Hyper-Dispensationalism

Hello JackRUS. Did you set them straight disproving Christ didn't after all give to Paul a dispensational gospel?

By the way, baptism, confession, and repentance are very important to us; for this is what His Word tells us is necessary

Christian faith, ituttut

 

Mike.
They only believe that there were two Gospels. One up until the time of Paul in Acts 28 I believe at the Jews final rejection of Christ.

I am quite sure that based on John 6:40,47; 11:28-30, Galatians 3, and Romans 4 that we may have more information now concerning Christ, but there has always been only one Gospel.

ituttut.

The answer to your first question is I hope so.

My reply to your second comment is that you must not be a hyperdispensationalist then.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperdispensationalism

 

With all due respect, I believe you are oversimplifying here. There are more than one 'flavor' of ultra-dispenasationalists. And 'itut' qualifies on at least one point. That point is that generally a 'UD' believes that the church, the body of Christ, did not start at Pentecost. Various have put this after Acts 28, at Acts 13:46 with "Lo, we turn to the Gentiles", as the key; and the conversion of Paul, as ituttut claims. mY suggestion is this is in a sneaky way no different from Covenant theology, who likewise attempt to have "the church" begin at some other time, in their case all the redeemed. Error is still error. no matter from which direction. I gotta get to bed. Language Cop has already hit the hay and left me to my own devices, so there may be misteaks in my typing. G'nite!
Ed

 

QUOTE]Originally posted by JackRUS:


ituttut.

The answer to your first question is I hope so.

My reply to your second comment is that you must not be a hyperdispensationalist then.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperdispensationalism

Amen! A progressive dispensationalist.

Christian faith, ituttut

 

Hello MikeinGhana. Shouldn’t we in our leaning take a stand, i.e. be committed to it – ”So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.” If we believe in a dispensation then should we not embrace it to the fullest. Who was “hyper”, Cain or Abel? Who carried all the way through in that dispensation what they had been told to do? Do we not rebel in “half measures”?

It pays to carry through and believe the “whole gospel”, and that must include the gospel of Christ Jesus as he speaks to us from heaven in this dispensation. If we don’t go to heaven for His gospel from there, will we not just believe the earthly gospel of Jesus to His nation and be in the “kingdom He gives to His Apostles”? ”And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 16. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new”, II Corinthians 5:15-17.

It is so very hard to give up what they taught, John the Baptist, Jesus, Peter, John, James, and the others of and for the nation Israel. Are we in Christ, and New creatures? Hasn’t that Old dispensation passed away, and in this dispensation all things are New?

Christian faith, ituttut

 

IMO. there is no such thing as a "tribulation period" but there is a time of "great tribulation". Given that as a premise, it is certainly true that the OT describes "tribulation" that God caused in the past as a result of His wrath. But if you look specifically at end times prophecies, you'll see that there is a clear distinction between the time of great tribulation and the outpouring of God's wrath, which immediately follows the great tribulation.

Personally, I'm waiting for Jesus to return. And I'd love to see the Day of the Lord begin from down here (sun goes black, moon turns the color of blood and Jesus appears in Glory), even if I have to endure any part of the great tribulation to be here for it. Call me nuts, but it's just something I'd love to see before I get caught up in the clouds with Him.

 

Yeah, yeah. You're just one of those extremists about being anti-extremist.

 

They believe the “great commission”.

Spread the gospel – Grace Commission of Believe on the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ for Salvation.

Going a little overboard there, I would say

Extreme has more than one meaning, and in that I am extreme, viz. to the furthest or highest degree of Biblical understanding. We are to have the mind of Christ. How do we know this? Christ revealed it to His Apostle Paul.

Only beginning on Damascus Road did Christ chose me to be in His Kingdom. How do I know that? My OKJV Bible tells me so. Doesn’t yours read just like mine. If that is what you live by, then live it and not “knock” what it tells you. Just because you got one doesn’t mean anything – You’ve got to Believe It.

Christian faith, ituttut

 

IMO. there is no such thing as a "tribulation period" but there is a time of "great tribulation". Given that as a premise, it is certainly true that the OT describes "tribulation" that God caused in the past as a result of His wrath. But if you look specifically at end times prophecies, you'll see that there is a clear distinction between the time of great tribulation and the outpouring of God's wrath, which immediately follows the great tribulation.

</font>[/QUOTE]Understood. Thanks for better clarity.

The ones left down here, not saved in this dispensation of God, means they are not saved, and will go into the next dispensation, that being when Trib. begins. We can’t have it both ways.

Since I am OSAS I’ll not be left down here to cope all by my lonesome, for none in Him will remain. It will be very difficult for any but the 144,000 (of whom you may think you can be) to make it through that dispensation with Satan after you, and standing alone without the Holy Spirit in you. God is no respecter of persons now, and no one then being in the Body of Christ, He will have no respect for anyone then. Good Luck!

Besides, we’ll have front row seats, with much better views from up there watching what is going on. We have TV down here and get all kind of angles. Just think what must be awaiting us up there.

Christian faith, ituttut

 

MikeinGhana:

I have yet to see anyone on this thread present what I consider the main departures by Hyper Dispys from what Covenant Theology teaches. Since 1970, the BIG change in Disby doctrine
refers to those “taken” being a judgment on Unbelievers rather than the rapture of Believers!

My most sensitive point of difference with Pre-Trib Dispys centers on their claim that it is
Trib-Surviving Saints who will remain in their mortal bodies to populate the Kingdom!!

It seems we have a classic case of a Hyper (Ultra) Dispy engaged in this discussion: ituttut.
In his/her (?) view, the Body of Christ began with Paul’s conversion. In our last exchange of
views, this person denies that you and I are members of the Bride of the Lamb!!! In this thread on March 2, he/she writes: “It is so very hard to give up what they taught, John the Baptist, Jesus, Peter, John, James, and others of and for the nation Israel”.

This is about as Ultra as they come.

Their main departure denies that N T Saints since Pentecost (or since the Damascus Road)
are members of the “same building” with O T Saints as taught by Paul in Eph.2 and 3. They
deny that the mostly Gentile Church is being “grafted into the same Olive Tree” with
O T Saints because of the Cross. The only difference is that Christ is the Cornerstone of this ONE BUILDING while the foundation of the Church is Christ and the foundation of the ONE BUILDING is the Apostles and Prophets. John the Baptist is not allowed by Ultra Dispys to
be a member of the Church because he died before Pentecost. To be consistent, ituttut has
evidently chosen to exclude even Stephen as a member of the Church, the Body of Christ.

Their second great departure from Reformed Doctrine states that God postponed dealing with
ethnic Israel as of the Cross when they rejected Christ as their king; but they will be reinstated as God’s people when Christ returns. However, they are inconsistent by assuming that God will stop dealing with the Church seven years prior to the SC and therefore must take the Church to heaven prematurely.

The dispute between Charles H. Spurgeon and Darby was most heated over this very departure.
Spurgeon maintained that Israel was a separate people of God whose kingdom will be restored but that O T saints are in the same Body with saved Gentiles. The controversy between them was fierce because Darby denied that saved Gentiles are equal members with the Jewish "seed of Abraham" by Faith! Obviously Spurgeon did not totally accept the Reformed doctrine.

Reformed theology errs by claiming the Church is “Israel”, in Rom.11:26, and therefore most
of them are Amillers or Postmillers.

I am Dispensational in recognizing there is a difference in God’s way of dealing with mankind
and especially with restored (ethnic) Israel when Christ appears. I believe the Bride of the Lamb will include all those OT and NT saints whose garments are washed in the blood of the Lamb UP TO THE DAY Christ returns. All Israel then will be saved; but not as members of His Bride!!

I believe the “nations that are saved during the Millennium” (Rev.21:24-26) will “inherit the
kingdom on the new earth forever” as Jesus taught in Matt.25:32-34. I believe there is a gap
of 1000 years between the time He comes to “sit on His throne” (Vs.31) and the time to cast
the goat nations into Hell after the Millennium. So there will be a separate people of God in the
dispensation of the “fulness of times” who must continue to be “healed by the leaves of the
tree of life” whenever they “bring their glory into the holy city”. Rev.21:24-26; Ezek.47:12; Rev.22:2,14.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

I hope there are some anti-dispies reading this.
The anti-dispies want to paint all dispies the same
color with one stroke of the paint brush.
What anti-dispies end up doing is creating a strawman
that nobody believes then destroyes it. Then the anti-dispies
pat themselves on the back and tell each other "well done,
my good and and faithful lacky."

Anyway, any thinking anti-dispy (this may be an oxymoron) should
be able to see there are various and sundry dispy doctrines.

BTW, anti-dispies are largely anti-Baptists. Baptists believe
we should get our doctrines straight from the Bible BY OURSELVES.
How do you deal with folks like the posters here who get their
Dispy Doctrine by themselves from the Scripture?

Here is my unnamed Dispy Doctrine:

The N.T. uses the word 'dispensation' sometimes, it is a translation
of a Greek word from which we get our English word 'economy'.

Here is some features of God's economy:

Sin is temporal, salavation is eternal.
The blind see.
The deaf hear.
The lame leap like deer.
The despised are exhalted.
There is plenty of room at God's table - in God's family
(Whosoever will may come).

The only people I had more fun arguing with
than anti-dispies were the
'revelationarly athiests'. You know, revelationarly athiests
are folks to whom God appeared personally and give them undebatable
proof that He does NOT exist.

 

MikeinGhana,

Paul does not say that OT saints belong to the
Church whose "foundation is Jesus Christ". Paul
does say that "we gentiles are joint-heirs and
joint-heirs and of the SAME Body" but that this
truth has been made known only since Eph.3:5-6.

This ONE Body has a different foundation than
that of the Church, i.e., the "apostles and
the prophets". In this BUILDING, Christ is not
the foundation; but the "cornerstone". Eph.1:20.

Looking at both groups of "people" Peter states
that we are NOW "a people of God". I Pet.2:10.
(Greek text only).

But Heb.8:8-10 states that the "TIME is coming when God will make a NEW Covenant with the two Houses of Israel AND Judah, and that under it, His former people will become "A people of God."
(Again, Greek text only).

Obviously, AT THE PRESENT TIME, this NEW
Covenant is NOT in effect for both houses of
Israel and Judah. Therefore, what Covenant
theology fails to realize is that the New
Covenant in Christ's blood (Luke 22) is NOT
the same Covenant!!

Reformed doctrine sees this prophecy already
being fulfilled in the Church. Dispies, in
trying legitimately to preserve the full futuricity of God's promise to Abraham, fail to see that the "future" of Israel's Kingdom awaits the return of Christ WITH ALL the Saints; including every Believer from the time of Adam.

Dispies deny the "gathering of ALL the Saints from the earth to heaven after the tribulation" and thus reject the ONENESS of the BODY of Old and New Testament Saints. Mark 13:27. (You will not find a single any-moment rapture book (to my knowledge) that explains Mark 13:27 in the light of the "great trumpet" of Matt.24:31).

Hyper-Dispies like ituttut deny that Stephen
and John the Baptist will receive glorified
bodies at the "resurrection and gathering of
all the saints on the last day". John 6:38-40.
He/she even denies we are part of the Bride of
the Lamb that will dwell forever in the New
Jerusalem.

I am a Dispy with respect to the "restoration"
of ethnic Israel as of the S.C. I do not accept
the teaching that God must "stop dealing" with
the Church at the beginning of the tribulation
because it's not mentioned from Rev.4 to Rev.20

The only way of salvation in both the Old and
New dispensations is through faith in Christ.
Under the New Covenant of Heb.8:8-10, a restored
people of Israel and Judah will fulfill Zech.
8:23 and Zech.14 and Ezek.39 and other passages that eveyone will "know the Lord from the least
to the greatest".

My strongest objection to Dispy beliefs is that
Trib-Surviving Saints must be "left behind" in
mortal bodies to populate the kingdom of Israel!

My next great objection to their doctrine is that "sheep and goat nations" will be separated at the start of Christ's reign instead of at the end; the only time at which false worships of
God will be "cast into hell". AND the only time
AFTER which "sheep nations will inherit the
earth is when God creates the new earth!!!!!

Dispies are trying to "save" a part of Covenant
theology that unites all Believers in the same
spiriual BODY (A Holy Temple unto the Lord;
Eph.2:21 and IN THE PROCESS deny that the NEW

 

MikeinGhana, Continued

Dispys deny that NEW Covenant blessings must wait until Christ comes "WITH ALL the Saints". They sacrifice the teaching of Paul in I Thess.
3:13 and 2 Thess.1:4-11 that Christ is coming
for those who show themselves "worthy of Him"
and that this coming must be the "SAME DAY"
that He destroys those who disobey the Gospel.

Mike, I think I am the only Dispy who believes
the Day of Wrath (and therefore the Day of the
Lord) must be fulfilled in a single 12-Hour Day.
This basic thesis is the only possible way to
fulfill the 100 verses in Revelation that reveal Christ preparing to come in glory to reward every believer (Matt.16:27; Rev.22:12) and coming in power WITH ALL the Saints to "distroy the wicked on the day He is revealed" AND to
rescue those who "mourn and beg to escape all
those things happening on the day that comes as
as snare on all the inhabitants on the face of
all the earth; when they are saying `peace and
safety'". Luke 17:33; Luke 17:27-30; Luke 21:33-36; I Thess.5:2-3.

Pre-Wrath doctrine, instead of identifying the
Day of the Lord's wrath with great tribulation
of 1260 days, claim the Rapture occurs before the Trumpets and/or before the Plagues. They
do not recognize that "no one can enter the
Temple in heaven until 7th plague empties"!
Rev.15:8.

I have written all this as fast as I can type
because of needing to be at Church, First
Baptist of Norfold, VA. I may need to make
some further remarks; but wait to hear from you.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Mike,

The Pre-Trib theory that Trib-Surviving Saints
must remain on earth to populate the Kingdom of
Israel ignores the word of God that those who
are left of the nations that come against Israel (at Armageddon) must come to Jerusalem and that
Gentiles, at a ratio of ten gentiles to one Jew, come to worship God at Jerusalem. Zech.8:20-23

Who are the "ten" to-one groups that ask Jews to take them to worship God if these groups of "ten" are already Christians?

How long will it take for millions of Gentiles
to be born to Christians who rebel against the Lord and have to be "ruled with an iron rod"?

Why did Jesus say that "wherever there are two
workers in the field or at the mill, ONE will
be left"? What is the potential number of
UNbelievers "left behind" if half the tribes
of earth "beg for mercy and escape God's wrath
and stand before the Son of Man"? Luke 21:36.

We are being taught by the Dispies that every
one who takes the mark of the Beast will perish.
We are fed the idea that "God will send a lie
to all mankind" so that they cannot be saved.

For the first 70 years of the 20th Century, they
claimed the ones "taken" in the rapture required that the ones "left" will be UNbelievers. They
changed this teaching so that UNbelievers are
"taken in judgment" and the Believers "Left" to
populate the Kingdom.

Why did they change? Because they refused to
accept that the Rapture of the Elect "from earth to heaven" will occur, as Jesus taught, "in the
days after the great tribulation". Mark 13:27.

By requiring the one "taken" to refer to the
UNbelievers who are killed rather than Believers
who are raptured, the NEW DISPY DOCTRINE (as of about 1970) requires that Christians who "are willing to die and be kept alive" (Luke 17:33) will be "LEFT" behind to populate the Kingdom.

All Beast-worshippers must die in their view ... whether they beg for mercy or not. In fact, they insist it's the Christians who must "pray to escape all these things in order to stand before the Son of Man". Luke 21:36.

They try to "reinforce" this unsupportable doctrine by claiming the Rapture cannot occur after the great tribulation because it must be a time when men are saying: "peace and safety".

Who will populate the Kingdom? The Jews who
"mourn", at least 5 million according to Zech.13:
8-9 and Rom.11:26 will be saved to help populate
the Kingdom. But the "tribes of earth" include
the descendants of Ishamael's Twelve Tribes.

If one of every TWO Arabs bow to Christ and beg for mercy, and realize they deserve to die, there would instantly be a "ten-to-one" ratio of
Gentiles (50 million) to Jews (5 million) who populate the Kingdom and who ask the Jews to "take them to worship God" and fulfill the final prayer of the Martyrs in song. Rev.15:4

Numerically, the only way that countless numbers of UNbelievers can be born to populate the earth and be deceived by Satan at the End of the Millennium is for millions of UNbelievers to be left behind because they "pray to escape and are kept alive" as Jesus urged and promised. Luke
21:36 and Luke 17:33.

Neither Covenant theology nor the Dispy doctrine
allows that God will "relent to punish" all
UNbelievers when Christ appears if they are
"willing to die and beg (Greek) to escape all
the things coming on all the inhabitants on all
the face of all the earth on the Day that comes
SUDDENLY AS A SNARE". Luke 21:34-35 and I Thess.
5:3.

These verses reveal the time for saying "peace and safety" is when the Beast kills the two Prophets and his armies cross the Euphrates
River as the False Prophet performs signs and
wonders ... including the (claimed) drying up
of that River on the way to destroy Israel!!

Just as Paul teaches that Christ will come WITH
ALL the Saints, and as Daniel predicts in
the chapter that includes the word "saints"
(more times than any chapter in the Bible), SO the Lord Himself states that "He will raise up every believer on the last day and gather these elect from earth to heaven" moments before He sends the angels at the 3rd sound of the LAST TRUMP to "gather them out of the four winds from all extremities of the heavenS". John 6:38-40; Mark 13:27; Matt.24:31.

OH, the one critical note that was changed in the Scofield Bible in late editions is that the "elect" of Matt.24:31 who are "gathered
from the extremities of the heavens" refers to the JEWS "re-gathered" to Palestine.

They decided they did not need to teach that
the Jews are "re-gathered from the heavenS after the great tribulation" if Christians are "left behind" to populate the Kingdom.

This was a NEW Doctrine even to Dispy teachers
... that is, new when they switched from the teaching that those "taken" are UNbelievers rather than Believers being "taken" in the Rapture!

They did not change the doctrine of Israel being
"regathered" to Palestine. They simply changed the note from referring to the "elect" of Matt. 24:31 so that it refers to "this generation" in
Matt.24:34!! How subtle!! Since I was taught the Doctrine in the thirties, I know exactly why they kept the "note" but no longer required the
Jews to be "taken from earth to heaven" as Jesus
states in the parallel of Mark 13:27.

Mike, IMO, that is why no "Rapture Book" ever
mentions the relation of the Elect in Mark 13:27 to these same Elect in Matt.24:31. Read both
carefully and you will see that millions will
remain alive to mourn and beg for mercy while the Angels gather the Elect together "ABOVE from around the globe UNTO Jesus at the Synagogue in the Sky"!! 2 Thess.2:1.

But I believe Israel once again will become "A
people of God" and fulfill the O T prophecies.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Noticed my name included in this post.

We go back to Christ from heaven revealing to Paul his gospel. This is where we find out about our “being caught up in the air” to be with Him. If we are not then we will have to go through the Great tribulation. I don’t see how that is a departure for how is it possible to believe in the “rapture”, and not believe those not in His Body will go into the Tribulation?

Did I say that?

God love you for connecting me with Paul. There are so very many that love to quote Paul, but really don’t believe that he is the Apostle to the Gentile (and the Jew), today.

Please get your facts straight. The Body of Christ became known when Christ Jesus revealed it, which doesn’t mean it did not start before. Did you know anything about the “Body of Christ” before you read the Epistles of Paul? If so, please show scripture of understanding, along with knowledge of the “rapture”; How about salvation through faith? You can spend the rest of your life in His Word and you will not find these and other things until revealed to us by Christ Jesus from heaven.

Please try and understand what the “unsearchable riches of Christ” means. It means there is no trace, no footsteps; beyond finding out unless He tells us. Think man! How do you know what you know now? Where did you read things that you quote? If you say the Apostle John, we have to understand that John was not allowed to write His gospel until years after Paul had died. The things John wrote were already known. John’s Gospel, is for the same reason as Peter being sent to Cornelius, the first Gentile Peter ever preached to, and evidently the last for he made agreement with Paul that He would not preach to them. God sent Peter to the first Gentile, with the “grace commission” in order for Israel to believe Paul was the Apostle to the Gentile. The same goes for the Gospel of John. Peter himself says Paul has wisdom beyond all the others, and Peter wrote his books also about 20 or 30 years before John.

I’m sure I wrote that for it makes sense to me, but out of context. I’m sure I’m now much deeper into hell in your view. Why not wait until we are like “Him”, and then you can do your judging.

You make "Ultra" sound like a curse word, to pair with that terrible word Dispensation. I hope you are not condemning (?) to hell for (?)doesn't believe what Mel believes. You may find we as Baptist do believe alike in what is important, and that is “believing on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation”. You work out your salvation, and I will work out mine. I am in the Body of Christ my friend, and if you don’t believe Christ Jesus from heaven, I can’t speak for you.

Do you only believe Jesus the man that died on the Cross? Is He not today alive sitting by His Father in Heaven? Did he speak to anyone from heaven, after being seated next to His Father? We know He did and He spoke to more than one person, and they were on different matters. It is up to us to “study His Word” if we wish to make ourselves “approved”.

You evidently don’t believe in the “rapture”, which is fine. Those in the “Body of Christ” will be taken even though they don’t understand.

Well, you know I’m neither.

The Lamb died for whom He came for. Are we saved “along with Israel”, His first Love? Are, or we saved “apart” from Israel as He takes us into His body today? If not “apart” then are we not all today “Jews”? God forbid, for we will “hear” the gospel of Christ from heaven, for His own said “crucify Him; crucify Him”. No thanks, I don’t want any part of that. They are His people and He has not forgotten them, and He loves them for He is coming back for them. What love He has for her that worships other gods and goes whoring after them.

It seems we all see different things in His Word. The “discussions” have been going on for centuries, and someone is right and someone is wrong. I try to concentrate on how I am affected. When I do I see all in the Body of Christ are affected in the same way. We will be with Him, and be as He, and where He is. Since He is the Temple, are we not in that Temple?

The Book of Daniel, and Revelation is for us all to read, but both Books are written for the benefit of Gods nation, Israel. We today are in the book of Revelation, but not seen for this book is about God and His people. He is not coming back for us, but for Israel, and to deal further with Satan.

Christian faith, ituttut