MMF - The neutrality of Music - Instruments yes lyrics no

Karen,

Jesus, as a man, was a man as man was intended to be. Jesus was not fallen. He was not polluted by Original Sin. Everything that issued from Jesus was right, just, pure, good, holy and just downright pleasing to the Father.

Those who are directly descend from Adam, however, are defiled. As the Scriptures plainly say, "There is none that doeth good, no, not one," Romans 3:12.

 

You act as if there is no such thing as regeneration. Yes, we may still be affected by the fall, and still manifest bad emotions, but to say all emotions are bad and make music bad is a bad argument. You forget, Traditional music elicits emotions too, so there goes that argument.

Stumbler, it's not the music that causes people to "react" in the way you describe. Yes, churches are copying lock, stock and barrel from the world sometimes, and they may copy the gimmicks (clothes, etc) along with the sound, but the sound didn't hypnotize them into copying the other stuff. They can exist apart from each other.
Stuff is "jazzed up" today because the styles have changed. Just like the inspired writers may have updated the style to older plainer styles. The 17-19th century hymn style was not the divinely revealed heavenly style.

 

No, it is you who acts as if there is no fallen nature. Also, nowhere did I say all emotions are wrong. I said all that proceed from our natural man are wrong. Those that are the fruit of the Spirit are right.

How do you know the difference? By the Word of God, not some ecstatic, trance-like feeling we get when our arms are raised, our heads thrown back and our eyes rolled back.

Now, music cannot affect the Spirit of God, therefore, we must be very certain that the music we play is not enticing our sin nature and evoking ignoble, sensual feelings.

 

Hi Sularis:

Regarding your original statement that you can defile any hymn and make it unholy by the lyrics. Then you stated that you can not difile anything that is truly holy. Thus concluding that instrumentation is neutral.

Well you can defile something that is holy. The sanctuary was defiled many times in the old testiment. Just because you can ruin a hymn with bad lyrics does not prove that the music itself is neutral. Your whole premise is faulty thereby leaving you with a faulty conclusion.

If music is neutral then why don't the witch doctors try to conjure up the spirits with "Amazing Grace"?

Music has a profound effect on us, greater than we know.

I would suggest you enestly pray about this matter and be willing to walk in the light God sends your way. This is not just some theory we are talking about, it is a masterpiece of Satan's deception which will lead many to worship the false god.

God bless you.

 

I agree with you to the extent that we Baptists (generally speaking) have had some level of empty legalism i.e. "drinkin and smokin is bad but it's ok to be a lousy employee". But I contend that where minor adjustments are in order, we are instead throwing away so much so quickly that we will find ourselves without mooring very soon, from a moral perspective.

 

This is certainly true, and I am certainly not without my criticisms of the contemporary society, Church and even CCM on this. But too many critics seem to uncritically uphold the past as the model of what we should be, and this just adds confusion, because everyone knows the past had just as many problems and sins (though different and there was no media broadcasting them into public consciousness).

 

Once again Aaron, you have no proof that shows ccm brings out the wrong emotions, but then again, being that there really is no proof that there are "bad emotions" just your concept of it I suppose it's still a dead argument.

karen

 

The issue here was whether music was neutral or not. You can visit the "Verdict" thread for my arguments against rock music.

 

Sularis, I think music is the wrong thing for you to be arguing right now. I suggest you visit the Theology forum and learn more of Christ.

 

Sularis,

So, you have a saving knowledge of Christ and have dabbled somewhat in ontology. Your statement that Christ shared our fallen nature is an error.

[ April 29, 2002, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

Christ does not have a sin nature because His Father has no sin nature. A sin nature comes through Adam. Christ is the second Adam as referred to in Romans. Christ is perfect as extolled in Hebrews.

[ April 29, 2002, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

Umm ok the whole clothing issue and "look" argument doesn't hold water anymore. Realizing if you will that the top notch looking executive in the buisness world with the suit and tie plus hardened heart full of pride, anger,lust and unrighteousness could easily be mistaken for many pastors behind the pulpit going strictly by looks.... Hello where's the "separated" look there folks??

Most people who feel there is no separation in this type of christian music never listen to it anyway so how in the world can they know? If they have listened and dont' approve that's up to them, but it still holds no water aside from their own taste and conviction.

karen

 

My penny's worth on rock music and christian rock.
Let's hear it from the rock and roll "idols":

"Our music is capable of causing emotional instability, disorganized behavior, rebellion and even revolution." ...'The Beatles'

"The throbbing beat of rock provides a vital sexual release for adolescent audiences."...Jan Berry

"Pop music is sex, and you have to hit them in the face with it."...Andrew Oldham (recording manager for the 'Rolling Stones')

"I'm in rock music for the sex and narcotics."...Glenn Frey of 'The Eagles'

"Rock 'n' roll is 99% sex."...John Oates

"Everyone takes it for granted that rock and roll is synonymous with sex."...Chris Stein, lead guitarist with 'Blondie.'

"Rock music is sex. The beat matches the body rhythms."...Frank Zappa, superstar of 'Mothers of Invention' fame.

Now, let's hear it from the Holy Spirit:
Ephesians 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

I Chronicles 16:9 Sing unto him, sing psalms unto him, talk ye of all his wondrous works.

Psalms 47:7 For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding.

Rock music is devil music, and Christian Rock or Rap is no better.

 

Hmm Piano, you don't like to accept scientific studies especially from worldly scientists which I agree too...but your willing to accept quotes from worldly singers on accepting or rejecting christian rock? Alrighty then...

karen

 

Karen:

Like Robert de Niro would say:

Are you talking to me ?
Are you talking to me ?
Are you talking to me ?

Well. if you meant Pinoy and not Piano, yes, the rockers are saying what they are doing and the Scriptures are telling us what we should be doing.
The worldly scientists ? I look at it this way.
A doctor tells his patient to stop smoking. Well, he doesn't smoke. Tells his patient to start exercising. He's an exercise fanatic.
Same patient goes to another doctor.
Asks if he should stop smoking. Doctor smokes. Tells patient, well, if you can, yeah, that'll be good.
Should he exercise. Doctor has potbelly. No, not really necessary, unless you can fit it into your lifestyle. That'll be good.
Personal experience.
Decision: spoonful of salt will help.

 

Huh?

Pinoy, if you're going to follow the logic that just because someone (or a group of someones) misuses something, it then becomes inherently bad, then how do you justify using a computer and being on the internet when the internet is full of porno sites, gambling sites, sites that mock Christ and sites that encourage people to engage in a variety of sins?

Isn't that just a bit hypocritical?

Also, why are you guys always so quick to bring up quotes from mainstream rockers to paint rock with the old "sex, drugs and rock'n'roll"
stereotype, yet you never want to talk about the artists who don't view rock that way?

Kevin Cronin said publicly that the REO Speedwagon song, "Love is a Bridge", was written about how his relationship with his son was repaired when they both accepted Christ.

Alice Cooper's said publicly that the lyrics from his last three albums are reflective of his faith.

Kerry Livgren, one of the most popular rock artists from the 70's and 80's retired from the road because he wanted to help up and coming Christian artists spread the Gospel.

It seems somewhat disingenuous of you to only bring up negative quotes in order to say "A-HA!", yet ignore quotes that paint rock in a positive light.

Personally, I think you're better than that, but we'll see.

Mike

http://www.keylife.org

[ April 27, 2002, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

Great post, pinoybaptist.

 

Mike,

pinoy quoted the reason that most, if not all, secular artists use the style.

You quoted about lyrics. There's a big difference.