Predestination

The predestination theory is a horrible affront to the grace of G-d. There is no deep concepts to study and look into or make up to come to this conclusion, as John Calvin had to do to give his heretical teachings a leg to stand on.
Who did Jesus die for on the cross? He died for the sins of ALL. Not for the few he had chosen. He took on the whole world's sin, because every single person in this world has the choice to come to HIM or not. To say otherwise is as bad as saying that salvation can be lost-one theory makes the atonement unnecessary and the other makes the blood sacrifice a lie. The only people I can understand falling for this absurdity would be the Jews who do not accept the New Testament or Jesus. The people who do accept Jesus have no other plea but 1. being new to Christianity and not having read the Word yet. 2. A false claimer of the faith out to lead others astray.
Of course, there will be times when we question our beliefs, as well there should be in order for us to grow, but on this doctrine it seems quite clear that a simple reminder of who Jesus died for should be sufficient.
Foreknowledge and predestination are totally different. We were given free will. To say we don't have it is to call G-d a liar.
Gina

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kathy:
Just for discussion sake, if we are predestined to accept Christ, then why should we bother witnessing? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kathy:

God has ordained the salvation of the elect, as well as the means of ingathering the elect.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Rom 10:13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” 14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

Chris, do you believe in predestination? That G-d just has us witness so they can figure out they've been 'specially selected so they can go tell others they were too? Or are you trying to say that not even the predestined people will get saved without us going and telling them? And if all this is true, what was the point of the death of atonement? Was it only for the pre-selected? And if we're pre-selected, that would mean the others were selected to burn in hell for eternity. Where is the grace of G-d in that?
If I misunderstand you, please correct me. It sounded like you believe in predestination.
Gina

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gina:
The predestination theory is a horrible affront to the grace of G-d. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gina, to deny God's gracious election is to deny God and his word.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Gen 12:1 Now the Lord had said to Abram:

“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Eph 1:3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,
10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth——in Him.
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Rom 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Rom 9:11(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."
14 ¶ What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!
15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Matt 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.” <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> John 10:1“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2“But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3“To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4“And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5“Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6Jesus used this illustration, but they did not understand the things which He spoke to them.
7Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8“All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9“I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10“The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly. 11“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12“But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13“The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 14“I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15“As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16“And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> John 15:16 “You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. 17“These things I command you, that you love one another.
18“If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19“If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And on, and on ...

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gina:
Chris, do you believe in predestination? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>That G-d just has us witness so they can figure out they've been 'specially selected so they can go tell others they were too? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

God has us witness in order to preach the glory of hsi grace, and to ingather the elect as they are effectually called by the Holy Spirit.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Or are you trying to say that not even the predestined people will get saved without us going and telling them? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Asssuredly, even the elect are sinners headed for hell until they are called and believe in Christ. However, that they will be called and believe is assured due to God's gracious election.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> And if all this is true, what was the point of the death of atonement? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As a substitutionary atonement for the elect of God.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Was it only for the pre-selected? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> And if we're pre-selected, that would mean the others were selected to burn in hell for eternity. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The election of teh elect is active, and the election of the reprobate is passive, by God choosing not to elect them.

Romans 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Where is the grace of G-d in that? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the gracious, unmerited election to salvation of some sinners, out of all, who deserve hell, and the righteous punishment od the rest. No one who is "innocent" goes to hell.

 

Chris, he was speaking in those last few verses to those already saved, and told them what their callings were. Does a person decide to be a pastor or does G-d? The person does. They heard G-d's call and answered it.
It has nothing to do with the pre-destination issue. Where in any of those verses does it speak of a limited atonement? Have you taken John 3:16 out of your Bible? And the many others that say who the atonement was for? In that case, take it a step further and deny Jesus as the Messiah, because he came to save the Jews and not you. You were second choice. That makes Jesus a respector of persons, and in that case why believe anything He said?
If one verse is a lie, they all are.
Gina

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gina:
Have you taken John 3:16 out of your Bible? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, but apparently you've taken a plethora of passages out of yours!

 

Let me direct your attention to an article I read a while back. It, in my opinion, has excellent insight into predestination as well as free will. It is found at the following: http://www.baptistpillar.com/bd0459.htm

Please take into account the editor's note:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Editor’s Note: Please realize we are not hyper-Calvinists. This is one of the best article we have ever found on predestination and free-will. Please read the complete article which is taken from the book entitled, Baptist Doctrines, 1892, by Rev. Richard Fuller, D. D. Late of Baltimore, MD<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


My favorite quote from the entire article is this:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The whole matter is reduced to this single question: Can God foreordain all things, and yet form an intelligent being who shall be a perfectly free, moral, accountable agent! And it is clearly preposterous for any finite mind to attempt to answer that question; for the decision demands omniscience. God only can solve that problem, and, as we have his solution, as he declares that he has peopled the earth with beings as free as if there were no decrees, our duty is plain. In this, as in other mysteries of Godliness, our speculations must cease, we must subject our "philosophy and vain deceit" to the decisions of Revelation. Reason must ascertain what God says, and then both faith and reason must acquiesce in humility and reverence.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sometimes we just have to admit, there are things of God, that we as humans will never understand until Christ comes again.

Dave

[ July 21, 2001: Message edited by: Dajuid ]

 

Dr. Bob, I haven't seen the other threads.
If I find a false teachng then yes, I try to throw it as far away from me as humanly possible. Even the ones I think would be nice. But predestination is one that just ain't pretty no matter how you look at it, and even if it were, it wouldn't matter. Prove John 3:16 wrong.
Who is in control? Of what? The world? Who is the father of this world? Who are we children of unless we get adopted? I'd say we are, and Satan, until we ask G-d for his control over our lives.
Gina

 

Chris, I don't know how to quote. On what you said about the elect assuredly being saved anyhow, despite what may happen. Sounds like G-d is running us around in cirles for no good reason. I feel sorry for you. According to your premise, nothing we do matters. It is pointless. G-d already decided our fates, and that's it. We are to run around witnessing even though it doesn't matter because somehow the elect will be saved no matter what. So we're all doing this to keep us occupied 'till Jesus comes? Does that really make sense to you?
You said "a substitutionary atonement for the elect." So you do believe in a limited atonement. That makes me very angry. How dare you call Jesus a liar! You are adding to the Bible with this belief. You are changing the atonement into something less than what it was and is. I put that in the same trash can as I put the Mormon belief that Mormons are better than others if they were born into a mormon family. False.
Gina

 

Then what is now hidden will not be hidden: when one of two infants is taken up by God's mercy and the other abandoned through God's judgment--and when the chosen one knows what would have been his just deserts in judgment--why was the one chosen rather than the other, when the condition of the two was the same? Or again, why were miracles not wrought in the presence of certain people who would have repented in the face of miraculous works, while miracles were wrought in the presence of those who were not about to believe. For our Lord saith most plainly: "Woe to you, Chorazin; woe to you, Bethsaida. For if in Tyre and Sidon had been wrought the miracles done in your midst, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes." (Matthew 11:21). Now, obviously, God did not act unjustly in not willing their salvation, even though they could have been saved, if he willed it so.

Nor should we doubt that God doth well, even when he alloweth whatever happens ill to happen. For he alloweth it only through a just judgment--and surely all that is just is good. Therefore, although evil, in so far as it is evil, is not good, still it is a good thing that not only good things exist but evil as well. For if it were not good that evil things exist, they would certainly not be allowed to exist by the Omnipotent Good, for whom it is undoubtedly as easy not to allow to exist what he does not will, as it is for him to do what he does will.

Unless we believe this, the very beginning of our Confession of Faith is imperiled--the sentence in which we profess to believe in God the Father Almighty. For he is called Almighty for no other reason than that he can do whatsoever he willeth and because the efficacy of his omnipotent will is not impeded by the will of any creature.

On Predestination
Chapters 24-28 from
Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love
by Augustine of Hippo

At http://www.planetkc.com/puritan/aug_Predestination.htm

 

Election
by Charles H. Spurgeon

Delivered September 2, 1855
at New Park Street Chapel


"But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14

If there were no other text in the sacred Word except this one, I think we should all be bound to receive and acknowledge the truthfulness of the great and glorious doctrine of God's ancient choice of his family. But there seems to be an inveterate prejudice in the human mind against this doctrine; and although most other doctrines will be received by professing Christians, some with caution, others with pleasure, yet this one seems to be most frequently disregarded and discarded. In many of our pulpits it would be reckoned a high sin and treason to preach a sermon upon election, because they could not make it what they call a "practical" discourse. I believe they have erred from the truth therein. Whatever God has revealed, he has revealed for a purpose. There is nothing in Scripture which may not, under the influence of God's Spirit, be turned into a practical discourse: for "all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable" for some purpose of spiritual usefulness. It is true, it may not be turned into a free-will discourse--that we know right well--but it can be turned into a practical free-grace discourse; and free-grace practice is the best practice, when the true doctrines of God's immutable love are brought to bear upon the hearts of saints and sinners. Now, I trust this morning some of you who are startled at the very sound of this word, will say, "I will give it a fair hearing; I will lay aside my prejudices; I will just hear what this man has to say." Do not shut your ears and say at once, "It is high doctrine." Who has authorized you to call it high or low? Why should you oppose yourself to God's doctrine? Remember what became of the children who found fault with God's prophet, and exclaimed, "Go up, thou bald-head; go up, thou bald-head." Say nothing against God's doctrines, lest haply some evil beast should come out of the forest and devour you also. There are other woes beside the open judgment of heaven--take heed that these fall not on your head. Lay aside your prejudices: listen calmly, listen dispassionately: hear what Scripture says; and when you receive the truth, if God should be pleased to reveal and manifest it to your souls, do not be ashamed to confess it. To confess you were wrong yesterday, is only to acknowledge that you are a little wiser to-day; and instead of being a reflection on yourself, it is an honour to your judgment, and shows that you are improving in the knowledge of the truth. Do not be ashamed to learn, and to cast aside your old doctrines and views, but to take up that which you may more plainly see to be in the Word of God. But if you do not see it to be here in the Bible, whatever I may say, or whatever authorities I may plead, I beseech you, as you love your souls, reject it; and if from this pulpit you ever hear things contrary to this Sacred Word, remember that the Bible must be the first, and God's minister must lie underneath it. We must not stand on the Bible to preach, but we must preach with the Bible above our heads. After all we have preached, we are well aware that the mountain of truth is higher than our eyes can discern; clouds and darkness are round about its summit, and we cannot discern its topmost pinnacle; yet we will try to preach it as well as we can. But since we are mortal, and liable to err, exercise your judgment; "Try the spirits whether they are of God"; and if on mature reflection on your bended knees, you are led to disregard election--a thing which I consider to be utterly impossible--then forsake it; do not hear it preached, but believe and confess whatever you see to be God's Word. I can say no more than that by way of exordium.

Now, first, I shall speak a little concerning the truthfulness of this doctrine: "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation." Secondly, I shall try to prove that this election is absolute: "He hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation," not for sanctification, but "through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." Thirdly, this election is eternal, because the text says, "God hath from the beginning chosen you." Fourthly, it is personal: "He hath chosen you." Then we will look at the effects of the doctrine--see what it does; and lastly, as God may enable us, we will try and look at its tendencies, and see whether it is indeed a terrible and licentious doctrine. We will take the flower, and like true bees, see whether there be any honey whatever in it; whether any good can come of it, or whether it is an unmixed, undiluted evil.
http://www.planetkc.com/puritan/chs_election.htm

 

Augustine and his wanna be,Calvin. Both very intelligent. No wonder so many were taken by their false teachings. Joseph Smith was no idiot either.
Gina

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gina:
Sounds like G-d is running us.. I feel sorry for you...According to your premise, nothing we do matters... It is pointless...We are to run around witnessing even though it doesn't matter... So we're all doing this to keep us occupied...Does that really make sense to you?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps that's your problem Gina...relying on what "makes sense" rather than the revealed word of God?

The London Confession of Baptist Faith, Chapter III

Of God's Decree

I. God hath decreed in Himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever come to pass;[1] yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established;[3] in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.[4]

1. Isa. 46:10; Eph. 1:11; Heb. 6:17; Rom. 9:15, 18
2. James 1:13; I John 1:5
3. Acts 4:27-28; John 19:11
4. Num. 23:19; Eph. 1:3-5

II. Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions,[5] yet hath He not decreed anything, because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.[6]

5. Acts 15:18
6. Rom. 9:11, 13, 16, 18

III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestined, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ,[7] to the praise of His glorious grace;[8] others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His glorious justice.[9]

7. I Tim. 5:21; Matt. 25:34
8. Eph. 1:5-6
9. Rom. 9:22-23; Jude 1:4

IV. These angels and men thus predestined and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.[10]

10. II Tim. 2:19; John 13:18

V. Those of mankind that are predestined to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of His mere free grace and love,[11]without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving Him thereunto.[12]

11. Eph. 1:4, 9, 11; Rom. 8:30; II Tim. 1:9; I Thess. 5:9
12. Rom. 9:13, 16; Eph. 2:5, 12

VI. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so He hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto;[13] wherefore they who are elect, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,[14] are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified,[15] and kept by His power through faith unto salvation;[16] neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.[17]

13. I Peter 1:2; II Thess. 2:13
14. I Thess. 5:9-10
15. Rom. 8:30; II Thess. 2:13
16. I Peter 1:5
17. John 10:26; 17:9; 6:64

VII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election;[18] so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise,[19]reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility,[20]diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.[21]

18. I Thess. 1:4-5; II Peter 1:10
19. Eph. 1:6; Rom. 11:33
20. Rom. 11:5-6, 20
21. Luke 10:20

 

Chris, I can go so far as to agreeing that some can be predestined for eternal life. Some, according to His will. Actually it's not going that far, because it's what the Bible says. But NOWHERE does it say that ANYONE, not ONE, is predestined to damnation for eternity. Not one of mankind.
It is not refusal to accept what I do not understand. If anything, grace is much harder to understand. It is the Word that teaches that every single human being on this earth may be saved. Every single person. In that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Not for the special ones he had chosen.
So it makes sense. How totally awful for you! I know a number of people (mostly seminary graduates) who seem to have the mistaken impression that if an uneducated person can understand it, it's not doctrine. Oh no. We must twist, turn, make it into a deep, mysterious concept that only the best educated can explain to the poor, weak minded masses, and we'll all be awed by the superior wisdom and intellect god has granted you. I spell it god because mine does not work that way.
Gina
(Boy, am I ever gonna feel like a donkey if I end up being wrong!)

 

Here I go again!
I'm thinking maybe I'm coming off too strong. I want you to understand why I feel so strongly on this.
If I find that this is true, my faith is gone. My religion is gone. I have three daughters. If I am to believe that I am saved, and have been chosen to be so, I must also believe in the possibility that one or more of my daughters has been predestined to hell. How can I choose or believe in a god who would do such a thing?
These are strong words, and I am fearful to speak them, but I want you to understand the seriousness of the doctrine you are teaching. If it is true, I will no longer want to be a Christian. How can any human being with children accept and love a god who would hand select their child before they are even born to spend eternity in the lake of fire? How?
Gina

 

I'm not so sure about Joseph Smith.

 

I'm just thinking out loud, Gina, and looking for a bit of clarification. Please feel free to correct me if I've mistated your position. You said that you believed that some have been predestined to eternal life. Based on Rom. 8:29ff, I would assume that you would say that these will certainly be saved (because God's predestination makes it certain that they will accept Him). Would you then say that those whom God did not predestinate are under the same obligation of salvation, "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." If they call on the Lord, they will be saved, no matter what becomes of the doctrine of election. God forces no man to reject Him, in fact, Rom. 1-3 teaches that every man will willingly reject God. The statement that "there is none righteous no not one. There is none that understandeth there is none that seeketh after God" is rather dogmatic. Therefore, Paul argues, that every man may be justly condemned, because he willingly rejected God. God did not choose men's damnation; man did (some Calvinists will disagree with that, but most will not).

To Calvinists, the doctrine of election is a gracious act of God to rescue some of these hell-bound sinners, in order to show His power and wisdom to all of His creation and as a gift to His beloved Son for His obedience.

I don't understand why the truthfulness of the doctrine of election would cause you to lose your faith. The Bible is true. All men who reject God are bound for hell. Therefore our only hope of salvation is to cling to God. We really are in no position to tell God what He can and cannot do. But, even if you reject the doctrine of election, you haven't solved anything. All men justly deserve hell. God created people, knowing that some would go to hell. God could save everybody (He could have made man in a way that he could not sin). So, whether you believe in election or not, God allows certain people to go to hell.

So, I guess the bottom line is that if a person accepts God, he WILL be saved, period. The flip side of this is that God has unconditionally chosen some to be saved. We may not be able to reconcile these two Scriptural teachings, but they are Scriptural nonetheless.