Predestination

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mikayehu:
I disagree with nothing you said Preacher boy. I think I made it abundantly clear in my posts, that man must willingly repent or perish. You quoted Rom. 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." But, of course, not every one who hears the Word exercises faith, so we're still left with, what causes one man to believe and another not to? Something inherent within man? That's what the Romans passage I quoted explicitly denies. So we're back to "no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father" and "all that the Father gives Me shall come to Me."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And of course, everyone does not hear. But ALL the elect ALWAYS hear, and come to faith!

What a glorious confidence with which we can approach missions - knowing that no matter where or how far we go, God has prepared a people for himself out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, who will hear and will believe!

 

Rev 3:20 "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: If any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and sup with him, and he with me."

Maybe you did not get my point. Jesus gives us a free will whether we will accept him or not. "and open the door" Jesus does not make us choose him he gives us a choice. John 12:32 " I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me"

"will draw all men unto me" (This would mean salvation is offered to everyone)

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kathy:
If I understand you correctly, then everything falls into place and I'm getting that "OHHHHH" in my head like I did when I heard John MacArthur!
Kathy
&lt;&gt;&lt;<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kathy:

Everything doesn't fall into place because God has seen the movie, but rather because God has written the script and directed the cast.

 

Kathy,

Sounds like you see the light!

Chris,

Sounds like you don't!

Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?' (Ezek 33:11 NIV)

If God "has written the script and directed the cast," and let's say I happened to be one of the unlucky ones "cast" to be wicked and reject God and suffer eternal damnation, then how could a righteous loving God say He would rather that (I) turn from (my) ways and live," if it is impossible for me to do so, and then condemn me? If there is no "free will" in accepting or rejecting God's gift of salvation, then righteousness is not part of the process!

[ July 28, 2001: Message edited by: wellsjs ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wellsjs:

Chris,

Sounds like you don't!

Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?' (Ezek 33:11 NIV)

If God "has written the script and directed the cast," and let's say I happened to be one of the unlucky ones "cast" to be wicked and reject God and suffer eternal damnation, then how could a righteous loving God say He would rather that (I) turn from (my) ways and live," if it is impossible for me to do so, and then condemn me? If there is no "free will" in accepting or rejecting God's gift of salvation, then righteousness is not part of the process!

[ July 28, 2001: Message edited by: wellsjs ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Psalm 33:8 Let all the earth fear the Lord;
Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him.
9 For He spoke, and it was done;
He commanded, and it stood fast.
10 The Lord nullifies the counsel of the nations;
He frustrates the plans of the peoples.
11 The counsel of the Lord stands forever,
The plans of His heart from generation to generation.
12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord,
The people whom He has chosen for His own inheritance. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Acts 2:23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Luck" has nothing to do with it. But grace does.

We are all born headed to hell. God graciously chooses for His own name's sake to save some who rightly deserve Hell. In order to do so He punished the only sinless, innocent man who ever lived - Jesus Christ - in our place. If that's not righteousness and love, I don't know what is.

The elect are not snatched from hell kicking and screaming "Don't save me, don't save me!" but are rather enabled by God to respond to the gospel, and sing "Amazing love, how can it be? That Thou my God should die for me?"

The reprobate, who hate and despise God, choose their own destruction, and God chooses not to elect them.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

Chris,

You never answer my questions! In another thread I asked you to defend your belief that we are in the millennial kingdom now by asking you where is Christ, who is supposed to be physically with us, and why isn't Satan bound up (to which you said he was on a long chain - that's hillarious). Now you dodge the issue again.

Let me state it plainly: I believe that God gives man the free will to choose or reject Him, and that election and predestination are based on God's omniscience of knowing who will make the proper choices with that free will. You have opposed that. Pleasssseeee explain!

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wellsjs:
Chris,

You never answer my questions! In another thread I asked you to defend your belief that we are in the millennial kingdom now by asking you where is Christ, who is supposed to be physically with us, and why isn't Satan bound up (to which you said he was on a long chain - that's hillarious). Now you dodge the issue again.

Let me state it plainly: I believe that God gives man the free will to choose or reject Him, and that election and predestination are based on God's omniscience of knowing who will make the proper choices with that free will. You have opposed that. Pleasssseeee explain!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We're not even discussing the millennium here, so I don't know what's set you off on that. If you want to understand historic amillennialism, email me and I'll send you a 20 page seminary paper I've written on it.

As to "election and predestination [being]based on God's omniscience of knowing who will make the proper choices with that free will", that is pure Arminianism and Semi-Pelagianism.

If election and predestination are based on foreseeing what "free-will" creatures will do, then man is sovereign and God is not. God must sit and wait in heaven, wringing his hands, to see if man will do what God wishes him to do.

Suppose Abram never decided to leave Ur? Suppose Joseph was not sold into slavery into Egypt? Suppose Moses said, no way am I going back to Egypt? Suppose the leaders of Jerusalem and Rome did not choose to crucify Christ? There would be no redemption.

Aside from the problems mentioned above, it really does not solve the problem for the Arminian, for if God looks down through the corridors of time and knows what man will do, then the future is assuredly as fixed as when God sets it, for God will know what will come to pass, and if He knows it will come to pass, nothing can change it from occurring, not even the will of man: See the problem?

The biggest problem in not believing in a God who is absolutely the Sovereign Ruler, who is the Potter and we are the clay, is that it is a belief in a self-created God and not the God of the Bible. And such a God who waits to see what man will do is more akin to Greek or Roman mythology, rather than Inspired Scripture.

Lastly, every person I know who is confused over this issue has an unbiblical defintion of foreknowledge. Yes, God knows all things beforehand, but that is because He is sovereign, not becase he is a divine Watcher. Foreknowledge actually means "to know before" in an intimate sense, as Adam knew Eve his wife. It means a loving, intimate relationship between God and His elect, whom he knew and loved long before He ever created them.

In that sense, foreknowledge is the basis of God's electing love.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Isa 44:23 Sing, O heavens, for the LORD has done it; shout, O depths of the earth; break forth into singing, O mountains, O forest, and every tree in it! For the LORD has redeemed Jacob, and will be glorified in Israel.
24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who made all things, who stretched out the heavens alone, who spread out the earth—Who was with me?—
25 who frustrates the omens of liars, and makes fools of diviners; who turns wise men back, and makes their knowledge foolish;
26 who confirms the word of his servant, and performs the counsel of his messengers; who says of Jerusalem, ‘She shall be inhabited,’ and of the cities of Judah, ‘They shall be built, and I will raise up their ruins’;
27 who says to the deep, ‘Be dry, I will dry up your rivers’;
28 who says of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd, and he shall fulfil all my purpose’; saying of Jerusalem, ‘She shall be built,’ and of the temple, ‘Your foundation shall be laid.’"
1 ¶ Thus says the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped, to subdue nations before him and ungird the loins of kings, to open doors before him that gates may not be closed:
2 "I will go before you and level the mountains, I will break in pieces the doors of bronze and cut asunder the bars of iron,
3 I will give you the treasures of darkness and the hoards in secret places, that you may know that it is I, the LORD, the God of Israel, who call you by your name.
4 For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I call you by your name, I surname you, though you do not know me.
5 ¶ I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I gird you, though you do not know me,
6 that men may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.
7 I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe, I am the LORD, who do all these things.
8 "Shower, O heavens, from above, and let the skies rain down righteousness; let the earth open, that salvation may sprout forth, and let it cause righteousness to spring up also; I the LORD have created it.
9 "Woe to him who strives with his Maker, an earthen vessel with the potter! Does the clay say to him who fashions it, ‘What are you making’? or ‘Your work has no handles’?
10 Woe to him who says to a father, ‘What are you begetting?’ or to a woman, ‘With what are you in travail?’"
11 ¶ Thus says the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker: "Will you question me about my children, or command me concerning the work of my hands?
12 I made the earth, and created man upon it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host.
13 I have aroused him in righteousness, and I will make straight all his ways; he shall build my city and set my exiles free, not for price or reward," says the LORD of hosts.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

What is Pelagianism?
Gina

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wellsjs:
... election and predestination are based on God's omniscience of knowing who will make the proper choices with that free will. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If God knows they are going to "make proper choices with that free will" what do predestination and election actually do? Your position makes it a wasted act since it is already going to happen anyway. Predestination and election in the Bible have a purpose and an outcome; they are not merely "after the fact" declarations.

 

Pastor Larry and Chris,

Would you agree that God created man for the purpose of loving Him?

If that is the case then what kind of love is it if we don't have a choice in the matter? "I love God because God elected me to love Him and made my heart desire to love Him, and not because I choose to love Him with my heart." Is that what you're saying?

Now the Bible says, "This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. (1 John 4:10 NIV) and But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD." (Josh 24:15 NIV) John 3:16 says who will not perish? Anyone who [chooses to] believes.
<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>I believe God is sovereign<LI>I believe in the principle of election<LI>I believe in the principle of predestination
<LI>But I also believe that a person must make a choice, and that God leaves that choice up to the individual and doesn't make it for him/her.[/list]That makes all of this about as easy to comprehend as the trinity!

[ July 28, 2001: Message edited by: wellsjs ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wellsjs:
Pastor Larry and Chris,

Would you agree that God created man for the purpose of loving Him? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. I would say that God created man for the purpose of glorifying His name.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> If that is the case then what kind of love is it if we don't have a choice in the matter? "I love God because God elected me to love Him and made my heart desire to love Him, and not because I choose to love Him with my heart." Is that what you're saying? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. You are committing here the classic fau paux of Arminianism; the misbelief that Reformed theology teaches no choice of God's creatures. Rather, all people are enslaved to sin; they cannot do right, they cannot choose God because they are dead in their sin. They can only choose what their nature allows. Like pigs who love slop, the unregenerate love their slop (sin) which they are born in. Each and every decision is based on what will make themselves happy, and they have no thought or concern about God.

In God's electing mercy and love, He chooses to regenerate some so that they are able to freely choose Christ when the gospel is presented to them. The gospel is made irresistible through God's grace and the elect will be effectually called to Him.

The reprobate will not respond to the call of God for they despise God and the things of God. God in His righteousness chooses to pass them over, leaving them in their own chosen condition.

 

Chris,

Well, I have to say that I've come to see the light and agree with your line of reasoning on this!

These verses confirm what you shared in your last reply:

This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim 2:3-4 NIV)

John MacArthur says of the above passage: "There is a distinction between God’s desire and His eternal saving purpose, which must transcend His desires. God does not want men to sin. He hates sin with all His being (Pss. 5:4; 45:7); thus, He hates its consequences—eternal wickedness in hell. God does not want people to remain wicked forever in eternal remorse and hatred of Himself. Yet, God, for His own glory, and to manifest that glory in wrath, chose to endure “vessels … prepared for destruction” for the supreme fulfillment of His will (Rom. 9:22). In His eternal purpose, He chose only the elect out of the world (John 17:6) and passed over the rest, leaving them to the consequences of their sin, unbelief, and rejection of Christ (cf. Rom. 1:18–32). Ultimately, God’s choices are determined by His sovereign, eternal purpose, not His desires."

Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-- (Rom 9:21-23 NIV)

That did it! Now about Satan being bound but on a long chain . . .

Thank you Chris!

[ July 28, 2001: Message edited by: wellsjs ]

 

Good answer Chris. Save me the trouble of thinking through a response. My only question is how can someone who understands Scripture so well on soteriology be so far off on eschatology????

 

Hey, I just learned how to spell eschato . . . oh well, last week!

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Good answer Chris. Save me the trouble of thinking through a response. My only question is how can someone who understands Scripture so well on soteriology be so far off on eschatology???? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny... I was going to ask you the same thing!

 

Chris and Larry,
When it comes to eschatology, I think there is room for more speculation than fact. You have certainly helped me understand "election/pre-destination" better, for which I am grateful. I still have many unanswered questions because I believe God made us "free-willed creatures." The "vessels of wrath" along with the "potter" having the right to choose to make different "vessels" certainly is convencing. I plan to study and pray about this more.

I am also still a pre-trib rapture believer, but as stated in a previous post, if I should be wrong and find myself in the midst of the tribulation trials, I'll just get excited because I'll know I have less than seven years until I'm "present with the Lord!"

I think whether one is pre/mid/post trib, millennial/amillennial, we all should be on watch for and anxiously anticipating Jesus' return, because He will come "as a thief in the night, when we least expect it!"

 

wellsjs:

Thank you for your teachable and open spirit, a commodity sometimes lacking on this BB!

 

Chris, as long as you're in the teaching mood, dare I repeat myself without sounding like an idiot and ask once again "What is Plagblahblah....see what happens when I try to be witty? My brain melts.
I'm sure you know what I mean.
Gin