Predestination

Yes, G-d ALLOWS it to happen. The Bible does not say he decides it for them. What the others have stated is individual selection. My belief is we have two destinations to choose from. Heaven or hell. WE choose which one we go to when we decide to reject or accept Jesus. The whole world is predestined to these two places, and we are given the free will to accept or reject. What the others are saying is G-d has looked at me, my husband, and my three children, and decided for us which ones he will allow to accept Him. The rest can continue on their way to hell, no matter what happens nothing can change this.
Yes, all men justly deserve hell. But Jesus also made the atonement for all men. The explanation of predestination I have heard here rejects that and limits the atonement to some men. It does not allow people to choose to accept or reject the sacrifice of their own free will.
You don't understand how I could lose my faith? Would you care to set my three children down, look them in the eye, and tell them Jesus only picks a special number of people to be saved, so in all likelihood two of them or all will burn in hell for eternity, so there's really no point in life? Enjoy the few years you have left before you burn? That is NOT my God. If I was to find that was the truth, which I'm 99.9% sure it is not (nothing is 100%) how could there be any desire to serve him? What kind of love can a mother have for a G-d that would not give her children the option of accepting or rejecting him? No. I couldn't. Horrible things can happen, and they will be the fault of man's sin, but this? A god who damns his children before they exist? Hell was not originally created for us. The whole theory just doesn't hold up.
Gina

 

Forgot one little thing Mikeyahu. You said
G-d forces no one to reject him. So do you believe he simply doesn't let them accept him? It's the same thing. If they aren't allowed to accept him, they ARE forced to reject him.
Gina

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gina:
Chris, I can go so far as to agreeing that some can be predestined for eternal life. Some, according to His will. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That’s a good start. The Bible is clear that God is the one who is sovereign and not man, and that “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.” (John 6:44).

There are only three possibilities:

1. God elects no one. In that case then either no one is saved, or people are saved by their own authority. Both options are unbiblical. The Bible clearly says that some are saved, and that they are saved by grace, through faith. Salvation is all of God and none of man, and “it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.” (Rom 9:16).
2. God elects some. Out of the sheer goodness of God and his mercy on undeserved sinful wretches, dead in trespasses and sin, God chooses to regenerate some so that they will turn to him and be saved.
John 6:39 - “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
In His High Priestly prayer, Jesus prayed for the elect and not for all the world: “I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours” (John 17:9).
3. God elects all. This is also unbiblical, as all then would be saved and amounts to actual universalism.


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Actually it's not going that far, because it's what the Bible says. But NOWHERE does it say that ANYONE, not ONE, is predestined to damnation for eternity. Not one of mankind. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

God actively selects the elect, and passively chooses to not elect the reprobate. As to passages which teach reprobation:

John 17:12 “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.” In this passage Jesus is saying that the elect are kept by the Sovereign power of God, and the son of perdition, Judas, was not kept, so that he would fulfill prophecy and betray Christ. “Perdition” means destruction, loss, waste; in context it means one who was born to destruction. Judas was predetermined before he was created to be the vessel of betrayal. It was his fate, yet he chose to do so willfully.

Acts 2:23 says “this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.” The crucifixion of Christ was performed by the predetermined plan of God. At the right time, Christ died for sins. This means that all events, thoughts, ideas, choices, and actions of everyone which led up to this predetermined point in history was determined by God. Everyone who scoffed at Christ, beat him, and nailed him to the tree were born for that purpose. YET – and this is important – they did it all be personal choice. That is the mystery of Divine sovereignty.

Rom 9:17 says “For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” Pharaoh, who tormented Israel in Egypt, was born, created, for that very purpose, with never a hope of salvation, in order that God’s glory be proclaimed throughout the earth.

The undeniable truth is that God works his perfect will and moves the hearts of men and controls rivers as He will, all for the glory of his name.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> It is not refusal to accept what I do not understand. If anything, grace is much harder to understand. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Grace is the hardest thing to understand from a human perspective, because it is foreign to us. We cannot give it to each other, and we do not receive from others either. That is why we must accept it, and be thankful for it. to do less is to project our warped sinful view of right and wrong upon God.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> It is the Word that teaches that every single human being on this earth may be saved. Every single person. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nowhere does Scripture teach that. Where do you see that? Only those who turn to God in repentance through faith in Christ can be saved. And the only ones who will are those elected by God, to be plucked out of the mire of sin and destruction.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

Who in the heathen world had an opportunity to be saved when Abram was called out of Ur? No one. God mercifully chose Abram to be the vessel through which salvation would come to those who believe. Who living outside of Israel had a chance to believe in the God of Israel and be saved? No one, other than those who came to Israel and were God-fearers or proselytes. Salvation came through faith in the God of Israel. When God chose to go to the heathen, as in Jonah, then they had a chance, but only because God sovereignly chose to go to them and cause them to repent. Salvation is an act of God, not of man.

Have you ever thought of why you were born where and when you were, and not somewhere else? Why were you born where the gospel is preached, where the Bible is known, and not in deepest, darkest Unreached Nation? Because of God’s grace and election. Not because there is any merit in us, but because God glories in saving some for himself.

God loves God, more than he loves us. That’s a hard truth for most to learn. God’s purpose is to glorify Himself, not us. Because God loves God so immensely, we are the beneficiaries of God’s overflow of love, as he chooses us to come to know him and glorify him. And God’s purpose is to glorify Christ as the focus of salvation by preaching the gospel to every tribe, and tongue and people and nation (Rev 5:9). And by doing so, God is ingathering all the elect from every part of the world, to the praise and glory of his name.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> In that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Not for the special ones he had chosen. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Belief in particular atonement is not necessary to believe in election (though it is biblical). However, in the “us” passages, be sure to check who Paul or the writer is referring to. It is always in reference to “us” believers.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> So it makes sense. How totally awful for you! I know a number of people (mostly seminary graduates) who seem to have the mistaken impression that if an uneducated person can understand it, it's not doctrine. Oh no. We must twist, turn, make it into a deep, mysterious concept that only the best educated can explain to the poor, weak minded masses, and we'll all be awed by the superior wisdom and intellect god has granted you. I spell it god because mine does not work that way. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The ones who are twisting Scripture are those who deny God’s sovereignty and His ability and right to so what He will with his creation. It does not take training or intellect to readily read,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Rom 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means!
15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
16 So it depends not upon man’s will or exertion, but upon God’s mercy.
17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh, "I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth."
18 So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
20 But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me thus?"
21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use?
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction,
23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
25 As indeed he says in Hosea, "Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘my beloved.’"
26 "And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Paul then follows this with absolute praise:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?"
35 "Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?"
36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory for ever. Amen. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The doctrine of God’s merciful, loving, election causes a doxology of praise to emit from the pen of the apostle, because he understands that apart from it, no man would be saved, but with it, "every one who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved." (Rom 10:13).

[ July 23, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

 

Chris, give me until tomorrow night to answer that. Just didn't want you to think I do not wish to continue. I need to look up some stuff and today and tomorrow morning are very busy days for me. Thanks.
Gina

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gina:
Forgot one little thing Mikeyahu. You said
G-d forces no one to reject him. So do you believe he simply doesn't let them accept him? It's the same thing. If they aren't allowed to accept him, they ARE forced to reject him.
Gina<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gina:

You syllogism here is flawed:
1. IF God elects some to salvation.
2. and All are not saved.
3. THEN God prohibits some to be saved.

That is not the biblical case at all. This intimates that the situation is like the French Revolution, with the poor pounding at the gates of the palace to be fed, and Marie Antoinette saying “Let them eat cake”.

Rather, the situation is that no one seeks after God. Romans 3 says:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one."
13 "Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit"; "The poison of asps is under their lips";
14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness."
15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known."
18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The King goes to the palace gate with a banquet to share, but there are none there, and none who care. Indeed, when he approaches, they flee in derision, and mock his name. All people are totally depraved in their sin nature in that they cannot and will not turn to God in repentance to be saved. if God did not mercifully choose to elect some for salvation, by enabling their hearts to turn to him, none would be saved. This is exemplified in Mark 12:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 1 And he began to speak to them in parables. "A man planted a vineyard, and set a hedge around it, and dug a pit for the wine press, and built a tower, and let it out to tenants, and went into another country.
2 When the time came, he sent a servant to the tenants, to get from them some of the fruit of the vineyard.
3 And they took him and beat him, and sent him away empty-handed.
4 Again he sent to them another servant, and they wounded him in the head, and treated him shamefully.
5 And he sent another, and him they killed; and so with many others, some they beat and some they killed.
6 He had still one other, a beloved son; finally he sent him to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’
7 But those tenants said to one another, ‘This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’
8 And they took him and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard.
9 What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the tenants, and give the vineyard to others.
10 Have you not read this scripture: ‘The very stone which the builders rejected has become the head of the corner;
11 this was the Lord’s doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes’?" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

People in their depraved state hate God and the things of God; so much so that they even killed his Perfect Son. Only God can change the heart of the unregenerate, so that they may be able to turn and trust Christ for salvation.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gina:
Chris, give me until tomorrow night to answer that. Just didn't want you to think I do not wish to continue. I need to look up some stuff and today and tomorrow morning are very busy days for me. Thanks.
Gina<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No Problem. I would rather you think on these things than reply to hastily.

 

I’d like to comment on what Kathy had originally asked, concerning reason Calvinist
witness to the lost. (I am not a Calvinist)

Paul preached the Gospel. In fact He said of the Gospel: For I am not ashamed of
the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. What is the “Gospel”. In Scripture we find these things references to the Gospel:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>Gospel of the Kingdom - Matthew 4:23
Gospel of God - Romans 1:1
Gospel of His Son - Romans 1:9
Gospel of Christ - Romans 1:16
Gospel of Peace - Romans 10:15
Gospel of the uncircumcision - Gal 2:7
Gospel of the circumcision - Gal 2:7[/list]

Let’s think about the Gospel of God, Christ, Peace. What exactly does the word Gospel
mean?
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>2098 euaggelion (yoo-ang-ghel'-ee-on); from the same as 2097; a good message, i.e. the gospel: KJV-- gospel.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It means, Good message or Good news. What is the Gospel of Christ? Paul’s says it
includes all of the following:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1 Cor 15:3-4
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the
scriptures: (KJV)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So then Paul preached the Gospel that included the facts that Christ died, was buried and rose again. And to a lost person this is very good news. Its great news that we have had Jesus come to die for our sins, along with the wonderful good new of peace.

Now Paul made it clear:
Acts 20:27
27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
(KJV)

And he also made it clear that when He witnessed he:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1 Cor 2:1-5
And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.(KJV)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Predestination is a Biblical Doctrine, just not in the way Calvinist teach it. We are predestined IN HIM. (Jesus). But if the Calvinist truly believe God picked some and left the other’s to die in their sin, then God is withholding His grace to those lost people, no matter how you look at it, that is the way it is. Now this is the question, how do Calvinist really witness? Do you declare the whole council of God? Do you go one on one with someone who is being persuaded as in King Agrippa’s case...
Acts 26:28
28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
(KJV)
Then tell them about the grace of God, that is the irresistible grace of God and how God will either give it to you, or withhold it. And tell them about how Christ only died for just a few, for He chose only a few, and the odds are not in their favor. Would this then still be good news. I don’t think so.

With love,

Chet

2 Pet 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is
long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to
repentance.
(KJV)


1 Tim 2:4-6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ
Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
(KJV)


Ezek 33:11
11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of
the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil
ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
(KJV)

[ July 24, 2001: Message edited by: Chet ]

 

i've been away for a while......but i now have a computer at home....1.2gig 256mb ram 40gig hd........i'm not boasting just a bit proud


being one that believes in predestination and election.....i'd like to make a statement....and i say this in christian love and not to condem anyone. here goes!!

i have not read all the post for this but glanced through most of them on this thread.

from what i've seen, there is a misunderstanding of predestination and election. These two trueths are not the same!! election is God choosing a people before the foundation of the world (Rom 9:11; Rom 11:5,7,28; 1 Thess 1:4; 2 Pet 1:10)PREDESTINATION is just as Romans 8:29 says For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.........it is a "destination" if you will. God chose a people and those people He chose are sinners and their destination is to be conformed to the image of Christ.....by Christ, in Christ God did this also, see Eph 1:5 & 11.

again predestination is not the same as election........if we come to that understanding we will have better harmony and peace with the brethren!!!!

God bless you all!!
Chris (changed_like_saul)

 

"those that have eyes to see and ears to hear" .. John 3:16 is the invitation .. there are those that hear the truth and hear the truth and still refuse to accept. The "elect" .. christians .. are those that are chosen to stand before Satan in the last days to denounce him. Chosen to do Gods work. Prechosen. I don't believe that this means it is impossible for others to not accept the truth of Christ but it is unlikely. I agree .. some questions will not be answered until we stand before Christ.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by changed_like_saul:
being one that believes in predestination and election.....i'd like to make a statement....and i say this in christian love and not to condem anyone. here goes!!
predestination is not the same as election........<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In a technical sense, you are correct, though the effect is virtually the same.

Here from Easton's :


Election of Grace — The Scripture speaks (1) of the election of individuals to office or to honour and privilege, e.g., Abraham, Jacob, Saul, David, Solomon, were all chosen by God for the positions they held; so also were the apostles. (2) There is also an election of nations to special privileges, e.g., the Hebrews (Deut. 7:6; Rom. 9:4). (3) But in addition there is an election of individuals to eternal life (2 Thess. 2:13; Eph. 1:4; 1 Pet. 1:2; John 13:18).
The ground of this election to salvation is the good pleasure of God (Eph. 1:5, 11; Matt. 11:25, 26; John 15:16, 19). God claims the right so to do (Rom. 9:16, 21).
It is not conditioned on faith or repentance, but is of soverign grace (Rom. 11:4–6; Eph. 1:3–6). All that pertain to salvation, the means (Eph. 2:8; 2 Thess. 2:13) as well as the end, are of God (Acts 5:31; 2 Tim. 2:25; 1 Cor. 1:30; Eph. 2:5, 10). Faith and repentance and all other graces are the exercises of a regenerated soul; and regeneration is God’s work, a “new creature.”
Men are elected “to salvation,” “to the adoption of sons,” “to be holy and without blame before him in love” (2 Thess. 2:13; Gal. 4:4, 5; Eph. 1:4). The ultimate end of election is the praise of God’s grace (Eph. 1:6, 12).


Predestination — This word is properly used only with reference to God’s plan or purpose of salvation. The Greek word rendered “predestinate” is found only in these six passages, Acts 4:28; Rom. 8:29, 30; 1 Cor. 2:7; Eph. 1:5, 11; and in all of them it has the same meaning. They teach that the eternal, sovereign, immutable, and unconditional decree or “determinate purpose” of God governs all events.
This doctrine of predestination or election is beset with many difficulties. It belongs to the “secret things” of God. But if we take the revealed word of God as our guide, we must accept this doctrine with all its mysteriousness, and settle all our questionings in the humble, devout acknowledgment, “Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.”
For the teaching of Scripture on this subject let the following passages be examined in addition to those referred to above; Gen. 21:12; Ex. 9:16; 33:19; Deut. 10:15; 32:8; Josh. 11:20; 1 Sam. 12:22; 2 Chr. 6:6; Ps. 33:12; 65:4; 78:68; 135:4; Isa. 41:1–10; Jer. 1:5; Mark 13:20; Luke 22:22; John 6:37; 15:16; 17:2, 6, 9; Acts 2:28; 3:18; 4:28; 13:48; 17:26; Rom. 9:11, 18, 21; 11:5; Eph. 3:11; 1 Thess. 1:4; 2 Thess. 2:13; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2; 1 Pet. 1:2. (See DECREES OF GOD ; ELECTION.)
Hodge has well remarked that, “rightly understood, this doctrine (1) exalts the majesty and absolute sovereignty of God, while it illustrates the riches of his free grace and his just displeasure with sin. (2.) It enforces upon us the essential truth that salvation is entirely of grace. That no one can either complain if passed over, or boast himself if saved. (3.) It brings the inquirer to absolute self-despair and the cordial embrace of the free offer of Christ. (4.) In the case of the believer who has the witness in himself, this doctrine at once deepens his humility and elevates his confidence to the full assurance of hope” (Outlines).

 

I'm generally not a fan of quoting extra-biblical sources but I wanted to give a different viewpoint from what Chet expressed. Chet noted that election, as taught by Calvinists, is not good news. There is a book by Bennett Tyler entitled "Nettleton and His Labours" that I would urge anyone interested in the history of revivals to read (there is another book by a man named Thornbury, I believe, which is equally good on the life of Asahel Nettleton). Anyway the book shows what a radical change occurred from the revivals of the First and Second Great Awakening to Charles Finney and his aftermath. Nettleton is an evangelist who all should desire to study. Anyway, Tyler speaks of a particular encounter between Nettleton and a woman who was repulsed by the doctrine of election, as taught by Calvinists.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
A young female, who had been for some time in a state of religious anxiety, said to him [Asahel Nettleton]: "What do you think of the doctrine of Election? Some say it is true; and some say it is not true, and I do not know what to think of it." -- "And what do you wish to think of it?" said Nettleton. "I wish," said she, "to think that it is not true" -- "Suppose, then," said Dr. Nettleton, "that it is not true. The doctrine of repentance is true. You must repent or perish. Now if the doctrine of election is not true, what reason have you to believe you ever shall repent?" After a moment's reflection, she replied: "If the doctrine of election is not true, I never shall repent." Her eyes were then opened upon her true condition. Every refuge failed her. She saw that she was entirely dependent on the sovereign grace of God; and, there is reason to believe, she was soon brought out of darkness into God's marvellous light.
&gt;&gt;&gt;
So, from a Calvinist's perspective, the doctrine of election is the very best of news for without it, there is NONE that seeketh after God.

 

Mikayehu,

I made the gospel tracts for our Church about a year ago. The front of them said, "Jesus Is The Only Hope". Now if your position were true, then that would be a great tract only to those who are elect still in their depraved state, Jesus would be the only hope. But to those who are in the same state of being depraved and are not elected... then I should make a tract that says "There Is No Hope". Inside of it I would say that I have some good news, but its not for you, because our loving Father chose not to elect you.

But the Bible does teach that it is good news for everyone, for Christ died for everyone. There is hope to a lost and hurting world, and His name is Jesus. The difference is this Mikayehu, I believe in depravity, in fact I am going to preach on it this Sunday. But I don't believe in "T" depravity.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>Bible: Corruption of Good
Calvinist: Destruction of Good

Bible: Effects of Sin are Extensive
Calvinist: Effects of Sin are Intensive

Bible: Born With Propensity to Sin
Calvinist: Born with Necessity to Sin

Bible: Human Will Is Diminished
Calvinist: Human Will Is Destroyed[/list]

With love,

Chet

[ July 25, 2001: Message edited by: Chet ]

 

Election . . . predestination . . . free will of man . . . omniscience of God . . ?

About the only thing harder to understand is the trinity and KJVonlyers!

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." (Jer 1:5 NIV)

your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. (Psa 139:16 NIV)

Now how could everything about us be written in God's "book" before we were born, and us still have a free will to make choices, good or bad in life? The ONLY way is that God transcends time to observe all of our earthly life, observes the choices we make, transcends time back to before the creation of the world and "authors" the "Book of Life."

That satisfies "election" and "predestination" because God has chosen us before we ever were. It satisfies the "free will of man" since we can choose to obey God or choose to disobey Him (God obviously didn't want "man" to be some robot who did exactly what he was programmed to do. God wanted us to want to love Him, not have to!). It satisfies "omniscience of God" as anyone who can transcend time would be "all knowing."

If this is all true, how should we approach witnessing? I think the parable that teaches this is Matt 13 beginning in verse 24. Believers are to "take care of ALL the crop," the wheat and the tares. We cannot judge the heart of man (in our present state, although we will judge the condemned in our glorified state) so we are to leave the reaping up to the reapers (God's angels):

And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (Mat 24:31 NIV)

Only God foreknows whether or not each person will make Him Lord, or reject Him. But, we are to nurture (feed the Word to) the whole crop.

 

I am not finding any scripture to back myself up. Anything I find can be turned around to mean only the saved. Like in Isaiah, where it says "the Lord has laid upon Him the iniquity of us all". It will be said he was speaking to the saved. You can say that about all the verses.
So I'll say it means everyone, you'll say it means only the saved. I'm not getting anywhere here, except a little more unsure of my beliefs.
I'm going to watch this conversation continue, and continue my own studying, using the Bible and any points the rest of you bring up here. Hopefully you guys will keep it going, but there would be no point in my being actively involved. If I have a question I'll jump in and ask.
Gina

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chet:
Mikayehu,

... then I should make a tract that says "There Is No Hope". Inside of it I would say that I have some good news, but its not for you, because our loving Father chose not to elect you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How do you know who God has chosen and what methods He will use to facilitate their salvation? The Bible commands us to spread the gospel but it does not guarantee what success we will have. As far as I know, Calvinists are not weak on evangelism. Some people will hear and not believe-Romans 1:21-23- while others will never hear God's special revelation but be condemned by their rebellion against the general revelation of God- Romans 1:18-20, Romans 2:12-15.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
But the Bible does teach that it is good news for everyone, for Christ died for everyone. There is hope to a lost and hurting world, and His name is Jesus. The difference is this Mikayehu, I believe in depravity, in fact I am going to preach on it this Sunday. But I don't believe in "T" depravity. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you have scripture to support the notion that anyone is only partially or incompletely depraved? Or scripture that says man is somewhat good without the influence of God?
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>Bible: Corruption of Good
Calvinist: Destruction of Good

Bible: Effects of Sin are Extensive
Calvinist: Effects of Sin are Intensive

Bible: Born With Propensity to Sin
Calvinist: Born with Necessity to Sin

Bible: Human Will Is Diminished
Calvinist: Human Will Is Destroyed[/list]

With love,

Chet

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To be honest, this list is rather offensive. You disagree with Calvinists and then proceed to put words in our mouths...good has not been destroyed but man is devoid of good, Romans 3:10...man is born with a sin nature that manifests itself in a child before they are accountable so while "necessity" is a poor word choice, "All have sinned"- not MAY sin (propensity) but HAVE sinned (fact of record)... human will is not destroyed but decided- we have not chosen Him but He has chosen us- if we possessed the goodness to choose Him then we would have made the sovereign choice which accomplished our salvation. Left to our own will alone, none of us would choose God.

To God be the glory, great things He hath done.

 

I have something to say and I promise it will be brief. The doctrine of election is real. There is nothing wrong with the doctrine, the problem is the same as with the old test. The problem is in the interpretation not the wording. I pray that you will gain the wisdom to understand this doctrine so that your mind will be at ease.

 

Just some notes, Chet. I really disagree with little you said in your last post. Jesus is the only hope for every individual man. If they accept Him they will be saved. If they reject Him they will be lost. That is "good news" for the whole world. Every single man could have been condemned but God offers salvation to all, but man must believe.

Surely you can see that your question about how I would witness is pointless. I obviously don't know who's elect, and frankly, even if a person were elect, if he did not believe (I don't believe this could happen), he would be lost. All men must believe in Christ or perish. My invitation is not "you must find out if you're elect" but "come to Christ and live." If they come, they will be saved, period, whether they are elect or not (I speak as a man).

The problem is that none seek after God. All men, everywhere, reject God. Scripture could not be more clear on this point. There is no greater proof that man's heart is "desperately wicked" than the fact of that universal rejection. So, I say with the woman I noted in my previous post, that save for the gracious election of God, I would never have repented. I don't have a certificate saying I'm elect, but I know I am because I willingly came to Christ, and that was not within my flesh to do.

 

Quoted
[The problem is that none seek after God. All men, everywhere, reject God. Scripture could not be more clear on this point.]
Yes but, The words of God bring men to him.Rom 10:17 " So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
Therefore man does not seek God but, God seeks men through his words.
Now lets get to the real issue. I was thinking about predestination the other day and God brought this verse back to me. Rev 3:20 "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: If any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and sup with him, and he with me."
1. Jesus knocks at the door, not breaks it down.
2. All men have Jesus knock at the door John 12:32 " I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me" (also John 3:16)
3. You must open the door on your own will before God comes in. (I love these little faces)

 

I disagree with nothing you said Preacher boy. I think I made it abundantly clear in my posts, that man must willingly repent or perish. You quoted Rom. 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." But, of course, not every one who hears the Word exercises faith, so we're still left with, what causes one man to believe and another not to? Something inherent within man? That's what the Romans passage I quoted explicitly denies. So we're back to "no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father" and "all that the Father gives Me shall come to Me."