Predestination

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gina:
Chris, as long as you're in the teaching mood, dare I repeat myself without sounding like an idiot and ask once again "What is Plagblahblah....see what happens when I try to be witty? My brain melts.
I'm sure you know what I mean.
Gin<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gina:

Sorry for the slow reply. Sometimes I miss the flow of threads in their updates.

Here is a short synopsis (http://www.encyclopedia.com/printablenew/36052.html)
**************************
Pelagianism:
Pelagianism
plajnizm , Christian heretical sect that rose in the 5th cent. challenging St. Augustine's conceptions of grace and predestination. The doctrine was advanced by the celebrated monk and theologian Pelagius (c.355-c.425).
He was probably born in Britain. After studying Roman law and rhetoric and later theology in England and Rome, he preached in Africa and Palestine, attracting able followers, such as Celestius and Julian of Eclannum.

Pelagius thought that St. Augustine was excessively pessimistic in his view that humanity is sinful by nature and
must rely totally upon grace for salvation. Instead Pelagius taught that human beings have a natural capacity to reject evil and seek God, that Christ's admonition, "Be ye perfect, presupposes this capacity, and that grace is the natural ability given by God to seek and to serve God. Pelagius rejected the doctrine of original sin; he taught that children are born innocent of the sin of Adam. Baptism, accordingly, ceased to be interpreted as a regenerative sacrament. Pelagius challenged the very function of the church, claiming that the law as well as the
gospel can lead one to heaven and that pagans had been able to enter heaven by virtue of their moral actions before the coming of Christ. The church fought Pelagianism from the time that Celestius was denied ordination
in 411. In 415, Augustine warned St. Jerome in Palestine that Pelagius was propagating a dangerous heresy there, and Jerome acted to prevent its spread in the East. Pelagianism was condemned by East and West at
the Council of Ephesus (431). A compromise doctrine, Semi-Pelagianism, became popular in the 5th and 6th cent. in France, Britain, and Ireland. Semi-Pelagians taught that although grace was necessary for salvation, men could, apart from grace, desire the gift of salvation, and that they could, of themselves, freely accept and persevere in grace. Semi-Pelagians also rejected the Augustinian doctrine of predestination and held that God willed the salvation of all men equally. At the instance of St. Caesarius of Arles, Semi-Pelagianism was condemned at the Council of Orange (529). By the end of the 6th cent., Pelagianism disappeared as an
organized heresy, but the questions of free will, predestination, and grace raised by Pelagianism have been the subject of theological controversy ever since (see Molina, Luis; Arminius, Jacobus). Pelagius' Expositions of Thirteen Epistles of St. Paul was edited in English by Alexander Souter (3 vol., 1922-31).

(Interestingly, despite claiming Augustine as a Father of Roman Catholicism, the Catholic church has been totally semi-pelagian for centuries, and continues to hold to that position.)

See J. E. Chisholm, The Pseudo-Augustinian Hypomnesticon against the Pelagians and Celestinans (Vol. I,
1967); J. Pelikan, The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition (1971).

An excellent and technical article by A.A. Hodge is found at http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/full.asp?ID=605 , called Outlines of Theology: Pelagianism, Semi-Pelagianism & Augustinianism

[ July 29, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

[ July 29, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

 

Sounds like Augustine and Pelagius were both opposite extremes, with truth in the middle. It's starting to make sense, be it only to me.
Gina

 

Either black or white? If the absence of color reflects light, which is G-d, who is truth, maybe I'm not so far off base.
Why are we commanded to seek if we can't? You know that argument about those in the deepest jungles that haven't been reached? What is the argument for them going to hell if they aren't saved? It's that even nature teaches that there is a G-d. Even if nobody tells him, a man will know. How do you explain it? His heart doesn't have any natural seeking whatsoever?
It seems just as easy that I could use the black and white viewpoint of "what part of Jesus died for whosoever will don't you understand" too.
I'm still reading more about Augustine. Still haven't read anything better. But I have more resources now so who knows. Still sounds like a pretty messed up person.
Gina

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I could use the black and white viewpoint of "what part of Jesus died for whosoever will don't you understand" too. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am a died-in-the-wool biblicist which means I believe that man is totally depraved and that election is a doctrine of unilateral choice on God's part.

I fully believe that "whosoever will" may come. Every true Calvinist does. What we understand is that man's will to come comes from God. It is God who is at work in us to will and to do according to his good pleasure (Phil 2:13). No one will come unless God changes the will.

"Whosoever will" is completely consistent with biblical soteriology which has taken the contemporary name of Calvinism.

[ August 12, 2001: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

I quit. I utterly, completely, totally am incapable of that viewpoint.
So where does that leave me? Is it possible for someone to believe that they can come to Christ on their own free will for salvation? If they do are they truly saved? Or must they believe that G-d reeled them in? For those of you who remember my testimony, if there was any pulling being done it was by Satan. Luckily in the end I ran for dear life. And that's my point. I ran straight to Him. And I wasn't being pulled on a string. I swear.
I did try to believe it. I am currently following another person's work on the subject on a different message board. He is the only person in this world I know of that believes in everything the same way I do yet still believes in pre-destination like you guys do, so maybe I'll be able to relate more to him. So I guess I can't entirely quit. It's just so frustrating!
Gina

 

As to what power led to you believe is to me irrelevent. All we can do is our best. Who gave the original push into the direction we go really doesn't matter. All we can do is His will, we could never do more and should never wish to do less.

I believe we can all agree that without God (Father, Son and Holy Ghost) we are nothing, what we do is meaningless. All is to His glory. Exactly how he does it is beyond anyone's comprehension.

Although it is fun to debate the issue, isn't it?

 

Gina:

Please read B.B. Warfield at http://www.banneroftruth.co.uk/articles/what_is_calvinism.htm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gina:
I quit. I utterly, completely, totally am incapable of that viewpoint.
So where does that leave me? Is it possible for someone to believe that they can come to Christ on their own free will for salvation? If they do are they truly saved? Or must they believe that G-d reeled them in? For those of you who remember my testimony, if there was any pulling being done it was by Satan. Luckily in the end I ran for dear life. And that's my point. I ran straight to Him. And I wasn't being pulled on a string. I swear.
I did try to believe it. I am currently following another person's work on the subject on a different message board. He is the only person in this world I know of that believes in everything the same way I do yet still believes in pre-destination like you guys do, so maybe I'll be able to relate more to him. So I guess I can't entirely quit. It's just so frustrating!
Gina<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

Gina,

Let me give it a shot:

For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake. (1 Th 1:4-5 NIV)

Man’s will participates in response to God’s promptings as Paul makes clear when he says the Thessalonians received the Word. Two or more unsaved people may hear the same message of the gospel, but the power of the Holy Spirit comes upon only whom God chooses, and they are convicted.

Did you ever hear a powerful convicting sermon and say to yourself, “How could anybody hear that and not respond to God's call?” But the truth of the matter is, a number of unsaved people probably walked out the doors of your church that very day, unsaved and untouched by the message, because:

The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (2 Cor 4:4 NIV)

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. (John 6:37 NIV) "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44 NIV)

The combination of v. 37a and v. 44 indicate that the divine drawing activity which Jesus referred to cannot be reduced to what theologians call “prevenient grace,” i.e., that somehow the power to come to Christ is allegedly dispensed to all of mankind, thus enabling everyone to accept or reject the gospel according to their own will alone. Scripture indicates that no “free will” exists in man’s nature, for man is enslaved to sin (total depravity) and unable to believe apart from God’s empowerment (Rom. 3:1–19; Eph. 2:1–3; 2 Cor. 4:4; 2 Tim. 1:9).

It is God who saved us and chose us to live a holy life. He did this not because we deserved it, but because that was his plan long before the world began--to show his love and kindness to us through Christ Jesus. (2 Tim 1:9 NLT)

I hope this has helped. Here is a thorough list of scriptures on election for further amplification:

Of Christ, as Messiah. Is 42:1; 1 Pet 2:6.
Of good angels. 1 Tim 5:21.
Of Israel. Deut 7:6; Is 45:5.
Of ministers. Luke 6:13; Acts 9:15.
Of churches. 1 Pet 5:13.
Of saints, is
Of God. 1 Thess 1:4; Titus 1:1.
By Christ. John 13:18; 15:16.
In Christ. Eph 1:4.
Personal. Matt 20:16; John 6:44; Acts 22:14; 2 John 13.
According to the purpose of God. Rom 9:11; Eph 1:11.
According to the foreknowledge of God. Rom 8:29; 1 Pet 1:2.
Eternal. Eph 1:4.
Sovereign. Rom 9:15,16; 1 Cor 1:27; Eph 1:11.
Irrespective of merit. Rom 9:11.
Of grace. Rom 11:5.
Recorded in heaven. Luke 10:20.
For the glory of God. Eph 1:6.
Through faith. 2 Thess 2:13.
Through sanctification of the Spirit. 1 Pet 1:2.
To adoption. Eph 1:5.
To salvation. 2 Thess 2:13.
To conformity with Christ. Rom 8:29.
To good works. Eph 2:10.
To spiritual warfare. 2 Tim 2:4.
To eternal glory. Rom 9:23.
Ensures to saints
Effectual calling. Rom 8:30.
Divine teaching. John 17:6.
Belief in Christ. Acts 13:48.
Acceptance with God. Rom 11:7.
Protection. Mark 13:20.
Vindication of their wrongs. Luke 18:7.
Working of all things for good. Rom 8:28.
Blessedness. Ps 33:12; 65:4.
The inheritance. Is 65:9; 1 Pet 1:4,5.
Should lead to cultivation of graces. Col 3:12.
Should be evidenced by diligence. 2 Pet 1:10.
Saints may have assurance of. 1 Thess 1:4.
Exemplified
Isaac. Gen 21:12.
Abram. Neh 9:7.
Zerubbabel. Hag 2:23.
Apostles. John 13:18; 15:19.
Jacob. Rom 9:12,13.
Rufus. Rom 16:13.
Paul. Gal 1:15.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wellsjs:
Gina,

Let me give it a shot:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

No shots please.

 

Chris,
Ok. There's some understanding coming. Keep in mind that I've had an intense hatred of both Augustine and Calvin indoctrinated into me, and in studying both of them I still see no reason to get past that. However, I suppose neither of them really matter when it comes down to it, it's what the Bible teaches.
wells, um, er, actually that was a very good post, minus the shot thing. I'm still working on it. Thank you.
Gina

 

It all comes down to believing what the Bible says. Many Christians get scared at the doctrine of election and swear the Bible says nothing about it, when the Bible of course uses the terms "predestination," "election," and such several times. I had a teacher who said that one must "search the Scriptures, pray, and find out if you are one of the elect. If the Lord reveals it that you are, then you have the RIGHT to believe" (emphasis mine). This heretical statement leaves us trusting in our own selves and hearts for the answer, for ultimately we would rely on a feeling to tell us if we are "elect." (see Psalm 118:8 and Jer. 17:9 on how wicked and untrustworthy we and our hearts are) Spurgeon said that to do this (find out if we are "elect" before we have the "right to believe" is wrong; predestination and election are acts of the Father; we get saved by the Son; "No man cometh unto the Father but by me." We let Jesus do the saving and let God worry about the electing. (kinda a crude statement but it's true). It's obvious the Bible teaches seemingly parodoxical truths (predestination and election, yet it says "for whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.") It is just like man to question a part of God's Word he does not understand. We, in our self-righteousness, assume that if something doesn't make sense to US, then it must be wrong our contradictory. We forget that the Lord says, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Is. 55:8-9) Spurgeon said that when the Lord told him to preach free will, he did. When the Lord told him to preach election, he did. He said that Scripture needs no justifying and no man to make excuses for its claims. God's Word is right, like it always has been, and even though it makes us mad, we don't and won't understand everything about God and the Bible (we see through a "glass darkly" - I Cor. 13:12) Someday, in heaven, God will reveal everything to us and somehow explain how, that, just as the Bible says, we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world...yet we still chose to call upon His name freely Praise God, that can be another reason to look forward to His glorious appearing (Titus 2:13)!

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gina:
Chris,
Ok. There's some understanding coming. Keep in mind that I've had an intense hatred of both Augustine and Calvin indoctrinated into me, and in studying both of them I still see no reason to get past that. However, I suppose neither of them really matter when it comes down to it, it's what the Bible teaches.
Gina<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good for you, Gina. Its always about what the Bible teaches.

Unfortunately, its true that many have been indoctrinated against Augustine and Calvin - neither man was perfect (far from it) but both were brilliant and dead-on in matters of soteriology. And the better part of Baptist theology is rooted in the Reformation and Reformed theology.

Unfortuantely what has been condemned as Calvinism in many circles is really a caricature of the worse type of hyper-calvinism, a type that is rarely found except in small fringe groups.

Biblical, reformed theology asserts both God's divine soveriegnty over all things and man's responsibility and freedom of choice in the "small" things. Both are true and both are biblical.

If you have not ever read J.I. Packer's Knowing God , may I suggest you do so (alogn with the study guide). It is an excellent summation of basic Reformed theology.

 

Will check it out.
Gina

 

Gina one of the hardest doctrines to understand is predestination. There is even a doctrine of Absolute Predestination, that states God predestined everything, good and evil. I don't believe that but I do believe in predestination.

One of the best illustrations of predestination I know in the scriptures is from Luke 23:39-43

39. And one of the malfactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be the Christ, save thyself and us.

Notice in the Matthew 27:38-44 The two thieves crucified with Jesus both railed on him like everyone else.

Notice in verse Luke 23:40 there is a change in one of those thieves.

40. But the other rebuked him, saying, Dost thou not fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41. And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man has done nothing amiss.

42. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

There were three crosses on Calvary. The Son of God(The Gospel-Jesus Saves) was in the middle of both of these thieves. One on the right(the elect) one on the left(the non-elect) but Jesus only spoke to one of those thieves.

There was no way you could preach the gospel to that thieve. No way to get a preacher or witness to that man. No way to tell him that the one crucified between him was his eternal salvation.

Until God worked a change in the one man, he was lost worlds without end the same as the other man. Hellbound with no one to redeem him.

The one on the right was one of Jesus precious sheep and as he said, I lay down my life for the sheep. In the chambers of eternity before the foundation of the world was laid God chose him to live with him in eternal glory.

I think people fear the doctrine of election because they are afraid they will be left out, or maybe someone they dearly love.
Jesus said he would lose nothing but raise it up again at the last day.

His sheep are his sheep, man maybe able to clone a sheep but only God can make one.

Let me clear up a misconception about the doctrine of election, many seem to think this is a small number. Not so If you go to the book of Revelation.

Rev 7:9-10 After this I beheld, an, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

That to me is the awesome doctrine of election... Brother Glen

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris Temple:



Biblical, reformed theology asserts both God's divine soveriegnty over all things and man's responsibility and freedom of choice in the "small" things. Both are true and both are biblical.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Chris, I think that this statement above is true except for one thing; You need to remove the word "small" from the statement and replace it with the word "all". Sovereingty, responsibility, and choice must be reconciled consistently in every area of interaction between God and man for theology to be accurate. Your statement sets forth a false dichotomy between "big" things and "small" things and suggests that God is less soveriegn in "small" things than he is in "big" things. This cannot be for the scriptures teach that God is soveriegn over small things. After all, the hairs of our head are numbered and not a sparrow falls from the sky apart from his knowledge. God's sovereingty and foreknowledge is as complete over what color of socks I will wear tomorrow as over whether I will be saved. The interaction between the sovereignty, responsibility, and choice is the same whether we speak of salvation or socks.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by swaimj:


Chris, I think that this statement above is true except for one thing; You need to remove the word "small" from the statement and replace it with the word "all". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

swaimj:

I agree with you. The reason I used the word small was not to leave only the big things to God, but to indicate that all of man's decisions are made within the realm of God's ultimate control and sovereignty. Our decisions are small when compared to the Master of all things.

[ August 17, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

 

Thanks for the clarification on the word "small."

 

I found a great site that you can ask questions on and get a lot of answers. Read this one guy's answer to a predestination question. I'll post what he said on here too.

predestination?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Joy3chan asked this question on 8/14/2001:
i am just wondering what reasons why some people might not believe in predestination...i am not advocating it, but i was just wondering how someone could not believe that God controls and knows everything...i am looking for some debatable issues, and i would like to discuss them...

rlee1185 gave this response on 8/15/2001:
I believe, that if God would predestinate all events, He would predestinate that every person would get saved and go to Heaven, because He loves every person individually. The thing about infinite love, is that you can divide it by an unlimited number, and it will still be the same amount of love. But you know what? Not every one goes to Heaven like God wants. So, why not? If predestination is a truth, then why would God let some go to Hell, and some go to Heaven? If He wants everyone to go to Heaven, it seems that He has the power to predistine every one to Heaven. So why not?
God does know everything, and He has the power to control it, if He wants to.

When man sinned, God immediately started a program to buy back His creation. So, He sent His only Son, Jesus, to die on the cross to pay for the sins of man. Now that man's sins are payed for, all you have to do is ask Jesus to save you and forgive you of your sins, and you can go to Heaven. That's Biblical. If anyone disagrees with that, that's not my problem, because it is written in the Bible.

God knows who will accept His gift of Salvation and who will not. But He has not predestined people to Heaven or Hell. He has set the plan of salvation, and that is how people get to Heaven. Not by predestination.

Let's say, for example, I am predestined to Hell. What if I ask God to save me? What if I ask Jesus to forgive me of my sins and I accept Jesus as my personal savior? Am I still predestined to Hell?
What about the other way around. What if I am predestined to Heaven, and I never ask Jesus to save me or forgive me or anything like that? What if I'm an atheist? Do I still go to Heaven?

Now I know that all you people who are followers of predestinatoin are going to say, "That's not a valid argument. If predestination is real, then it wouldn't happen like that. You're setting up a straw man!"

Well, I'm just showing you your logic. Predestination is a joke. God wouldn't do any thing like that because it would not be just, and He is a just God. It wouldn't be just because people predestined to Hell can't do anything about where they go. People predestined to Heaven dont have to be born again, because they've got a guaranteed place in Heaven. And that is totally against the Bible, since Jesus said:
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you want to read rlee1185's other answers you can go here: Rlee1185's Askme.com page He has a lot of good answers. You can email him at
rlee1185@hotmail.com

[ August 17, 2001: Message edited by: soulwinner1611 ]

[ August 18, 2001: Message edited by: soulwinner1611 ]