MMF - Contemporary Music at Church

Weren't we created to worship God?

DON'T GO POSTAL ON ME! LoL

P.S. My FAV CCM artist is Carman! I especially love his "The Courtroom" YEEEHAWWW

"He worships while he grooves, she prays and barely moves,
but they're both reflecting pure devotion.
And some go for broke like headless chicken-folk"

"If you like contemporary worship music, interjected a little more randomly in the program, there's a church for you also . . . go and be happy!"

"Weren't we created to worship God?"

There is a church, not even a ten minute drive from here, called Victory Christian Center. It features every Sunday CCM rock bands and even a mosh pit. Let me ask:
1. Can you imagine the Lord Jesus Christ "moshing" to the beat of acid rock?
2. Can you imagine the Lord Jesus Christ worshiping to the beat of heavy metal?
3. Can you imagine the Lord Jesus Christ dancing to music of punk rockers?
4. Can you imagine the Lord Jesus Christ dancing to any kind of rock music at all?

The object of the Christian life is to be more like Christ, NOT more like the world.
"Weren't we created to worship God?" the question was asked. We were created to be an object of God's love, and in bestowing that love upon us we should be grateful enough to voluntarily offer up our worship and praise to Him.
What is worship? Is CCM worship? What really is worship? Do you know?
"Pure worship expresses adoration and veneration without making petition, and predicates self-renunciation and sacrificial giving to God. Strictly speaking, worship is the occupation of the soul with God Himself and does not include prayer for needs and thanksgiving for blessings.
Worship is represented in the Bible principally by two words: in the OT the Hebrew word 'shaha' (more than 100 times), meaning "bow down," "to prostrate oneself" (Gen.22:5; 42:6; 48:12; Ex.24:1; Jud.7:15; 1Sam.25:41; Job 1:20; Psa.22:27; 86:9, etc.), and in the NT the Greek word 'proskyneo' (used 59 times), meaning "to prostrate oneself," "do obeisance to another" (Mt.2:2,8,11; 4:9; Mk.5:6; 15:19; Lk.4:7,8; Jn.4:20-22, etc.). These two words are consistently rendered in the English versions by the word "worship," which in Old English was spelled "worthship," denoting the worthiness of the one receiving the special honor or devotion. The two terms "worthy" and "worship" may be seen together in the grand description of the 24 elders falling down before the One who sits on the throne (Rev. 4:10,11; 5:8-14)" (see Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia)

Does CCM really declare the worthiness of God, or does it glorify its artist and appeal to the flesh of both the entertainer and his/her audience?
Does CCM "worship" "express adoration and veneration without making petition, and predicates self-renunciation and sacrificial giving to God," or is CCM just out to make "the big bucks?" The Bible says "You shall know them by their fruits."

Worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness. (1 Chron. 16:29)
DHK

I can honestly say with out hesitation that ccm shows all the characters of worship shown above. As far as holding the singer high, that is the responsibility of the listener to put perspective in its place and make sure the singer is not as important as God is. I find it interesting when people pose questions of "Can you imagine Jesus dancing to Christian rock", if I could't imagine it I wouldn't do it myself. You see something in my heart strikes me to dance before Jesus, so moshing, dancing to acid rock or whatever, the point of the matter is my heart and what its saying to God as I am doing any such thing.-dar

Dear DHK,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Let me ask:
1. Can you imagine the Lord Jesus Christ "moshing" to the beat of acid rock?
2. Can you imagine the Lord Jesus Christ worshiping to the beat of heavy metal?
3. Can you imagine the Lord Jesus Christ dancing to music of punk rockers?
4. Can you imagine the Lord Jesus Christ dancing to any kind of rock music at all?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Could the skeptics of Jesus' day imagine:
1. Him eating with tax collectors?
2. Him healing on the sabbath?
3. He and His disciples gleaning on the sabbath?
4. Him touching lepers? (to heal them)

Food for thought!

Some CCM artists have led lost people to Christ at concerts and such! IMO it is not of the world, but in the world...if we want to reach and relate to the lost, they should also be able to relate to us in some way, and if CCM is a witnessing tool, why not utilize it? The ulitimate goal is to bring them to Christ.

BTW, when I first got saved I tuned in to a local CCM radio station that I found ONLY because of a bumper sticker I saw promoting the station while I was sitting in rush hour traffic. I was BORED and TIRED of secular music and it was so wonderful to find music that I could directly relate to and be edified (sp?) by! Praise the Lord for CCM, that is my HUMBLE opinion!

Kathy
&lt;&gt;&lt;

[ July 07, 2001: Message edited by: Kathy ]

"Could the skeptics of Jesus' day imagine:
1. Him eating with tax collectors?
2. Him healing on the sabbath?
3. He and His disciples gleaning on the sabbath?
4. Him touching lepers? (to heal them)"

I never said Jesus didn't associate with such people. He just never became "partaker of their evil deeds." He didn't live the average life of a tax collector, cheating and stealing, so that he could gain their respect and eat with them. He didn't become a leper in order to touch a leper. Likewise in our society, one doesn't have to become a drug addict to reach out to the drug addicts; you don't have to become a drunk to reach out to the drunks. And you don't have to use CCM to reach out to young people.

Quote:
" Some CCM artists have led lost people to Christ at concerts and such! IMO it is not of the world, but in the world...if we want to reach and relate to the lost, they should also be able to relate to us in some way, and if CCM is a witnessing tool, why not utilize it? The ulitimate goal is to bring them to Christ."

And some lost people have led others to the Lord Jesus Christ too? Does that make it the preferred method of the Lord Jesus Christ? I think not. The ultimate goal is to bring them to Christ. I agree. Please read your Bible. Show me one verse of Scripture where music is used to lead people to the Lord. Jesus never said. "Go ye unto all the world and sing CCM unto all nations." If he did you have a terribly different Bible than I.

Quote:
"I can honestly say with out hesitation that ccm shows all the characters of worship shown above. "
Then, I doubt if your being very honest. Let me repeat a small part of that quote:
"Pure worship expresses adoration and veneration without making petition, and predicates self-renunciation and sacrificial giving to God."
Some of those words may be hard for some to understand, but let me assure you that it is impossible for CCM to ascribe to that definition of worship, particularly concerning self-renunciation and sacrificial giving. Self renunciation--to renounce or deny yourself. That is to deny yourself of all worldly pleasures, in order that you may adore and ascribe praise to God.
I am crucified with Christ, Paul says, nevertheless I live... Gal. 2:20
In 1Cor.15:31 he says, "I die daily."
Jesus said, to "take up your cross, deny yourself, and follow me."
The Christian life is a life of death; death to self. The cross is somethng that people die on. Christ and two criminals died on crosses. Christ expects us to put to death our carnal natures, to deny ourselves, to crucify ourselves; and when I do that I separate myself from the world and its sin and folly.
CCM is simply imitating the world's ways. It is worldly music. It is of no spiritual value despite the message. Even the world questions, "Why do the Christians sing our music?" When the world can't differentiate between its own music and CCM, then something is desperately wrong.

DHK, I'm going to ignore the part where you feel you can see my heart and know if I'm being completely honest since you really cannot do that.

As to the characteristics of ccm compared to worshiping characteristics, I most certainly can see each one line up with each other. I would love to know how you personally know that ccm artists adopt the life styles of secular musicians such as sex, drugs and others? Do you live with them?

The bible never specifically says to use music to save the lost, but is says to compel them to come in. The argument is not that the music reaches them, it only draws them to be interested in the message which actually brings them to who Christ is and the salvation message. No, you don't "need" it to bring them to salvation, but it certainly works just like a pastors sermon or anything else you would use.

The attitudes that I have while listening to ccm are the following.

1 humility before God
2 love for God
3 worship and adoration for God
4 self sacrifice and change
5 burden to see lost get saved
6 celebration of Jesus and life in Christ
7 repentant heart of any sin in my life

These are the usual subjects in my mind and my heart while I listen to ccm. This is what filters thru and by the time I'm done listening, I am very uplifted in Jesus.

dar

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DHK:

And some lost people have led others to the Lord Jesus Christ too? Does that make it the preferred method of the Lord Jesus Christ? I think not. The ultimate goal is to bring them to Christ. I agree. Please read your Bible. Show me one verse of Scripture where music is used to lead people to the Lord. Jesus never said. "Go ye unto all the world and sing CCM unto all nations." If he did you have a terribly different Bible than I.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*HEHE* that was good...HOWEVER, by the same token, He didn't say, "Go ye unto all the world and only sing Baptist Hymnals unto all nations" OR "Go ye unto all the world and pass out salvation tracts unto all nations" OR even "Go ye unto all the world and invite people to spagetti socials unto all nations" I could put in a bunch of different things...All I'm saying is that why does it matter HOW we reach the lost, so long as we reach them? I don't think the Great Commission has a Rules & Regulations addendum added to it...unless we have different Bibles?

Kathy
&lt;&gt;&lt;

P.S. What is the preferred method?

DHK,

Around and around we go! You display narrow-sightedness when you advocate that only music which you are accustomed to and comfortable with is pleasing to God. Actually you play god ! If you want to be a purist, go back to shofars, cymbals, lyres and the like. You want to have your pianos and organs, but not electric guitars and drums? Find a piano or organ in the Bible!

Music has evolved from day one and will continue to evolve. Eliminate the extremes that are lumped under CCM (screaming, satanic sounds, etc.), which no one is defending here. If you then renounce mainstream CCM, you are simply trying to lock in a period of musical evolution and claiming that as holy, and everything else before and after it as bad. That, my friend, is Archie Bunker style bigotry!

When it comes to many traditions, music being one, there has always been the "old school" and the "new school." The "old school" has always resented the "new school" and visa versa. But time passes and the "old school" becomes "old-old school" and the "new school" becomes "old school." A new "new school" comes along and is resented by the new "old school." The new "new school" likewise resents the new "old school."

I think that pretty well sums up the debate here!

LoL!

Magicdar:
"As to the characteristics of ccm compared to worshiping characteristics, I most certainly can see each one line up with each other. I would love to know how you personally know that ccm artists adopt the life styles of secular musicians such as sex, drugs and others? Do you live with them?"

You haven't quite got the picture yet of what worship is, and its relation to self-renunciation, as we were discussing before. Remeber how the rich young ruler came to Jesus seeking eternal life (Mark 10:17-22). What did Jesus tell him in the end? "Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me." (Mark 10:21)
The rich young ruler was unwilling to part from his riches. His sin was covetousness which is idolatry.
He was unwilling to renounce those riches, and the worldly pleasures that it brought, for Christ.
If there was true worshippers involved among the CCM artists, they would sell all there music, give to the poor, and follow Jesus. Unfortunately we know that is not the case. Their lives are not filled with self-renunciation, but rather self-glorification, as can be seen in their music. They're goal is to make money, and the best way to make money is to imitate the world, because the world is very good in the money-making business. CCM music is a cheap imitation of the world's music. It always has been. Love not the world. There is no true worship (self-renunciation) found here.

I did not say that CCM artists adopted the life styles of secular musicians in that they used drugs and sex, etc. It is the secular worldly music that they are adopting---and much of that music which they do imitate speaks of sex, drugs, immorality, etc.

Kathy
"Go ye unto all the world and invite people to spagetti socials unto all nations" I could put in a bunch of different things...All I'm saying is that why does it matter HOW we reach the lost, so long as we reach them? I don't think the Great Commission has a Rules & Regulations addendum added to it...unless we have different Bibles?"
Why does it matter how we reach the lost? Because the Word of God tells how we need to reach the lost. Yes it very well does matter.
1Cor.1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Cor.2:1,2 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
Rom.1:16,17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Mark 16:15,16 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Yes it does matter. If souls are to be saved, it will be through the PREACHING of His Word, not through CCM or spaghetti socials or any other function, but by preaching of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Wellsjs
"If you want to be a purist, go back to shofars, cymbals, lyres and the like. You want to have your pianos and organs, but not electric guitars and drums? Find a piano or organ in the Bible!"

I have no problem with almost any musical instrument. As I said in a different post, my son plays the guitar, a nearby elderly pastor owns an electric guitar, but both disdain CCM. It is not the instrument, it is the music. I have been a missionary to Pakistan for many years. There instrument of choice is the drum. There music is different, but not wrong. It is spiritual but not rock, and not CCM. If it has a drum, it obviously has a beat--all music has. Any instrument can be used for the glory of the Lord. Any instrument can also be used for the glory of the flesh. I believe CCM, from my own observations, falls in the latter category.
Gen.4:21 And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.

Wellsjs:
" When it comes to many traditions, music being one, there has always been the "old school" and the "new school." The "old school" has always resented the "new school" and visa versa. But time passes and the "old school" becomes "old-old school" and the "new school" becomes "old school." A new "new school" comes along and is resented by the new "old school." The new "new school" likewise resents the new "old school."
This seems to describe the Second Law of Thermodynamics.
DHK

DHK, first of all ccm artists are not just in it for money, at least not all of them are. Its not like ccm brings in millions, it brings in money but certainly not getting them rich. I met Al Denson, he has a book out for teens that my husband and I were interested in. Al told us if we wanted to, we could take his name and picture off the book and replace it with ours and sell it because we're in this thing together and he's wasn't tring to make money but wanted to change some lives.

You may not see it, or choose to see it, but yes ccm does have the same charateristics of self renounceation. You may disagree with that, but its true. It is very much worship,to a very true extent.-dar

I can't help but wonder at what point in history the piano was contemporary. I'll have to wonder about that for a while before I can even begin to think about the organ.

DHK,

You and I are probably not as far off as it appears. If you consider hard core, acid rock, alternative styles as CCM, I do not. True, it's marketed in with all the rest, but there are many CCM artists who's lyrics are important and significant. Stephen Curtis Chapman, Clay Crosse, Avalon, Rich Mullins, Bryan Duncan, Cindy Morgan, Jaci Velasquez, Jennifer Knapp, Newsboys, Point of Grace, 4Him, Michael W. Smith, Susan Ashton, Jars of Clay, dc Talk, et al are making significant contributions to Christian music culture and are positive influences on young people for Christ and the Kingdom work.

No one says everybody has to like all styles of music. I don't care for country gospel music, but I don't go around bad-mouthing it just because it doesn't suit my tastes.

The above artists' lyrics sing of Jesus, and the beat may be "hip," but it's not satanical by any stretch of the imagination. So what then makes it bad if it and the artists are reaching the lost for Christ? I'm 51 years young and I like the sound! Of course, I'll have to admit (modestly) that before I became a believer I founded rock 'n roll!

AMEN

Wellsjs,
"You and I are probably not as far off as it appears. If you consider hard core, acid rock, alternative styles as CCM, I do not. True, it's marketed in with all the rest, but there are many CCM artists who's lyrics are important and significant. Stephen Curtis Chapman, Clay Crosse, Avalon, Rich Mullins, Bryan Duncan, Cindy Morgan, Jaci Velasquez, Jennifer Knapp, Newsboys, Point of Grace, 4Him, Michael W. Smith, Susan Ashton, Jars of Clay, dc Talk, et al are making significant contributions to Christian music culture and are positive influences on young people for Christ and the Kingdom work."

I am not acquainted with all the artists that you mention. I sometimes visit the "Christianity Today" Website, where they advertise all kinds of "Christian" music. There are demos to hear, and even chat rooms to talk with the artists. Here is one example of what I am concerned about:

francie727: Have you had one particular experience that affirmed your faith in God?
musicforce_bebo: i'll say this, it was cumulatively one experience
musicforce_bebo: the time that i spent guiding backpacking trips out in colorado
musicforce_bebo: i spent two years guiding at a camp called wilderness ranch, a young life camp
musicforce_bebo: and i don't know that i've ever seen god as clearly as i did those two seasons
musicforce_bebo: i was just talking to a ffriend of mine the other day...
musicforce_bebo: about the fact that god has used the mountains and the outdoors to speak to me more powerfully than any other force in my life
musicforce_bebo: but wilderness ranch in particular had the power of prayer, and lives transformed...
musicforce_bebo: and i saw weather change before my eyes, and lives changed before my eyes...
musicforce_bebo: as amazing experience as i've ever had
musicforce_bebo: actually, no, in fact i've only gotten to see about two episodes of it
musicforce_bebo: i don't get to watch a whole lot of tv, cause i'm always travelling
musicforce_bebo: and the biggest regret i have is not being able to watch survivor, cause everybody says it's so great
musicforce_bebo: tina is actually a small group leader from my brother's church in knoxville, but i think she still goes to church there
musicforce_bebo: i was reading peopel magazine, and there was an article about here, and she mentioned the church in knoxville, and that's where she and here family spend most of their time
musicforce_bebo: it's not on the books at all yet, but the sooner the better as fas as i'm concerned.
musicforce_bebo: it'll actually probably be after my next record
musicforce_bebo: thanks very much for the interest, cause one of my favorite things in the world is playing live shows
musicforce_bebo: there's something very special that happens in that atmosphere.

The style of music is important.
The content of music is important.
The character of the artist is important.

In this case, without even listening to the music, I will assume that it will be very shallow because of the way that he answered this question. In affirming his faith in God, there is nothing that points to salvation, or even the Word of God? Is he even saved?

DHK,

"...Without even listening to the music, I will assume it will be very shallow because of the way he answerd the question."

The question had nothing to do with salvation or the Word of God.

The interviewer asked him a specific question: "Was there one particular experience that affirmed your faith in God" and he answerd the question as it was asked (and very well, I thought).

Why you included the passage about "Survivor", I'm not sure.

In any event, I'm going to go to CT's webite and see if I can find the interview in their archives because his experiences sound an awful lot like mine.

DHK, yeah that question given to the artist was kind of vague. It should have been something to the effect of Have you ever given your life to Jesus for him to be your personal Lord and Saviour. As for a faith confirmed experience ...gosh being out in the very nature of God's creation would do the same thing for me too. Just a tip for ya.
-dar