Evil is as evil does?

I thought of another distinctive between the words of David and us. David was a king and had judicial powers and a divine responsibility to keep the kingdom of Israel separate from the heathen kingdoms around them who were literal physical enemies. When he said he hated those who hated God, it could be understood in the context of his responsibilities as king of Israel.

Just another thought...

-- Danette

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daniel Davidson:
Or, now that you see Calvin does the very thing you say he does not, will you admit that Calvin taught a base and perverted religion? I hope so. The alternative is to think the same of your own religion, since you seem at odds with Calvin on this issue. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Calvin's God (I use a capital G becuase I think it is ****** not to) did create people knowing they would go to hell. I never denied that. In fact, in his eternal decree, he decreed that they would reap the consequences of their own disobedience and He would do nothing to stop it. They are going to hell because they want to. You make it sound as if these people going to hell are going to hell against their wishes. They are not. They do not want to choose God; they do not want to repent; they do not want to be saved. God is simply letting them go their own way.

If you have read Calvin, more power to you. Most people haven't which is why I assumed you hadn't. I certainly haven't. I don't care to all that much because what Calvin believed is of little consequence to me. This should not really be a discussion about Calvin but rather a discussion about Scripture.

However, I did notice that you have included no Scripture here. You have not discussed the Scripture I gave earlier.

Speaking of which, how about Rom 9:22: "What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?" It appears that perhaps Calvin was not all that far off.

I think you have a problem with your position: If God knows all things (which I assume you do not deny) and if God knew before creation that certain men would reject him regardless of the cause, and if God chose to go ahead and create them anyway knowing that they would be damned for all eternity, then have you really escaped the theology you so abhor? God created people that he knew would go to hell for all eternity. Your God is no better than Calvin's, in your description.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'm literally asking, would you try to make these people understand this, or would you leave them alone in their apparent ignorance? i.e., is it worth your time and effort to try to explain what we've basically come up with here to people who are so entrenched in their thought that they have a biblical right to hate sinners?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All we can do is point to the truth of the Scripture. Personally, I won't stoop to arguing and will bow out of the discussion if either the conversation degenerates to anger and personal diatribes OR if the other person indicates they are not willing to consider any view other than their own preconceived beliefs. There's nothing to be gained in that.

For one thing, if someone else truly believes something different than I do and I COULD convince them to change their mind, they wouldn't be doing so because God had convicted them of it, they would be committing idolatry. If I present Scripture and they are convinced by the Word and the Holy Spirit, then the motives have value.

Bottom line, prejudice is blind. While these same people would probably scorn those who are prejudiced against blacks or Jews, they don't realize they are doing the EXACT same thing. Only God can change a heart. I think we have a responsibility to state the truth and be available for any who are truly seeking (and on boards such as this you never know who's reading), but then we have to leave the "convincing" in God's hands.

-- Danette

 

Daniel Davidson said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>God (the Christian God) does not hate His creation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you believe this, then you really need to give an explaination to the following Scripture that has already been brought up.
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>Leviticus 26:30 Psalms 5:5, Psalms 11:5 Proverbs 6:16-19[/list]

And do you think God loves Satan, whom he has created?

On another note, (sorry Don) Pastor Larry said : <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I think you have a problem with your position: If God knows all things (which I assume you do not deny) and if God knew before creation that certain men would reject him regardless of the cause, and if God chose to go ahead and create them anyway knowing that they would be damned for all eternity, then have you really escaped the theology you so abhor? God created people that he knew would go to hell for all eternity. Your God is no better than Calvin's, in your description.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now that is food for thought! I guess the only way out of that is to somehow believe that God does not know everything. And that would then be a little [g]od.

[ November 04, 2001: Message edited by: Chet ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Don:

Now, please allow me to clarify my earlier question: I'm not asking you to try to make someone understand what we've said here. I'm literally asking, would you try to make these people understand this, or would you leave them alone in their apparent ignorance? i.e., is it worth your time and effort to try to explain what we've basically come up with here to people who are so entrenched in their thought that they have a biblical right to hate sinners?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1 John 1:5-10 (ESV)
This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. [6] If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. [7] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. [8] If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. [10] If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 John 2:3-11 (ESV)
And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. [4] Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, [5] but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him: [6] whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.
[7] Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard. [8] At the same time, it is a new commandment that I am writing to you, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining. [9] Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness. [10] Whoever loves his brother abides in the light, and in him there is no cause for stumbling. [11] But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

Luke 6:27-28 (ESV)
"But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, [28] bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you.

Luke 6:35 (ESV)
But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil.

Don:

I assume you're speaking of professing Christians who hate. There is a sense in which we all hate at one time or another; that's the sin nature we must struggle against. But if "believers" hate intentionally, i.e., Godhatesfags, then they must be brought to the Scriptures cited above. To hate others is to be walking in sin, in darkness, and presents a problem of credibility to a confession of Christ.

If one is not a believer, they must first be broken before the cross before they cease to hate.

 

Don, another thought I had this a.m. -- there comes a time when we have to separate from "brothers" who are determined to walk in untruth. In this situation, that would be "separating" from the conversation. How far can you reason with someone who has abandoned themselves to the flesh (hatred) and is, therefore, not walking in the Spirit? God's truth is spiritually understood. (I Cor. 2:13-15)

-- Danette

 

Danette,

Just out of curiousity, who here said it was okay to hate people? I have gone back and reread this thread and don't see anyone condoning sinful hatred.

 

Yep, what Don said. We're talking about an issue in the "abstract", sort of, not about anyone in this discussion saying hatred is OK. I don't think anyone in this thread has said hatred of individuals is acceptable.

-- Danette