Hyper-Dispensationalism

Me4Him,

The 144,000 are the "Firstfruit unto God as
well as the Lamb". Rev.14:4.

The 144,000 are "redeemed from earth and from
among men". Rev.14:2-3.

"They follow the Lamb wherever He may go".
Rev.14:4.

This is the truth from Scripture.
You cannot deny they will be in heaven and
they are with Christ when He comes "with
ALL the Saints". I Thess.3:13.

Mel

 

Amen, Brother Mel Miller -- Preach it!

 

Amen, Brother Mel Miller -- Preach it! </font>[/QUOTE]Re 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Ro 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, (Jesus) so are the branches.

Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, (david/Jesus) which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. (MK)

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ,

The "Church" (body of christ) is Rapture to heaven, "BEFORE" the trib, no one goes except the "BODY OF CHRIST",

These that come during the trib are the firstfruit "TO" God "AND" Jesus.

being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Do you see the difference in the body of christ going to heaven (rapture) and other people coming up "TO MEET JESUS".

Isa 30:26 Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.

God use the AC as a "ROD" to chastise Israel for rejecting Jesus, this occur "DURING" the trib, those killed for the "testimony of Christ" go to "MEET" God/Jesus, as in not going "WITH JESUS" in the rapture.

As I've said, You have to separate the trinity to understand the scriptures.

As the feast show, Jesus is the "Firstfruit" to God, but the church is "HIS BODY", we are "HID", "IN CHRIST".

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.


Mt 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth,

 

Me4Him,

How do you "separate" the Trinity and what
does that have to do with the time when "ALL the Saints are gathered together above unto Jesus"?
[episunago & episunagog]. Mark 13:27; Matt.24:31 and 2 Thess.2:1.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

What does the trinity have to do with scripture, well, let's see.

Jews don't accept Jesus as the Messiah or God in the flesh, nor are they aware of the church age/rapture, (from scripture)

so they don't understand how/why the church will be rapture before the time described in the OT, whcih we know as the "Day of the Lord" or Jesus's physical return to end the world.

There's a gathering of the Church and one of Israel and they are not at the same time, and only the "TRINITY" will explain why.

 

Me4Him,

You did not answer my question on how your
so-called "separation" in the Trinity relates
to the time when "ALL the Saints are gathered
together above unto Jesus?" I Thess.3:13;
2 Thess.2:1; Mark 13:27; Matt.24:31. Each of
these verses concerns the "gathering together
of all the Saints at the Presence of Christ"!

Why do you introduce what the Jews don't know
as an argument that we must "separate" the
Trinity? I respectfully submit you need to advance to the Biblical, Christian view of the Trinity.

You divert from the question by introducing
what the Jews are not aware of. Do you
require the Jews to recognize Jesus as God
before you can answer my question?

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

I agree that “angels” will gather the Elect after the tribulation. Christ Jesus comes for we today in the Body of Christ before the tribulation.

Ed Edwards quote, and then my answer. Quote “ituttut probably does NOT agree with me regarding "the gathering is not after the tribualtion". Then quoting my reply ”Your words Ed E, "Jesus said He would gather the elect from earth to heaven BEFORE the Tribulation period." I agree you understand His Word perfectly in this matter.” Christ Jesus spoke these words from heaven to Paul, and Paul relays Christ’s message to us in I Thessalonians 4:16-17.

Matthew 14 and Mark cannot tell the “whole” story of all that will be raised for we today live in the New Testament (covenant), and not the Old Testament (two-way covenant). I believe “that generation” spoken of refers to the “generation” of those that made covenant with God, at God’s request. Just as we are not seen in prophecy of the Book of Revelation, neither was we seen, or acknowledged, of being equal with His sheep while Jesus lived as man on the earth in the Old Testament.

Compare your Matthew and Mark references with I Thessalonians. Do they not contradict? Who are we to believe “today”? Christ’s New gospel from heaven – II Corinthians 5:16-21.

I agreed to Ed Edwards overall understanding of our rapture. I can see how Ed E sees Matthew 31, and can see how you see. Ed Edwards understands He will be raptured “before” that tribulation, and I also believe that. But in my "dispensational" belief, I see differently, for I believe our being “caught up” was not revealed until after Damascus Road, just as the Body of Christ, and our salvation “through” faith were Unheard of. These are subjects Christ taught Paul, giving His gospel to Paul, just as He gave the Law to Moses. It was Moses’ Law, and today it is Paul’s gospel of salvation by Grace, through the faith of Jesus Christ.

Not so.

I’m sure the depth of knowledge of the Greek you both possess is greater than mine, so I’ll not take sides in the verses under discussion, for I don’t believe they are directed to us.

I see contradiction in both, as what is applicable to we today. But I see merit in each of your belief’s, so I can’t take sides for each of you are correct as to your understanding of these verses to fit your Pre or Post Trib.

Christian faith, ituttut

 

ituttut on Angels gathering the Elect:
______________________________________________
“I agree that “angels” will gather the Elect after the tribulation. Christ Jesus comes for we today in the Body of Christ before the tribulation”.

Compare your Matthew and Mark references with I Thessalonians. Do they not contradict?

I believe our being “caught up” was not revealed until after Damascus Road, just as the Body of Christ, and our salvation “through” faith were Unheard of. These are subjects Christ taught Paul ... the Body of Christ, and our salvation
“through” faith were Unheard of.
_______________________________________________

So, ituttut, you are saying what Christ taught Paul from heaven “contradicted” what He taught the disciples while He was on earth ... that
it was a "different" Gospel.

You have admitted that salvation was always by Faith. It was not a “different” Gospel. The promise of Jesus to “gather the Elect from earth to heaven by His own act AFTER the tribulation is not a “different” doctrine from what Paul
taught. The gathering of the Elect from earth
to heaven, and the part played by angels (plural), was NOT revealed TO Paul. Nor was it revealed BY Paul.

Jesus alone revealed that angels will “gather the Elect from all extremities of the heavenS after the great tribulation”. Paul only mentions the Archangel's voice (one angel) and the
trump of God (great trumpet of Matt.24:31 that sounds immediately after the great tribulation).

Paul repeated what Jesus taught, i.e., that “He will raise up all believers on the day of His
Presence and "God will bring the dead in Christ with Jesus.” Paul did NOT CONTRADICT Jesus. You suggest Paul did so in the quote above!

Then you categorically deny that Paul taught the same thing Jesus taught:

Quoting me, in two words, you categorically affirm Jesus did not teach He will “gather the Elect from earth to heaven after the great tribulation”:

I wrote:
______________________________________________
"Why didn’t Jesus say He will send the angels to gather the Elect from all extremities of the heavens BEFORE instead of AFTER tribulation”?
______________________________________________
You wrote: “Not so”.

Then you deny “taking sides”:

“I’ll not take sides in the verses under discussion, for I don’t believe they are
directed to us”. You have already “taken sides” by agreeing with Ed E that Jesus, in Mark 13:27 and Matt.24:31, did not teach He will “gather the
elect from earth AFTER the tribulation”.

Therefore, in your view, it is NOT God’s will for Jesus to raise up all believers on the last day. John 6:38-40. Jesus also “contradicted” Paul in this respect if you are consistent.

And Paul reveals a “different” time for “God to bring the dead in Christ with Jesus from heaven
in your view (Actually Paul agrees with Jesus that, “at His Presence, ALL the Saints will come with Jesus Christ”. I Thess.3:13. How can you
claim to uphold this truth unless Paul agrees
with Jesus 100 percent??

I repeat:

Quote:

"My friend, do you agree with Ed that not only Mark 13:27; but also Matt.24:31 refers to a Pre-Trib Rapture? And do you agree with Ed that my view leads to all kinds of contradictions?
_______________________________________________

You have added the statement that I Thess. 4
“contradicts” what Jesus taught!! Do you not only disagree with Ed E and me; but also say that Jesus disagrees with Paul?
_____________________________________________
Quote:
“I see contradiction in both (Ed and Mel), as what is applicable to we today. But I see merit in each of your belief’s, so I can’t take sides for each of you are correct as to understanding these verses to fit your Pre or Post Trib. Christian faith, ituttut
_______________________________________________

You have consistently “taken sides” against the continuity of the Gospel preached by Paul as being the “Gospel of grace through faith” that applies to all dispensations!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Israel (jews) don't accept Jesus's leadership, They aren't gather in the rapture, only "believers" in Jesus.

The trinity separates God/Israel, Jesus/Church, Day of Christ, (rapture), the reaping of the church and the Day of the Lord, Jesus return, reaping of the earth.

Your misunderstanding of scripture is why you think I'm "diverting", Jews won't accept the leadership of Jesus, that's proven, and God doesn't deal with them again until Jesus/church is "out of the way", that's a pre trib rapture, because the trib is the time God binds up the breach between him and Israel.

If you don't separate the trinity, and the church and Israel, you can't understand the scriptures, but at the same time, you have to uderstand they are ONE, just as the trinity.

The trinity explains the scriptures.

 

Mel Miller: //Ed E, by his own admission, dismisses what happens
in verse 27, “after the great tribulation, as mere
“guesswork”! Was Jesus just making a “guess”?//

I think you totally missed the whole line of my arugment.

1. "I don't believe in Dispensationalism" and
"I don't have a Dispensational Doctrine" are false statements.
It is like saying:
"I don't have an Eschalogical Doctrine" or "I don't believe
in Eschatological". Sorry every Christian saved person has
both a dispensatinal doctrine and an eschatological doctrine.

2. I ADMIT I 'guessed' - this is honest and straight forward.
Others (if the shoe fits, wear it) do NOT ADMIT they guessed,
but they did - this is hypocritical and dishonest.
If something is not stated clearly in the Bible, then one method
of figuring out what God would have us do is to use the
scriptures we do understand to develop general priniples which
can be applied to the case at hand.

Throughout the Bible I find that God cares for people most especially
His own people. THis is the general principle.
The specific principle is God won't let His Church go through
His Judgement on the world: the Tribulation Period.

Another example: the Bible doesn't mention smoking or not smoking
cigarettes. A general principle of the Bible is that we are to
take care of our God given body. the specific: 'Smoking' is NOT part
of the gerneral prinicple. Therefore we aught not to smoke.

Because it is NOT clear in the Bible when Jesus is going to come get us,
then one has to guess something like "I think He will come AFTER
the Tribulation Period" - if that leads to no contradictions, then
it might be right. BTW, I picked an example that contraditions other
Biblical principles all over the place.

Mel Miller: //My friend, do you agree with Ed that not only Mark 13:27;
but also Matt.24:31 refers to a Pre-Trib Rapture?//

Of course they speak of the same thing,
they are parallel passages about the same thing.
Both are the part about the gathering of the mostlygentile,
born-again, redeemed, Christian elect saints at the end of the Church Age
and right before the Tribulation Period. Both come from
a speach called the "Mount Olivet Discourse" (MOD) of Jesus. JEsus
was speaking on Mount Olivet to the disciples in the evening and teaching everybody
in the Temple during the day.
There should also be a parallel verse in Luke 17 (similiar sayings, but
not MOD) or Luke 21 (MOD)

After the fleeing (Luke 21:20-23)
it says that the holy city will be overrun by the gentiles
until the time of the gentiles be fulfilled.
IMHO this is a double fulfillment both in 67-70AD and
the future Tribulation Period. Matthew 24 says after the AOD
those in Judea (NOT THOSE IN AMERICAN, THOSE IN JUDEA) are
to flee to the hills/mountains. Then in Luke 21:25-27 is the
Glorious Second Coming. Oops, no mention of the gathering.
But look in Luke 21:36 where Jesus gives us hope that we can
avoid the troubles (tribulation) of that time: the Tribulation period.

BTW, the disciples quetion about the end of the age (the pretribulation
rapture ends the Time of the Gentiles/Church Afe) isn't in Luke
nor is the answer about the gathering - hummm ...

Mel Miller: //... "ALL the Saints are gathered
together above unto Jesus"?
[episunago & episunagog]. Mark 13:27; Matt.24:31 and 2 Thess.2:1//

Mark 13:37 is missing 'all'.
Matthew 24:31 does NOT contain the word 'all'.
2 Thess 2:1 is missing 'all'.
Neither of these three references contain the
world 'all', reference: KJV1769 Edition.

BTW, God has three kingdoms:
1. the spiritual kingdom inside the Church age elect saints
2. the physical millinnial Messanic Kingdom
3. the physical/spiritual Eternal 'new heaves and new earth' Kingdom

 

Friends,

I have lost interest in discussing Biblical
truths with one who teaches the word "after"
means "before" when Jesus uses that word
and/or when the "last" means "first" by
implication because a deaf person can't
hear the Last Trump until it sounds.

His type of discussion does not edify or
entertain anyone, IMO.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

I accept your concession speach.
I agree, you lost the debate.

 

Me4Him: //If you don't separate the trinity, and the church and Israel, you can't understand the scriptures, but at the same time, you have to uderstand they are ONE, just as the trinity.

//The trinity explains the scriptures.//

Amen, Brother Me4Him -- Preach it!

 

So God is a bigamist. Well I guess that is better than the Mormon's. I believe they make Him a polygamist!

 

We are to believe His Word on earth, and in heaven. As what Christ Jesus revealed to Paul was hidden in the “unsearchable riches of Christ”, how could Jesus contradict himself. As you do not believe this then you do contradict Jesus Christ. Yes there we two (2) gospels running simultaneously while the Apostles lived. Check it out. It is all in the Bible.

Yes it is by the grace of God by faith, and by the grace of God through faith. Two different gospels. One of John the Baptist of “repent and be baptized for the remission of sins” for the Jew, and for all today “by grace we are saved through faith, without we doing anything.

Then you agree with me that Paul says nothing about our being “caught up to Christ in the air” After the tribulation. Paul does not quote Matthew in this matter.

You are contradicting His Word again for Paul does not quote Matthew. Don’t you believe Paul when He says Christ taught him things not known to others. If Peter will acknowledge this, why won’t you? Why would John shake hands with Paul and say we’ll not go and preach our gospel to your Gentile’s?

What do you want me to say? To agree with you in speculation what Jesus “might” say?

I didn’t “deny” taking sides, I said “I’ll not take sides”. Why are you so vindictive? I said I would not take sides, and you are determined to force an issue I am not willing to give you. If I agree with His Word, and Ed E agrees with His Word, we are not taking sides against you. We are only agreeing with His Word. If you are “odd man out”, then live with it.

You continue to misapply scripture, and accuse wrongly. I believe what the verses say, and I know to whom He is talking. Jesus is talking and living in the Old Testament talking to those for whom He came. I am not living in the Old Testament or of that gospel to the Jew in that day.

Paul told us of the rapture, and here we see it also. His, those saints in the Body of Christ, which is we, is clearly shown here. Christ does not contradict.

Sorry you don’t see the truth presented. I believe in the “dispensational” gospel of Paul that Christ taught Him. You don’t, and it is that simple. You are not able to see what He will show you if you ask, if it is His will to do so.

Who is it that believes the gospel that Christ gave to Paul. You know it is not you, so it must be you who has “taken sides” of the earthly appointed Apostles gospel for the circumcised, against the heavenly appointed Apostle for both the uncircumcised, and the circumcised.

Christian faith, ituttut

 

Ituttut,

I must correct one of your mis-statements:

My quote:
---------------------------------------------
Jesus alone revealed that angels will “gather the Elect from all extremities of the heavenS after the great tribulation”. Paul only mentions the Archangel's voice (one angel) and the
trump of God (great trumpet of Matt.24:31 that sounds immediately after the great tribulation).
--------------------------------------------
Your Response to the above quote:

Then you agree with me that Paul says nothing about our being “caught up to Christ in the air” After the tribulation. Paul does not quote Matthew in this matter.
____________________________________________

I do NOT "agree with you that Paul says nothing
about being caught up to Christ in the air".

Paul quotes Jesus by referrring to "the word of the Lord" that He will "raise up every believer
to meet Him at His Presence on the last day"!!!
Paul simply adds that the Dead in Christ will
rise up FIRST. And they include Trib-Martyrs!!!

Be careful with the Word of the Lord or suffer!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net