God has provided salvation for all mankind.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JAMES2:
John Wells:
Ok, let me try to make the connection clearer about Gen. 3:15.

Gen. 3:15 makes VERY clear that from the very beginning there are two types of people. Christ's seed and Satan's seed. God will PUT perpetual enmity between the seed of the serpent and the seed of the women.

There are two types of people here. The elect (the woman's seed) and the non-elect (the serpent's seed). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The two "seed" in this verse refers to the "seed of God", (Son of God, Jesus) (seed of the woman) and the "seed of Satan", (son of predition, antichrist). (seed of seprent)

As God has a "Son", so does Satan.

God is the "Father" of Jesus, and Satan is the "Father of the antichrist", (father of a lie).

The antichrist fools people into believing he is the Messiah, making him a "lie".

Jesus said:
Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. (as being the Messiah)

Antichrist:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: (the antichrist)

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by trueliberty:
[QB]By all means, anyone can join in.

Concerning the issue of "equal opportunity" look at Romans 1:18-32. God says in verse 20 that people who refuse the revelation of God are "without excuse". Throughout the passage it clearly shows people knowing about God but choosing not to accept it.

If they (the unbeliever, non-elect, pagans--whatever label you wish) are without excuse, then they must have had opportunity to act on the knowledge God gave them. If they have opportunity, then God must have provided salvation for them. How could this be a non-sequitor? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is non sequitor because the revelation people reject is general revelation; a revelation of his existence, his order, his law and his righteousness. It is not referring to special revelation, by which alone the gospel is given and Christ may be ascertained. All people are guilty because the heavens are telling the glory of God. Seeing this, people are responsible to seek out more revelation, but are unable and unwilling to do so due to their total depravity.

By God's grace, special revelation is given, so that the elect will believe, and the reprobate will receive greater condemnation, to the glory of God.

*****************************
The London Confession of Baptist Faith, Chapter XX. Of the Gospel, and of the Extent of the Grace Thereof

II. This promise of Christ, and salvation by Him, is revealed only by the Word of God;[3] neither do the works of creation or providence, with the light of nature, make discovery of Christ, or of grace by Him, so much as in a general or obscure way;[4] much less that men destitute of the revelation of Him by the promise or gospel, should be enabled thereby to attain saving faith or repentance.[5]

3. Rom. 1:17
4. Rom. 10:14-15, 17
5. Prov. 29:18; Isa. 25:7; 60:2-3

III. The revelation of the gospel unto sinners, made in divers times and by sundry parts, with the addition of promises and precepts for the obedience required therein, as to the nations and persons to whom it is granted, is merely of the sovereign will and good pleasure of God;[6] not being annexed by virtue of any promise to the due improvement of men's natural abilities, by virtue of common light received without it, which none ever did make, or can do so;[7] and therefore in all ages, the preaching of the gospel has been granted unto persons and nations, as to the extent or straitening of it, in great variety, according to the counsel of the will of God.

6. Psa. 147:20; Acts 16:7
7. Rom. 1:18-32

IV. Although the gospel be the only outward means of revealing Christ and saving grace, and is, as such, abundantly sufficient thereunto; yet that men who are dead in trespasses may be born again, quickened or regenerated, there is moreover necessary an effectual insuperable work of the Holy Spirit upon the whole soul, for the producing in them a new spiritual life;[8] without which no other means will effect their conversion unto God.[9]

8. Psa. 110:3; I Cor. 2:14; Eph. 1:19-20
9. John 6:44; II Cor. 4:4, 6

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by S. Baptist:
So God ties up man in the chains of "total depravity" then condemns him for not being
"responsible"???? And you call this a "JUST GOD"???? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

More straw man arguments. Man is totally depraved due to Adam's imputed sin. He is depraved in his natural state from birth. Do you deny original sin and the imputation of the sin of Adam? Do you understand the concept of First and Second Causation?

You quote a lot of Scriptures out of context, yet you do not believe the entirety of the Scriptures you like to quote. Put away your human rationalism and believe what the Scriptures teach. God is Sovereign and man is responsible.

Romans 1:24-32 (ESV)
Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, [25] because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
[26] For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; [27] and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
[28] And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
to the glory of God??????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Romans 9:14-25 (ESV)
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! [15] For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." [16] So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. [17] For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." [18] So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
[19] You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" [20] But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" [21] Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? [22] What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, [23] in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— [24] even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? [25] As indeed he says in Hosea,
"Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,'
and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.' "

[ December 03, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

 

I don't think anyone here is denying the "total depravity" of man. Romans 1 and 3 etc amply shows that truth.
But total depravity does not equal total inability. Read John 12:32 which shows that since Jesus was lifted up on the cross, he draws all people to him. Draws just the elect? No, everyone!
Unless the word all all of a sudden doesn't always mean all
John 16:7 he convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgment. Unless the word world doesn't mean world.
Hebrews 2:9 ..."tasted death for every man" Unless the word every doesn't means every

All people are universally responsible because they can and do resist the drawing power of the Holy Spirit, can and do resist the conviction of the same, and can and do deny the knowledge that general revelation gives us that would lead to a way to accept the gospel through special revelation---sometimes miraculously. Missionaries attest to that truth.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by trueliberty:
But total depravity does not equal total inability. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How can total be total if it doesn't affect everything? Are you suggesting that "total depravity" affects everything but the will?

Total depravity means that depravity affects everything including the will. Thus man cannot come to God on his own.

 

Very true pastor Larry

Also remember y'all that if you have any concept of the nature of God, than he knew before the foundation of the world who would and who would not turn to Christ.

His very nature demands a concept of the Elect.
Even if it was not cleary taught by Scripture, including the Lord Jesus Christ himeslf

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by superdave:
Very true pastor Larry

Also remember y'all that if you have any concept of the nature of God, than he knew before the foundation of the world who would and who would not turn to Christ.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting discussion - I hope you don't mind if I add a comment or two.

In the statement above, I noticed the phrase "turn to Christ". I believe that means "repent". Isn't that an action of man, in realizing that his sinful life is leading to death and destruction, decides to turn from his current path and follow Christ?

Isn't the word "repent" a prominent word in the Bible? Or am I misunderstanding this word and concept?

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Glory Bound:
In the statement above, I noticed the phrase "turn to Christ". I believe that means "repent". Isn't that an action of man, in realizing that his sinful life is leading to death and destruction, decides to turn from his current path and follow Christ?

Isn't the word "repent" a prominent word in the Bible? Or am I misunderstanding this word and concept? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I suspect you may misunderstand the concept of repentance. If we look at the bible <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>2 Timothy 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>we will see that repentance is not something we do, but a gift given to us by God.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Glory Bound:


Interesting discussion - I hope you don't mind if I add a comment or two.

In the statement above, I noticed the phrase "turn to Christ". I believe that means "repent". Isn't that an action of man, in realizing that his sinful life is leading to death and destruction, decides to turn from his current path and follow Christ?

Isn't the word "repent" a prominent word in the Bible? Or am I misunderstanding this word and concept? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The NT word for repent is metanoeoµ; meaning to change one’s mind or purpose. It is certainly an action of man. But the unregenerate man has no desire to repent; indeed he loves his sin and being in sin.

Rom 1:32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

The NT commands repentanc of men, and does not "invite" them to:

Acts 17:30 “Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent

The only way that a dead sinner can turn and trust Christ, is by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit:

John 5:21 “For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.

Eph 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris Temple:

The NT word for repent is metanoeoµ; meaning to change one’s mind or purpose. It is certainly an action of man. But the unregenerate man has no desire to repent; indeed he loves his sin and being in sin.
[/b]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Okay. But it's an action of man. It's a decision made by man. Isn't that one of the issues that this whole argument is about? The man repents. He chooses to follow Christ.

I don't see repentance as a works issue. Works are good deeds performed by some hoping that they will outnumber the bad deeds, and then they'll get to heaven.

Repentance is a decision. Not works.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Glory Bound:

Okay. But it's an action of man. It's a decision made by man. Isn't that one of the issues that this whole argument is about? The man repents. He chooses to follow Christ.

I don't see repentance as a works issue. Works are good deeds performed by some hoping that they will outnumber the bad deeds, and then they'll get to heaven.

Repentance is a decision. Not works.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Repentance, decision making, praying - anything one does is a work. But for the believer it is a work of the Holy Spirit in them.

The whole argument is about works. Is salvation an act of God, or an act of man? Some say that man can perform some good works on his own, such as repenting and trusting Christ. The Bible says man cannot.

John 15:16 (ESV)
You did not choose me, but I chose you ...

John 15:5 (ESV)
... for apart from me you can do nothing.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The whole argument is about works. Is salvation an act of God, or an act of man? Some say that man can perform some good works on his own, such as repenting and trusting Christ. The Bible says man cannot.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Salvation IS an act of God. Repenting is an act of man. Repenting is not salvation. Repenting precedes salvation.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris Temple:
Repentance, decision making, praying - anything one does is a work. But for the believer it is a work of the Holy Spirit in them.

The whole argument is about works. Is salvation an act of God, or an act of man? Some say that man can perform some good works on his own, such as repenting and trusting Christ. The Bible says man cannot.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I contend that repentance is an act, but not an effort to earn salvation. "Works" salvation is trying to work to earn or make oneself worthy of saving. Repentance and faith is merely responding to God's drawing and call, and must come from a man who recognizes he's not worthy of eternal life. It doesn't make us worthy; it just signifies that we are willing to come on God's terms, recognizing that we are what God says we are.

I agree that man is dead. I agree that God must draw him. And God does draw him. But there is a line which, when a man crosses by repentance and faith, he becomes saved by God's grace. Who decides whether a man crosses the line when he is drawn to it?

By the way, if a man gain the whole world and lose his own soul, didn't he have some say in that?

Just curious. I haven't debated hyper-electionism in a while and am probably no match for you good fellows.

--B C

 

Man’s sovereignty never over rules God’s sovereignty and God’s sovereignty never over rules mans. We have a free will to choose right or wrong, accept or reject the gift of salvation that is offered to man. Romans 10:13

 

I did a little "research" to see if the Bible has anything to say about "predestination", an "lo
and behold", I found Jesus, John and Paul condemning it.

The Jews, being Jews, believed that since God had chosen them, and Abraham being their
Father, they were "automatically saved", but Jesus, John and Paul revealed that not even they
were "predestined to salvation".

Let's see what was said about it.

John preached:

Mt 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto
you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Mt 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:


Jesus taught:
Lu 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and
Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

And Paul:

Ro 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to
his seed, through the law, but through the....."righteousness of faith".

Ro 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel,
which are of Israel:

Ro 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God:
but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Ga 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to
Abraham by promise.

Ro 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs,...."faith is made void,"...... and the
promise made of none effect:

"FAITH" in Jesus is the reason God saves anyone, and having that "Faith" is a "choice" we
make, not God.

Mr 4:40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that "ye have no faith?"

Lu 5:20 And when he saw "their faith", he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

Lu 8:25 And he said unto them, Where is "your faith"?

Mr 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, "Have faith" in God.

"Faith" is "Spiritual", "works" is a "physical act according to law".

Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Ro 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but "believeth" (Faith) on him that justifieth the ungodly,
"his faith" is counted for righteousness.

Calvin denies that the promise to Abraham and his seed would be by "his faith" counted for
righteousness. , Calvin insist it was by "Predestination".

 

Repentance is a gift of God. Man repents because God gives it to him.

Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."

Romans 2:4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

2 Timothy 2:25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

_______________________


S. Baptist has once again listed a bunch of verses that have nothing to do with the issue here.

Christ on predestination: John 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Notice that they do not come to him because of the Father, not because of themselves.

Paul on predestination: 2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Notice that the election (chose) was "from the beginning" and "for salvation."

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brian Collins:
Just curious. I haven't debated hyper-electionism in a while and am probably no match for you good fellows.

--B C<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hyper-electionism? That's a new one!

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ddavis:
Man’s sovereignty never over rules God’s sovereignty and God’s sovereignty never over rules mans. We have a free will to choose right or wrong, accept or reject the gift of salvation that is offered to man. Romans 10:13 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nothing could be more unbiblical.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Glory Bound:


Salvation IS an act of God. Repenting is an act of man. Repenting is not salvation. Repenting precedes salvation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

2 Tim. 2:25-26 (ESV)
correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, [26] and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.