His saints.

Being a Post-Triber what would you do with a verse such as:
(Mat 24:24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible , they shall deceive the very elect.

Personally I look at the warnings of apostasy as just that, warnings to the saints that will hear and stay on the right path and these warnings are there to make sure of that. A saint does believe and will tremble in fear and obey.

 

Amen! This word cannot in any fashion be translated as "eternal". Many interpret it to be "eternal", however, although I think the Holy Spirit said exactly what he meant: "Life in the age to come".

The Greek has expressions for "eternal" (without beginning or ending, or existing outside of time) and everlasting (without end). Aionian life is of limited duration; it's the life for the age to come.

Interpreting "age-lasting" to mean "eternal" is the teaching of the Catholic church, which translated it into the Lating "aeternus" (sp?), and the KJV back translated it from the Latin as "eternal".

 

DPT

Do you believe God "lied" to the Jewish people, of course you don't,

then "WHEN" is this "MESSIAH" coming to rule over Israel as promised to the Jews in the OT???


Jesus coming and setting up a "Spiritual Kingdom" (Church) was a "MYSTERY" not revealed to Israel, they were expecting the "Messiah/Kingdom" described in the OT, a "literal Messiah" who would set up a "literal Kingdom" and rule/conquers all of Israel's enemies/the world, as Jesus will when He returns.

In not believing the Mill reign, your ignorance of the Messiah's two comings/Kingdoms is like the Jews, only "Reversed".

(p.s. I'm having trouble with this site loading lately, anyone else having problems??)

 

Mt 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

Lu 12:33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.


Mt 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Jas 5:3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

Mt 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

The Young rich man's "Treasure" was "in the bank", rather than "in the Lord".

 

It sounds to me like you are being blown about with every wind of doctrine. Eph. 4:14

You need to quit reading books and study the Book. You were probably more on track when you were just prayerfully reading the Word.

 

I think we all would agree that Jesus had been crucified and resurrected years before John wrote the book of Revelation. Correct? The only real support for the Millenium is in Rev. Chap. 20, right? Then how did the rich young ruler refer to the Millenium years before the idea was included in the inspired book of God? Jesus always referred to heaven when He spoke of eternal life, which does mean infinite.

 

Heaven is almost never the object when discussing the next life. The kingdom to the Jews was an earthly kingdom with the Messiah ruling from the throne of David. The throne of David is in Jerusalem, not in the third heaven. When Jesus spoke of heaven, it was usually in the context of the kingdom of heaven. Of heaven simply shows that it is established by the power of God, who of course is in heaven. The idea that believers spend eternity in heaven is foreign to scripture. Man was created to occupy the earth.

Jesus did speak of somewhat of heaven. He often mentioned the Father in heaven. He also told us to store up treasures in heaven.

Mat 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Mat 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

The fact that we may have rewards and treasures in heaven does not imply that we will be going there to enjoy them for eternity.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Some will argue that Paul said to be absent from the body was to be present with the Lord. Well, thats not exactly what he said. But even if we take this statement as fact, there is still a resurrection and at that time believers will be restored to their bodies to recieve their reward. That reward will be here on earth. Jesus went to prepare a place, and He is going to bring that place with him. It is a city, the New Jerusalem.

 

I'm back.

Ruben, you say:

Millennial kingdom never mentioned anywhere throughout in the Old Testament books, during rich man's period. No way that he hears it, because premillennialism doctrine was not yet existed till 19th Century.

The rich man understoods heaven is a place where God lives, and he knew God is an eternality, have no beginning, no end. Obivously, in his mind, he desired to have eternal life after his death. When he heard rumour around Israel that Jesus teachings, do miracles, etc. So, he decided came to Jesus, and asked him, want to know what will do to enter have eternal life.

ALSO, there is no "purgatory" find anywhere in the Old Testament books in rich man's period. Even, also, no "purgatory" mentioned find anywhere in the New testament books either.

Purgatory was not in rich man's mind when he asked Christ. Because it was not yet existed doctrine till about 300 or 400 years later invented by Roman Catholic.

No question, a young ruler knew there is eternality destiny beyond death. Remember in the book of Job, he said, he KNEW there is eternal life beyond death, and he predicted Christ shall be risen from the death. He eagers looking forward Christ's resurrection, SO, he believed he shall have immortality body means shall never die again beyond his first death(physical).

Guessworks and logicals of temporary purgatory dfoctrine by being interpreting Scriptures is a dangerous.

Hold it, till after I quote from several members of this board, what they said to me include James Newman too.

Hope of Glory, you said:

Does this verse actually telling anything about millennial? Silence. Does this verse actually telling us anything about 'a thousand years'?

Luke 20:35-36 say: "But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neithercan they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the RESURRECTION."

Clear, Christ tells us, the next age to come(speak of his second coming), that they shall become into immortality, and have glorify body like Christ's, and be like angels, that they shall NEVER die again forever and ever. This is speak of eternality, not temporary.

Me4Him, you discuss about Jews and the Kingdom of God, this is speak of future millennial kingdom & the throne of David. Also, James Newman recently discuss about the same thing as what Me4Him discusses. I hold this till after I discuss these verses as what Me4Him said. Me4Him, you discuss of these verses to me. I know these verses well.

Matthew 13:44, Lk. 12:33, Mt. 6:21, Jas. 5:3, and Mt. 6:33; all of these do not suggest, these rewards or treasure from above are temporary.

Christ made a good point of Matt. 6:33. He tells us, we do not look on earthly things, we have to looking up above of heavenly, and eager looking forward for eternal life, because the worldy things shall be all passed away, because these are temporary. But the rewards and treasures are still store up in the heaven await for the faithful believers at Christ's coming. They shall inherit eternality blessings and shall reign with Christ on new earth for eternality. Because the rewards & treaures from above are perfect and never fade away, these are eternality. If you think these are temporary, then, therefore in the heaven is not perfect, and God is a sinner?

Me4Him, you said:

That does not make sense. I disagree with you. Does Christ actual saying the treasures in the heaven are temporary? If he saying it, then, therefore, heaven is not perfect, and Christ is a sinner? Huh?

JackRUS, you said:

Amen. I am 100% agree with you. I do have many books in my library. But Bible comes first before them. Because, the Bible is the final authority than all. I rather sticky with God's Word than all. Let you know, all books in my library are all have errors, no book is perfect. Only one book is perfect is Bible. I rather follow what God's Word saying than what books saying.

Also, you said:

Amen. I am 100% agree with you. we ought always pray to God or Holy Spirit for guidance us to understand God's Word before start to read & study. Understand, our mind and understanding are limited, and not same as what in God's mind. That why we are responsible to study God's Word carefully according to 2 Tim. 2:15.

You saying to me of Eph. 4:14. Well, we all have flesh. Many Christians easily sensitive argument each other while intepreting God's Word. Throughout past centuries, many theologians were argue each others.

I know Dr. Peter Ruckman well. I disrespect him, because of his bad attitude toward bChristians, even also include baptists too. He always criticize or attack them, by being calling bad things. I can notice his attitude shows of pride. He thinks he knows everything and smarter than other theologians, pastors, etc. But, himself divorced four times. That's ashamed for him, and bad testimony.

For myself, I have to be carefully while debate with each other on doctrines. I have to be humble and willing to listening as be fair with each other for feedback, not being shut my eyes off them.

I want to tell you of Joey Faust. I praise God that Rev. Faust truly fear of the Lord. No doubt, he loves the Lord so much. I am sure that he is faithfully serve the Lord, for being warning to his congregation about the judgement day & salvation too. I do believe that Rev. Faust is a truly saved, because he obey God with fear. I do believe that Rev. Faust is serious concerning of his congregation, include Christians of the world too. But, I have a right that I disagree with his teachings. Because he read commentatories too much, and he quoted of many past commentators' comments in his book lot. He have to be careful what he read and studying men's books. Not every books are 100% perfect, many books do have errors and misinterpreting God's Word. Why shall he believes and adopt almost everything from many authors comment on purgatory or millennial exclusion?

Every baptist pastors ought to be careful with their commentatories, books in their library. They should be aware of them do have errors. EVEN, also, pastors have to be careful when to research & study on the sites of commentatories. Because many of them have so many errors and misinterpretings.

I want to admit telling you, that my beliefs have many misleadings and misunderstanding throughout my life. Because I have been listening to pastors, teachers, commentators, and Christians, books, what they saying. I have to learn to put God's Word first of the priority than all. 2 Tim. 2:15 commands us, that we are responsiblity to study God's Word carefully.

At first, I was pretrib & premill, because of what I learned FROM people, not from the Bible. I thought they were right and truth. But, throughout years, the more I read and study Bible, I found many misunderstandings, even, twists what God's Word actual saying. That why, my beliefs have been changed throughout years because of God's Word caused me.

Nothing wrong with pastors & teachers, as what the Bible saying about them. We should listening and learning from them. BUT, we have to be careful what we listening them. The Holy Spirit is our best teacher, He knows everything, we better listen him. But, we cannot expecting to know everything the exactly what the Holy Spirit telling us. Because, 2 Tim. 2:15 commands us, that we are responsible to read and study God's Word carefully.

Also, I have to be careful, what I would saying toward Christians' names, pastors, teachers, commentators. Because I am not God. But, Christ tells us, we can judge their fruits according Matt. 7:15-20. Christ concerns of his sheep, that He does not want his sheep to be deceived (Matt. 24:24). No doubt, many Christians are already deceived today by being listening to pastors, teachers, T.V., radios, commentatories, books, internets, etc. think they are always right and truth. But so many are already misleading and deceived. Also, I fear that Christians are on the way to hell for being deceived by false teachers according to Matt. 7:13-20 & Matt. 24:24. That why, Christ warns us, that we MUST WATCH OUT for false teachers. There are so many false teachers out there today. We must sticky with God's Wortd, what it saying rather than listening to them according Colossians 2:8.

James Newman,

You mentioned about Jews and the kingdom. Premills emphasis that the millennial kingdom is for Israel only, in their teaching, that they mean it is for "Jews" only.

We have to understanding that, there is no no longer divided or separated between Jews and Gentiles. Because Christ already reconciled both Jews and Gentiles becaome one through Calvary in Ephesians 2:11-22 . So, therefore, both are God's family. Both share the same future eternality inherit of the kingdom. Because they have put their faith upon Jesus Christ only.

Also, Gentiles have the same covenant as God given it to Abraham, there are many seeds, but ONE seed which is through Jesus Christ. There is no difference between Jew & Gentile, both are same. They are on the same boat toward Jesus Christ - Galatians 3:14-29.

James, you show me of Matt. 5:12. I did read it, it says nothing about millennial or temporary. Christ does not saying that the rewards in the heaven are temporary, neither, it saying they are being fade away either.

Later this week, I will discuss about 1 Cor. 3:12-15. Because, verse 12 seems prove us, these are temporary. But, this passage talking about our works shall be test as our works shall be revealed or declared on the judgment day follow at Christ's coming.

James, you said:

Oh really? Does Christ actual saying it?

I agree with Rev. 22:12 tells us, that Christ promises us when He shall come again, He shall bring rewards with him, and give these to faithful believers. Right now, the rewards are store up in the heaven, await for the second advent, and then He shall bring them with him, and He shall reward to the faithful servants on new earth right after all tares/goats, unfaithful people cast away into everlatsing fire(Matt. 25:31-46).

The rewards are FOR faithful servants only. Therefore, these are eternality blessings, and Christ shall given them to rule or reign with him on new earth forever and ever.

Conclusion:

I agree with Faust, Whipple and others, that we must fear of the Lord, and warning to us about our future destiny at the judgement day, that we might be excluded from the kingdom. Yet, I strongly disagree with them, that they saying Christians shall suffer in the lake of fire for temporary time. That is sound like purgatory similar with catholic's teachings.

Matt. 25:30; Gal. 5:19-21; etc. do not saying, these are temporary, because these do not mentioned about millennium, or 'a thousand years'. either. But, these are clear showing us, that they shall be separated from God froever and ever. Matt. 25:30 tells us very clear that, all unfaithful servants shall be cast away into everlasting fire. This verse does not saying anything that a unfaithful servant shall be FINALLY be released out of the darkness beyond the judgement day.

Also, I want to telling you, I realized that the unconditional salvation or security salvation(so called, "Once Saved Always Saved" is actual dangerous doctrine. I am not attacking God's Word. I just disagree with men's teachins. Their teachings have much conflict with God's Word. Because there are so much overwhelming evidences, these are filled of warnings and conditionals. That we cannot neglect them. We must take heed what God's Word. And obey it.

Later this week, I will discuss more on salvation issue with verses.

Have a nice day! God bless you!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

As I explained above, most Christians are as ignorant of the OT as the Jews are about the NT.

"IF" the Mill reign is the "Eternal heaven", then "WHY" does it only last a 1000 years, and "WHY" would Satan be turned loose "IN HEAVEN" after the 1000 years were over???

And "WHY" would God wait a 1000 years before having the GWT Judgement???

"IF" the "NEW JERUSALEM" decended during the 1000 years, then "millions" of dead people from the fire that comes down out of heaven would be laying outside the gates, do you believe that???

Yes, we've discussed this before and I've showed you all the reasons "WHY" the 1000 years "ARE NOT" the beginning of "ETERNITY", because "EVIL PEOPLE" return to the earth after the 1000 years and "ATTACK" Jerusalem.

Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain=Kingdom) for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, (JESUS) which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest (Seventh day/Mill reign) shall be glorious.

Re 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

11 And I saw a great white throne,


Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning,

 

Friend, you persistently argue "Christ never mentioned 1000 years". That is completely irrelevant. Let me show you why...

William the Conqueror ruled England for 21 years. How many documents refer to this rule as the "21-year kingdom"? No document written during his reign calls it "the 21-year kingdom." Does that mean it didn't last 21 years? If people speak of "William the Conqueror's kingdom" or "William I 's kingdom" or "the Norman rule over England" does this mean they aren't speaking of a kingdom that lasted 21 years? Do I have to find a reference to "21 years" before I can say it is the same kingdom???

In the same way I don't need Jesus to say "1000 years" before I know he is talking about a kingdom that lasts that long. In fact, the length of that kingdom is apparently not very important - that's why the Bible waits until the end to tell us how long it will be. We premillenialists probably make its length sound like the most important thing by calling it "the millennial kingdom." We would be much better off, I think, calling it what the Bible calls it: "the kingdom of God"; or "the kingdom of heaven"; or the "kingdom" where "Messiah reigns" "on the throne of David". However, I think the reason we don't is simply because you a-millennialists don't believe in this kingdom, and we don't want poeple to think we mean what you mean by those terms.

As James has shown you, the Bible really does talk of that kingdom (and does so a lot) in both the New and Old testaments. The people knew it would last for an "age"; and "everlasting life" means exactly that - "life that lasts for the age". The fact that the rich young ruler may not have known how long that age lasted does not mean that he couldn't have been asking about that age.

You can repeat "Christ didn't mention 1000 years" all you like, but it is irrelevant as far as refuted our position goes.