Predestination

Based on this answer, I'd say don't waste your time asking him any questions!

 

What did he say that you don't agree with?

 

If you look at the crucifiction, Jesus is in the middle and two thieves are on either side.

Both were of the same demeanor and railed on him. One had a change. Who changed him?

Why did he say, Jesus was innocent and we deserve what we get. Who changed him?

There was no preacher there. Who witnessed to him? Did Jesus ever say to him, believe on me I am your Savior? NEVER! Not in my Bible.

Who changed him? We know for a scriptural fact he belonged to Jesus because he told him today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

He was going to be conformed in the image of Jesus because he was of the elect and his prior destination is heaven.(Romans 8:29-30)

What about the other fellow, no one changed him, and his destination is hell.

Does this make God unjust-NEVER! Gods ways are not our ways. He saves eternally to the uttermost without any help from man!

Only God can make a sheep! We can only feed them!... Brother Glen

 

The thief that was saved BELIEVED on Jesus. He knew and believed that Jesus was the Son of God. He had probably heard Jesus' teachings before, but even if he had not, the fact that the people were shouting, "If you are the Son of God, then come down from the cross," gave him a clue that this was Jesus. Because the thief believed on Jesus and said what he said, he was saved. It has nothing to do with being "predestined" to Heaven.

I think Rlee has a valid argument.
You just don't want to open your mind to other ways of thinking. I have, and I "tried the spirits" of the predestination doctrine. Predestination is illogical, it is wrong, and it is totally against God's nature to do such a thing.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by soulwinner1611:
What did he say that you don't agree with? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Soulwinner1611:

First let me recommend that you read the previous 5 pages on this subject; that will save a lot of repeated evidence and arguments.

However, let me just make a few comments on some of this fellow’s statements:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I believe, that if God would predestinate all events, He would predestinate that every person would get saved and go to Heaven, because He loves every person individually. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a completely subjective statement and is not based on the revelation of Scripture. You or I can believe whatever we like, but that is irrelevant. The bottom line is what saith the Scripture? Contained within this statement are three erroneous subjective conclusions:

1. error one: a belief that God does not foreordain all things.
Scripture is quite clear that God is the only Divine Sovereign and that he has foreordained all things and controls all things which come to pass.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Isaiah 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself; 25 Who frustrates the signs of the babblers, And drives diviners mad; Who turns wise men backward, And makes their knowledge foolishness; 26 Who confirms the word of His servant, And performs the counsel of His messengers; Who says to Jerusalem, ‘You shall be inhabited,’ To the cities of Judah, ‘You shall be built,’ And I will raise up her waste places; 27 Who says to the deep, ‘Be dry! And I will dry up your rivers’; 28 Who says of Cyrus, ‘He is My shepherd, And he shall perform all My pleasure, Saying to Jerusalem, "You shall be built," And to the temple, "Your foundation shall be laid."‘

45:1 "Thus says the LORD to His anointed, To Cyrus, whose right hand I have held—To subdue nations before him And loose the armor of kings, To open before him the double doors, So that the gates will not be shut: 2 ‘I will go before you And make the crooked places straight; I will break in pieces the gates of bronze And cut the bars of iron. 3 I will give you the treasures of darkness And hidden riches of secret places, That you may know that I, the LORD, Who call you by your name, Am the God of Israel. 4 For Jacob My servant’s sake, And Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me. 5 I am the LORD, and there is no other; There is no God besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me, 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting That there is none besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other; 7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.’ 8 "Rain down, you heavens, from above, And let the skies pour down righteousness; Let the earth open, let them bring forth salvation, And let righteousness spring up together. I, the LORD, have created it. 9 "Woe to him who strives with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth! Shall the clay say to him who forms it, ‘What are you making?’ Or shall your handiwork say, ‘He has no hands’? 10 Woe to him who says to his father, ‘What are you begetting?’ Or to the woman, ‘What have you brought forth?’" 11 Thus says the LORD, The Holy One of Israel, and his Maker: "Ask Me of things to come concerning My sons; And concerning the work of My hands, you command Me. 12 I have made the earth, And created man on it. I—My hands—stretched out the heavens, And all their host I have commanded. 13 I have raised him up in righteousness, And I will direct all his ways; He shall build My city And let My exiles go free, Not for price nor reward," Says the LORD of hosts. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

and Daniel 4:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 4:34 And at the end of the time I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my understanding returned to me; and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him who lives forever: For His dominion is an everlasting dominion, And His kingdom is from generation to generation. 35 All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, "What have You done?"
36 At the same time my reason returned to me, and for the glory of my kingdom, my honor and splendor returned to me. My counselors and nobles resorted to me, I was restored to my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added to me. 37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and extol and honor the King of heaven, all of whose works are truth, and His ways justice. And those who walk in pride He is able to put down. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

2. Error two: a belief that God must preordain everyone to be saved.
If such were so, then everyone would be saved, and there would be no redemptive historical plan of God. But God’s primary purpose is not to save men: God’s primary purpose is to bring glory to his own name by saving some out of all who do not deserve salvation.

Ps 9:11 Sing praises to the LORD, who dwells in Zion! Declare His deeds among the people.

Ps 96.2,3 Sing to the LORD, bless His name; Proclaim the good news of His salvation from day to day. 3 Declare His glory among the nations, His wonders among all peoples.

Isa 12:4 And in that day you will say: "Praise the LORD, call upon His name; Declare His deeds among the peoples, Make mention that His name is exalted.

Ps 2:8 Ask of me, and I will give thee the nations for thine inheritance, And the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Ps 86.9 All nations whom You have made Shall come and worship before You, O Lord, And shall glorify Your name.

Isa 52.10 The LORD has made bare His holy arm In the eyes of all the nations; And all the ends of the earth shall see The salvation of our God.

God is righteous. He recognizes, welcomes, loves, and upholds with infinite jealousy and energy what is infinitely valuable, namely the worth of God.

Isaiah 48:9 "For My name’s sake I will defer My anger, And for My praise I will restrain it from you, So that I do not cut you off. 10 Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction. 11 For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it; For how should My name be profaned? And I will not give My glory to another.”

The most passionate heart for the glorification of God is God’s heart.

God chose his people for his glory: Eph 1:4-6
God created us for his glory: Isaiah 43:6-7
God called Israel for his glory. Jer 13:11
God raised up Pharaoh to show his own power and glorify his own name: Rom 9:17
Jesus sought the glory of the Father in all he did: John 7:18
Jesus told us to do good works so that God gets the glory: Mt 5:16
Jesus said he answers prayer so that God gets the glory: John 12:27-28
God forgives our sins for his own sake: Isaiah 43:25
Jesus is coming again for the glory of God: 2 Thess 1:9-10
Even in wrath God’s aim is to make known the wealth of his glory: Rom 9:22-23

Jonathan Edwards said: “The great end of God’s works, which is so variously expressed in Scripture, is indeed but ONE; and this one end is most properly and comprehensively called, THE GLORY OF GOD.”

3. Error three: God loves all people equally or individually. God has different levels of love. There is a benevolent love with which he loves all creation, but his special, personal love is reserved for the elect, his children.

Eph 1:4-6 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.

1 John 3:1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.

God had determined before the foundation of the world to choose to save some who were headed for condemnation, to adopt them as His sons and daughters, purely out of His good will, in order to glorify His own name, and to bestow on believers the inheritance of the kingdom of God.

Those not elect, the reprobate, those passed over, he hates with a holy, righteous hate.

Psalm 5:4 4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness, Nor shall evil dwell with You. 5 The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity. 6 You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; The LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.

Revelation 3:9 "Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie——indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.

I could go on much further, but it would take up much too much space. There are several ways to examine predestination, But for this individual to say “Predestination is a joke”, is denial of biblical doctrine in the least, and blasphemy at the worst. The word of God is very clear that predestination is a doctrine of mystery, shielded within God’s sovereignty and righteousness.

 

Hey Kathy, just for discussion sake, what do you think, lol? I'm just teasin', I'm doing too much studying to possibly talk about a single 'nother aspect of it anymore.
But did you get what you were looking for by any chance?
Gina

 

II Peter 3:9. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

[ August 22, 2001: Message edited by: RobertLynn ]

[ August 22, 2001: Message edited by: RobertLynn ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
Read the verse now with the light on: The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient WITH YOU, not wanting any (indef. pronoun referring back to YOU) OF YOU to perish, but all (again referring back to the believers of the entire chapter) OF YOU to come to repentance.

The three most important principles in understanding a text is its context, context, context. Just start with 3:1, find out WHO Peter was talking to, then keep adding that bunch for each pronoun, etc.

Neat way to study the Bible! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Except that in the original Greek, the context is universal, not specific. If Peter wanted to use the pronouns you have added, he had ample opportunity to use them. They're not there. I suppose that is why the English translators (all of them including the KJV) did not insert them, even as supplied words.

Not only that, but it correlates with the context of every other passage quoted here related to predestination. Every New Testament book was written to Christians--in context--those who were already chosen, or predestined. The "predestined" are the target audience of the author, and that is the context in which the book is written.

It is the same word used in reference to the Jews of the Old Testament. They were "chosen" to bring glory to God and to give testimony and revelation, to prepare the world for the coming of Jesus.

If we use your context for the word "chosen" in 1 Peter 1:9, for example, then Peter is excluding all but the few Christians he is writing to when he calls them a "chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation." What he is doing is telling this specific group of Christians how they fit into the big picture, that the Church is the "Israel" of the New Testament.

The context is easy to figure out, since it is already set by Jesus himself in John 3:

15--"that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life."
16--"that whoever believes in him...
17--"but to save the world through him...
18--whoever believes in him is not condemned...

The "Predestined" or "chosen" in the NT is a designation for those who have already been saved at the time the book was written, since they are the audience.

Not all of us were students of Dr. Mounce. There are some Baptist Greek experts who will tell us that the English word "predestined" is a poor rendering of the original text. Perhaps a Calvinistic bias worked its way into the translation???

 

I am sure that others with more patience that I will answer your post. I want to address only one small point.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The context is easy to figure out, since it is already set by Jesus himself in John 3:

15--"that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life."
16--"that whoever believes in him...
17--"but to save the world through him...
18--whoever believes in him is not condemned...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Apparently the meaning of "context" has just plain bypassed you. You cannot argue for the context of 2 Peter by referring to the gospel of John. Context means that which is immediately surrounding the passage in question. The gospel of John is far removed by canonically and chronologically.

Additionally, no Bible believing Calvinist will deny that "whosoever will" may believe and "whoever believes" will be saved. That has nothing to do with the argument. The question is how the "whosoever" get into the "whosoever." On this point, Scripture is clear: They are chosen by God (Eph 1), predestined by God (2 Thess 2:13; Rom 8:29-30; Acts 13:48), drawn by God (John 6:44), given belief and repentance by God (Acts 11:15), and saved by God. There are many other verses that will complement these.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Additionally, no Bible believing Calvinist will deny that "whosoever will" may believe and "whoever believes" will be saved. That has nothing to do with the argument. The question is how the "whosoever" get into the "whosoever." On this point, Scripture is clear: They are chosen by God (Eph 1), predestined by God (2 Thess 2:13; Rom 8:29-30; Acts 13:48), drawn by God (John 6:44), given belief and repentance by God (Acts 11:15), and saved by God. There are many other verses that will complement these.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly right Larry. It is also frustrating that Arminians never deal with the Scriptural evidence presented them, as in my long post above. Instead, they repeatedly return to the apparently "universal" passages and ignore the clearly Calvinistic ones.

It all boils down to presuppositions. Arminians begin with the belief that God's main purpose is to save fallen man. Calvinists begin with the Scriptural presupposition that God's main purpose is to magnify His own glorious name among the nations. Until one grasps that truth, the heart rails against election, predestination and sovereignty.

 

Well spoken Chris! I have experienced the "brick wall" in trying to witness to some Universalists, who believe that hell is temporary, that all who go to hell will come to repentance in hell, and that all mankind will eventually be saved. You absolutely cannot get them to "see" the Calvinist passages. They are totally hung up on the "universal" ones.

I am amazed at how people cling to what they want to believe the Bible says, in spite of overwhelming contrary evidence. They pick a few passages that can be shaped toward their inclination, and ignore others that clearly refute their claims. Some have gotten upset with me; accused me of calling them crazy, when I stated that Satan has a hold on their minds, but that is absolutely the case. They aren't unintelligent people, but they live in denial of their own shortsightedness.

When Jesus said, "I will give sight to the blind," He had the spiritually blind in mind moreso than the physically blind. It is therefore my premise that there are a lot of folks calling themselves Christians, even pastors, who have head-knowledge of God and Jesus, but who know them not truly in their hearts. If they did, and were indwelt by the Holy Spirit, their spiritual "blinders" would be removed. Then we wouldn't have clergy and congregations supporting and advocating gay rights, abortion rights, evolution, etc.

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. (Eph 6:12 NIV) The spiritual battle going on today is for your mind, my mind. Satan wants to own and control it. For God's elect, the Holy Spirit is our body guard against Satan's desire to control our minds. That's why we must "Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; (Prov 3:5 NIV) because Satan can fool our understanding! We must "walk by faith, not by sight."

If I've stepped on anyone's toes here, your toes, please understand that I've done so with a heavy heart, because I don't want to see Satan get away with deception, especially concerning God's elect.

 

I want to pose one question to all you learned brethren. Since we are DEAD in trespasses and in sin, what ability does a Dead man have in regards to his Eternal Salvation?

I believe in the Total Depravity of Man and the Irresistable Power of Amazing Grace!... Brother Glen

 

Rather than write a long book-like post, let me just say that the Book of James does a good job of answering your question.