Hyper-Dispensationalism

Ituttut writes:

"The Book of Daniel, and Revelation is for us all to read, but both Books are written for the benefit of Gods nation, Israel. We today are in the book of Revelation, but not seen for this book is about God and His people. He is not coming back for us, but for Israel, and to deal further with Satan. "

Not so fast, here. I just checked to make sure.
Somehow, that didn't sound quite right.
It wasn't.

Rev. 1:4 says "John, to the seven churches"; it doesn't say it was written to or for the benefit of Israel, although 'All Scripture is profitable, God-breathed-out, etc.'

I'm also pretty sure Paul speaks somewhere to the effect of the Lord's return, and Israel isn't in view.

Just settin' the record straight; too sleepy to do more, here>

Ed

 

Ituttut,

We agree on one thing, i.e., that Christ is coming to redeem and restore His former
people, Israel.

But I consider your quote to be total heresy:
________________________________________________
"We today are in the book of Revelation, but not seen for this book is about God and His people. He is not coming back for us, but for Israel".
________________________________________________
Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Ituttut,

In order to appreciate the great change made by Dispies in the 70's, I suggest you need to seek to understand what really happened. Your quote makes me realize this need:
_______________________________________________
"We go back to Christ from heaven revealing to Paul his gospel. This is where we find out about our “being caught up in the air” to be with Him. If we are not then (raptured) we will have to go through the Great tribulation. I don’t see how that is a departure for how is it possible to believe in the “rapture”, and not believe those not in His Body will go into the Tribulation"?
_______________________________________________

The departure of Pre-Trib Doctrine from what
they had taught for the first 50 years of my
life was an 180-degree reversal of emphasis.

Until the 70's they taught that "one will be taken" in the rapture BEFORE the start of the Great Tribulation and UNbelievers will be left
behind!!

Then they suddenly switched to UNbelievers being "taken in judgment" during the Great Tribulation while Believers who missed the Pre-Trib Rapture will be "left behind" and if they survive to the End will "populate the kingdom".

The entire Pre-Trib Doctrine is based on a
twofold phase to the Second Coming. They did
this by saying the "Day that no one knows" requires a Pre-Trib Rapture Day rather than being a Post-Trib Day of Rapturing the Saints and Destroying the wicked.

But in the 70's they realized the contradiction
of "two" stages for the second coming. They
kept the idea of an "any-moment" rapture based
on "no one knowing the day"; but adapted to
the reality that the wicked will not be "taken
in judgment" totally until Christ comes WITH the Saints. (They conveniently neglected to include that He is coming with ALL the Saints).

This is when they changed the footnote about
"re-gathering the (elect) Jews to Palestine"
from Matt.24:31 to Matt.24:34. This avoided
their problem of seeing the JEWS "gathered
together above from the earth" (Mark 13:27)
while (elect) Believers are LEFT BEHIND!!

PRESTO! The Jews of "this generation" could
be "re-gathered" to Israel without having to
be "gathered together above from the earth"
to fulfill Mark 13:27 and then Matt.24:31!!!

Since then the Pre-Wrath doctrine has shifted
from identifying the great tribulation as the
Day of the Lord to that of claiming only the 7 Trumpets and/or 7 Plagues are part of the Day of the Lord. They shift the time for God's wrath from the Seals to the Trumpets or the Plagues.

What neither Pre-Trib nor Pre-Wrath doctrines
acknowledge is that "no one can enter the
Temple in heaven until the (smoke clears and) last plague has emptied in the air". Rev.15:8.

Therefore, no one can be raptured and taken
bodily to meet their loved ones in the Temple
until the 7th Plague empties on the last day!!

Perhaps you can begin to appreciate the fact
that Jesus revealed the rapture taking place
(after the great tribulation) long before Paul
added that the "dead in Christ will rise first".
The Dead in Christ, my friend, includes all who
believe in Him from Adam to the last one saved during the great tribulation!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Noticed my name included in this post.

We go back to Christ from heaven revealing to Paul his gospel. This is where we find out about our “being caught up in the air” to be with Him. If we are not then we will have to go through the Great tribulation. I don’t see how that is a departure for how is it possible to believe in the “rapture”, and not believe those not in His Body will go into the Tribulation?

Did I say that?

God love you for connecting me with Paul. There are so very many that love to quote Paul, but really don’t believe that he is the Apostle to the Gentile (and the Jew), today.

Please get your facts straight. The Body of Christ became known when Christ Jesus revealed it, which doesn’t mean it did not start before. Did you know anything about the “Body of Christ” before you read the Epistles of Paul? If so, please show scripture of understanding, along with knowledge of the “rapture”; How about salvation through faith? You can spend the rest of your life in His Word and you will not find these and other things understood until revealed to us by Christ Jesus from heaven.

Please try and understand what the “unsearchable riches of Christ” means. It means there is no trace, no footsteps; He is beyond finding out unless He tells us. How do you know what you know now? Where did you read things that you quote? If you say the Apostle John, we have to understand that John was not allowed to write His gospel until years after Paul had died. The things John wrote were already known to the Gentiles, and believed by some Jews. John’s Gospel, is for the same reason as Peter being sent to the Cornelius, the first Gentile that Peter every preached to, and evidently the last for he made agreement with Paul that He would not preach to them. God sent Peter to the first Gentile, with the “grace commission” in order for Israel to believe Paul was the Apostle to the Gentile. The same goes for the Gospel of John. Peter himself says Paul has wisdom beyond all the others, and Peter wrote his books also about 20 or 30 years before John.

I’m sure I wrote that for it makes sense to me, but out of context. I’m sure I’m now much deeper into hell in your view. Why not wait until we are like “Him”, and then you can do your judging.

Looks as if you are trying to convince others to also condemn (?) to hell for (?) doesn’t believe what Mel believes. You may find we as Baptist do believe alike in what is important, and that is “believing on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation”. Are you now tacking onto, that we all must believe as you? You work out your salvation, and I will work out mine. I am in the Body of Christ my friend, and if you don’t believe Christ Jesus from heaven, I can’t speak for you.

Do you only believe Jesus the man that died on the Cross? Is He not today alive sitting by His Father in Heaven? Did he speak to anyone from heaven, after being seated next to His Father? We know He did and He spoke to more than one person, and they were on different matters. It is up to us to “study His Word” if we wish to make ourselves “approved”.

 

Knowledge from God in this.

Christian faith, ituttut

 

Revelation 22:6 speaks in Hebrew terms of prophecy, as does the Book. ”And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.”

Scripture indicates we are “sons” of God, Now. Revelation 21:7 indicates those in the Tribulation “that overcome” will be “called sons”, and He will be their God. But until then they are called “servants” in this book of prophesy, Revelation 22:16-21.

We do live in a mysterious time, for we today in His Body are not identified in past prophecy, or future prophecy, but we are identified Now. Now is the time of salvation.

Past my bedtime,

Christian faith, ituttut

 

Check out this poll:
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/3519.html

help demolish a strawman

 

Ed,

Ituttut's response shows he/she doesn't even
understand that you and Revelation are talking
about US. It's useless to respond because
this person does not recognize we are both
sons and servants in the Book of Revelation
and denies we are in the Bride of the Lamb!!

Mel

 

When He left the earth He was exiled to heaven. While there He is reconciling the world unto Himself, and we will be taken at the rapture. When he comes back for His people, we will be in heaven with Him. He left, as His people did not want Him as their King. He is coming back for them.

What is it you don't believe. That of the "rapture"?

Christian faith, ituttut

 

exiled to heaven???

 

standingfirminChrist,

ituttut's doctrine has no place for us in the
Plan of God for His People when Christ appears.
______________________________________________
"Revelation is about God and His people. He is not coming back for us, but for Israel".
______________________________________________

And so, out of desperation, she/he now wonders
whether it is I who doesn't believe in the Rapture?! LOL.

Mel

 

Isn’t that what His Word teaches for those in the Body of Christ, i.e. we will be “caught to Him in the air? Do you believe only the Old Testament?

Those that are “caught up” are the OSAS, and others that are left simply “miss the boat”. Now is the day of salvation, for tomorrow it may be too late.

All “dispensationalists” are pre-trib. As you cannot correctly see a “dispensation”, you are unable to determine what we are seeing. If you cannot divide” out, then all remains “jumbled” for you.

There has always been one theme from the dispensational gospel that Christ gave to Paul, and it is in this “dispensation” of God we are saved by grace, through faith, being OSAS into the Body of Christ. Those in the Body of Christ (all those that are saved by believing on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to save them) will be “caught up to Him in the air”, and those left go into the Great Tribulation period.

As we will be “ruptured” (not before known) before the Great Tribulation we could well be with Him when He returns for those of earth. This has not changed, and cannot for it is the “will of God”.

I believe you have some group mixed up with we Christians.

You make the error of not believing Christ from heaven. It is with little comfort you present your view. Paul doesn’t wish you to remain ignorant of the fact that you will escape the “great tribulation”. The shout we will hear in I Thessalonians 4 was not in prophecy, and is not in prophecy for we will be gone when the “last trump” of the angel sounds.

You have the “trumpets” of the angels in Matthew 24:30-31, mixed up with the “voice of Christ”, as shown in Revelation 1:10, ”I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet. The last trumpet you identify with is an angel with a trumpet. Just as Jesus cried with a loud voice for Lazarus to come forth (John 11:43), so it will be. It is not an angel that calls us forth with a trumpet, but our Lord Jesus Christ. A lot of people say they know His name, but it is more important that He knows our name.

”But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words”, I Thessalonians 4:13.

You’re understanding is of misery and pain to go through Great tribulation; not of comfort and rejoicing forever more.

Christian faith, ituttut

 

Why do you misread my posts, and then issue false statements?

Have you never read Galatians 4:7? It is not hard to understand – ”Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.” We are no longer under the Law of ordinances, treated as servants, but while serving Him we are now sons.

I told you exactly what you believe, and you just confirmed it, yet you continue in untruths.

I recognized YOU (not EdEdwards) wish in Revelation to be a servant under the law, and then a son. How was this possible? Because you have told me, and confirmed here that you evidently think you will go through the “great tribulation”. I am not saying you will, or you won’t, but that is what you say you believe. All I do is agree with you and then you “bad mouth” me for you must “hate” those that believe Christ gave to Paul a “dispensational” gospel.

Quoting from my post to which you refer. Quote – “Revelation 22:6 speaks in Hebrew terms of prophecy, as does the Book. And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.”

”Scripture indicates we are ‘sons’ of God, Now. Revelation 21:7 indicates those in the Tribulation ‘that overcome’ will be ‘called sons’, and He will be their God. But until then they are called ‘servants’ in this book of prophesy, Revelation 22:16-21." Unquote

The law is in effect during the tribulation, and today it is not, for it is of Grace that comes to us through Jesus Christ.

Christian faith, ituttut

 

ituttut versus Jesus:

ituttut disagrees with Jesus that "He will gather
the elect from earth to heaven AFTER the great
tribulation" Mark 13:24-27.
______________________________________________

Here is how the Dispies disagreed with Jesus
prior to the 70's:

"Until the 70's they taught that `one will be taken' in the rapture BEFORE the start of the Great Tribulation and UNbelievers will be `left
behind'"!

ITUT agrees with this former Dispy contradiction of Jesus by saying we will be "taken BEFORE" the great tribulation; not AFTER as Jesus taught! He/she agrees with the OLD pre-seventies' theory:
_______________________________________________

"Isn’t that what His Word teaches for those in the Body of Christ, i.e. we will be “caught to Him in the air? Do you believe only the Old Testament"?
_______________________________________________

Why do you suddenly retrocede to the O T ?????

I believe what Jesus and Paul taught. Paul
taught "by the word of the Lord that we who are alive and remain until the Presence of the Lord

(which he said is after tribulation when He comes to deliver us and destroy the wicked "on that day" 2 Thess.1:4-11)

we will be caught up together with the Dead in Christ to meet them in the air". [Trib-Martyrs are among the "Dead in Christ" and we will meet them at His Presence after the tribulation]!

Trib-Saints "die in the Lord". Rev.14:13.
Trib-Martyrs "will come with Jesus". I Th.3:14.

ITUT evidently agrees with Dispy doctrine prior
to the 70's before that theory underwent a sudden 180-degree switch so that the ones TAKEN are no longer Believers caught up BEFORE the great tribulation BUT are instead the wicked TAKEN in judgment both during and AFTER the great tribulation!

So ITUT disagrees with the NEW Dispy theory as well as with Jesus Himself ... being a Dispy of the old doctrine that claims Believers will be TAKEN *before* instead of *after* the great tribulation and at the same time denies their new doctrine that Believers after the Rapture will be LEFT to populate the Kingdom for 1000 years ... if they survive.

This incongruous theory would reward faithful Martyrs with "serving God in the temple of heaven for 1000 years" (Rev.7:15-17; 20:4) while demoting faithful survivors to the inglorious duty of bearing children for the 1000-Year Kingdom Dispy.

Both theories contradict the literal words of
Jesus that "He will raise up all believers on
the last day and gather these elect from the
earth to heaven" and,

"while the tribes of earth mourn and beg to escape and to be kept alive and to stand before
the Son of Man,

"He will send the angels to gather us (the elect) out of the 4 winds from all extremities of the heavenS (pl)". John 6:40; Matt.24:30; Luke 21:36; 17:33; Mark 13:24-27; Matt.24:29-31.

Disagree with Jesus to deny the truth. Disagree with both Paul and Jesus to create confusion.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

In the rapture, (day of Christ) Jesus (Bridegroom) comes "HIMSELF" to receive the church. (His Bride)

The "SAVED" leave the earth meeting Jesus in the air.


At the "end of the world" (Day of the Lord) the "ANGELS" are the "REAPERS", not Jesus.

The Unsaved leave the earth.

Mt 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Jesus reaps the Saved.
Angels reap the unsaved.

I'd suggest a study of the "Differences" between the rapture and "end of the world".

Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: (Jesus/Church/Lamb's marriage supper)

(during the trib period)

 

Me4Him,

Your following statement is unBiblical in
relation to reaping the earth "first" and also in gathering the Elect above:
_______________________________________________
"At the "end of the world" (Day of the Lord) the "ANGELS" are the "REAPERS", not Jesus".
_______________________________________________

"First", the Son of Man will Himself "reap the earth" before the angels "collect the wicked into the winepress of God's great anger". Rev.14:15-19; Matt.13:30.

Also, the angels will "collect these sons of Satan" (the tares) to the winepress before Jesus
"gathers the elect from earth to heaven".

Jesus stated that "He Himself will gather the
elect from earth to heaven (3rd person sing.
in Mark 13:27) and then He will send the angels to gather them out of all 4 extremities of the heavenS" ... while the tribes of earth mourn and pray to escape and to be kept alive and to prevail to stand before the Son of Man". Mark 13:27; Matt.24:30-31; Luke 21:36; Luke 17:33.

Please study the Greek text more carefully to
realize that Jesus FIRST is the Great Reaper
of the wicked (symbolically) and then He is the literal Reaper of the Elect from earth!

Jesus reveals this truth. Paul adds that "God
will bring the dead in Christ (including the
Trib-Martyrs who die in the Lord) "with Jesus". I Thess.4:13-14; Rev.14:13; Rev.17:14.

Therefore, Jesus not only brings ALL the Saints
with Him (I Thess.3:13) but, by His own act,
raises up every believer and gathers all the
saints from the earth "on one of the days after the great tribulation"! John 6:40; Mark 13:27.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Mel Miller: //ituttut versus Jesus:

//ituttut disagrees with Jesus that "He will gather
the elect from earth to heaven AFTER the great
tribulation" Mark 13:24-27.//

Sorry, Mel Miller must disagree with Jesus.
Jesus did NOT say "He will gather
the elect from earth to heaven AFTER the great
tribulation"

That is Mel Miller's understanding of what Jesus said.

Mark 13:24a (KJV1769):
But in those days, after that tribulation, ...

How far down does Jesus delineate events that
happen "after that tribulation"?
Your answer is YOUR OPINION.
Unfortunately, your opinion that Mark 13:27 is included,
leads to all kinds of contradictions.
It is much better to make a guess that the 'after that
tribulation' events only go to the end of verse 26.

The Greek provides a clue that somewhere there is a
KAI (and, and then, and when, after, but, etc) that
seperates one part from the other. The Greek KAI is
used here both to compound verbs, compound nouns,
compound phrases, and as a polysendton connector.

 

Ed,

You state: "Sorry, Jesus did NOT say `He will gather the elect from earth to heaven AFTER the great tribulation'". Mark 13:24-27.

I refuse to humiliate Jesus by accepting your
refusal to agree He will "gather the elect from
earth to heaven after the great tribulation"!

Neither I nor Jesus gave the "number of days" AFTER the tribulation before He will gather the elect from earth to heaven. He simply said it
will happen "in the days AFTER the tribulation" and in Matt.24:29-31 that "the angels will gather them out of all extremities of the heavenS immediately after the tribulation."

Are you attempting to change the word of the Lord or are you outright saying Jesus will NOT "gather the elect from earth to heaven
after the great tribulation?"

The Greek, which you mention, states that Jesus
Himself, 3rd person singular, "will gather the
elect from the extremities of earth to the
extremities of heaven in the days after the
triulation". Mark 13:24,27.

We seek to honor Jesus and His word. Only you have questioned what He said by implying the word "after" does not mean "after".
Mel