Tithing

If you took every STOP sign up in the nation--just snatched them up and put them all in a warehouse somewhere--would you still have to stop at that intersection were the STOP sign use to be?? Of course!! Just because the sign is not there does not mean that you don't have to stop! It would on the other hand mean that you would have to be extra cautious when you approached the intersection. You see, the law is not in the sign! The law is tucked up in some judges chambers somewhere--or somewhere in some court house! The sign just says, "There's a law in the judges' chambers that says you've got to stop here!"

Just so with the law of tithing. Just because its not mentioned by name in the NT doesn't mean you can just go about your merry way and disregard the whole "Kit and cabootal!" No! It means that the Lord Jesus trusts us to do it although the signs are not posted for us to see!! Do you see?? Malachi is a prophet that ringed out the merry news--"There's a law in God's courthouse that says you've got to tithe here!!"

 

[ September 01, 2002, 10:59 PM: Message edited by: ChristianCynic ]

 

Good Morning, Cynic!

My, My! What can I say?! We're so much "unalike" that I actually like you! I believe that's why Almighty God made people to be different from each other--its His way of forcing us to learn to love each other like He loves us--ain't He way different from us?? And don't He love us anyway??!!

Say, is the water fountain over at your church "spiked?" If it ain't--leave it up to ole Cynic to figure out a way! Way before I began preaching--this friend's wife baked a bunch of us a Rum cake! Another buddy of mine(who was pastoring at the time) kept going back for seconds of that cake! Now, it was good(the cake)! And I suppose if I said that there was no harm in it--that all of the alcohol was baked out of the cake in the oven--you'd say it ain't so! Right? Or would you try to "camp out" in the oven to see if you can get a few more "wiffs" of the fumes!?? Wipe that smile off your face!

Have a good day!

Your friend,

Blackbird

 

blackbird,

There are some 613 stop signs in the Law of Moses. And Galations says:

Gal 5:1-4
Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace
NKJV

Jesus Christ came to set us free from the Law, as he completely fulfilled it by living under it, by obeying it perfectly, and commanding His new commandment which is love. Love motivates us to give, not a stop sign. Giving is not about calculator and a copy of my last check stub.

 

Those who feel that tithing is in the New Testament need to realize that the NT begins with the resurrection of Jesus, not with the placement of the four gospels under a certain category.
When Jesus spoke of tithing, the OT was still in effect and tithing only applied to the Jews.

Leviticus 27:34 "These are the commands the Lord gave Moses on Mt. Sinai for the Israelites."

While I do not believe that we are commanded to tithe, I feel it is a good starting point for those who are babes in Christ.
When you mature, feel free to start really giving.

mr

 

Mountainrun!
Yours is one of the best yet comments on tithing! I feel as though 10% is where beginners get in--if you've been saved 10, 15, 20 years you ought to be well above the tithe!

Your friend,
Blackbird

 

How many years is one saved before reaching 100%?

 

Chet, first let apologize for the lengthy delay in responding. The Lord ahs really blessed us here at church and I have been extra busy. We had 124 last Sunday. That is the most we've had around here in 25 years or so. To God be the glory!

Second, thank you for your input regarding the book of Malachi. I believe I do understand the purpose of the book. I do not base my theology concerning tithing on just that passage in Malachi, although I am not totally convinced that it would be an inaccurate application. It may not be the specific interpretation but I beieve it still has useful application.

God has set up giving principles in His Word. Tithing was not a ceremonial duty. It brought the tither no closer to God. It atoned for no sin. It was simply an act of obedience to God.

When Jesus died on the cross He fulfilled those ceremonial laws. We no longer have to sacrifice animals to atone for our sins. He did not ever rescind the principle of tithing. Tithing is still an act of obedience to God today.

Tithing shows our obedience; giving an offering over and above the tithe shows our love.

I agree 100% with those who have stated that 10% is just the starting point, but I believe that it is a God mandated starting point.

 

It never ceases to amaze me--the number of
people who use the "Old Testament" when it
conveniently fits their agenda then throw it out,
crying, "Grace!! Grace!!" when it does not.
These are the same ones who plead that the
Church is spiritual Israel and that our God is
through with Israel, for they have thrown away
the promise and it now belongs to the church.

Okay, fine. Then it is time to throw away your
great big Bibles and go out and buy little "New
Testaments," but make sure they have neither
Psalms nor Proverbs!

For the rest of us, we tithe, minimally.

How convenient, for those who do not wish to
support the work of our Lord, to decide that since
the "New Testament" does not command "Thou
shalt tithe!" you are free of all obligation. Yet our
Lord mentioned that the scribes and Pharisees
tithed, condemning them for omitting such
weightier matters as judgment, mercy, and faith.
In making such a statement, was He diminishing
the importance of tithes? No! So why did they
tithe? Because it was expected. Did our Lord
or the disciples tithe? If they had not, it would
have been noticed, and Very Heavy Criticism
would have been leveled against them. Tithing
was as common among the Israelites as was
going to Temple, studying Torah, and baptizing.
It needed no reinforcement.

Did our Lord diminish, then, the tithe of the
Pharisee who stood praying with himself? No.
Again, tithe was expected; our Lord criticized
him for his pride and self-righteousness.

For a reality check: Does your church have a
building?/ Lights? Heat? Air conditioning?
Sunday school? Outreach? Literature?/ Ppew
Bibles? Hymnals? Choir with written music?
A pastor or two? A minister of music? A piano?
Organ and organist? Who is paying for these
things? The rich people a couple rows back
and to the right? When are you going to take
up your responsibility? Or would you prefer to
stand before our God and say, "Oops!":

 

Abiyah, we are not UNDER the Old Testament laws nor the old covenant.
If you wish to keep the Old Testament, you must also reinstitute animal sacrifice, stoning of adultresses, forbid cooking on the Sabbath, etc.

Those laws never applied to Gentiles in the first place, and they were nailed to the cross in regards to the Jews.

One tithe was given to the Levites as their inheritance.
Do you make sure a Levite receives your tithe?

Specific uses were required of the tithe.
Do you adhere to OT guidelines for the use of the tithe?
I doubt it.

Again, Gentiles are not under the law and never were.
Our guidelines for giving are spelled out in the 8th and 9th chapters of 2 Corinthians.


MR

 

Do you have children? Do you spank them? If
you do, shame on you! Nowhere in the "New
Testament" does it say to spank children. That
was in the "Old Testament."

Do you have children--really? Shame on you!
Buy birth control pills, because it does not say,
in the "New Testament," to multiply.

Do you practice Easter? Christmas? Shame on
you! That is not in the Bible at all.

Do you see how these games can be played?

Our very own Lord said clearly (KJV) "Think not
that I am come to destroy the law, or the pro-
phets; I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth
pass, one jot or onw tittle shalll in no wise pass
from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever
therefore shall break one of these least com-
mandments, and shalll teach men so, he shall
be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:
but whosoever shall do and teach them shall be
called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The same One said, "If ye love me, kep my com-
mandments."

Now, I never said that keeping our God's feasts
will save anyone, nor will keeping the command-
ments; that is something only the Very Blood of
our Lord and Savior can do! But keeping our
God's feasts and keeping the commandments
also willl not send one to Hell or cause them to
lose their salvation. In fact, Zechariah wrote
that in the last days, all WILL come when all WILL
go to Jerusalem for the feasts, or there will be no
rain.

 

Our God, who made the heavens and the earth, also owns the cattle on a thousand hills. He has no need for our riches. (Ps. 50:7-13).

The Law was written as a guide for the Jews. A minimum of 10% was demanded.
As Christians we are to offer our whole selves as a sacrifice to God. (Romans 12:1) (No percent is demanded once we offer Him our everything!)
We are called to be stewards of God’s grace. We are stewards of everything the Lord has given us.

The Lord asks 100%. Everything we do is to represent a tithe to the Lord. Anything else is holding back. What I give to my church is related to this, and I agree that 10% is a good start.

The average church receives 2-3% of its member’s income. What a shame.

 

Abiyah

You said:

All I do Abiyah is conveniently rightly divide the Word of truth. I never said that Old Testament was not useful, but the Law is abolished.

You will never see me say the Church is spiritual Israel. Israel is not the Church. I make this distinction. And I do not believe that God is through with Israel and the promises given to her.

I wouldn't want to do that, I love the book of Proverbs. But I understand that some of the promises that lie within are written in the context of the Law. I also love the historical books such as Genesis, First and Second Samuel especially. I have learned a great deal about the grace and love of God in the Old Testament. As far as the Law goes, there are a lot of types pointing to the fulfillment of that law - Jesus.

Rest assured most tithers let us know that they tithe. Do you feel closer to God for doing that? I am grateful He does not require payment from me in order to be blessed. He already blessed, therefore I give.

Not so, the Lord was in the 23 chapter of Matthew condemning the Pharisees for putting so much importance on this law. They went beyond what the law required, self-righteously. I see the same thing happening in Churches all over. He did not ask them to stop tithing according to the law because the law had not yet been fulfilled.

The point of this was self-righteousness, not if we should tithe or not. I find it ironic that here the tithe is associated with pride. Your use of these passages, dealing with self-righteousness in the midst of a commendation is poor.

Please do not confuse the doctrine of giving with that of tithing. I believe in giving. Because of my personal financial situation, I can't give as much as some, but I do give. And its not always $$$. I just don't believe that giving has anything to do with a tithe. Indecently I challenge anyone to find where the "tithe" has anything to do with money at all. It simply don't. In fact:

Deut 14:22-27 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always. But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away), then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose. Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice. And do not neglect the Levites living in your towns, for they have no allotment or inheritance of their own.

They had to transfer their tithe (food) into money when they traveled. Then they had to buy back the tithe (food).

Personally I don't consider this issue a game. I find it incredibly serious when you have pastors leading a flock in such legalistic teaching. Especially when it involves people who can't afford to pay a tithe. Pastors can exclaim that people are robbing God, but who is really doing the robbing? I find this to be a serious lack of studing what a Tithe even is, why it was used, and who it was for, and when it was given. They can cry that people who don't tithe lacks faith in God, but in reality it is them who lacks the faith in that they have to rely on an misused law to get paid.

The word fulfill does not mean "to confirm". It means to complete, expire, and fill. When Christ said that He did not come to destroy the law, He knew that He would be living a perfect sinless life, therefore completing the law that no other man could fulfill. This Law could be obeyed by Jesus Christ here on earth without breaking it. If Jesus would have sinned then the law would have been broken or destroyed. It was a righteous law, that Jesus followed to the "T". Jesus did fulfill the law which he was born under (Gal 4:4) by living in perfect obedience to it (Heb. 4:15). He also fulfilled that law by His death on the cross (Heb. 9:7-28). And the fulfillment of the law is love which is the new commandment that Christ gave to us. Let’s look at a few of the many of scriptures which instructs us that it is through the blood of Jesus Christ that we are no longer under the Law (which was really only to Israel anyway).

Col 2:14
having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.


Eph 2:13-17
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

Rom 7:1-5
For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.
So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.

Rom 7:6
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

2 Cor 3:5-11
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant-not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Rom 6:13-14
For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

What are Christ Commandments?

1 John 3:23-24
And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

1 John 4:21-5:1
And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.

1 John 5:2-4
This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

2 John 4-6
It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us. And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

Gal 6:1-3
Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.

John 13:34-35
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

John 15:12
My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

 

Because I use WebTV for Internet service, I do not
have the convenience of going through long posts,
using what I want and deleting the rest, so I will not
bother to try to answer you on all these things.

However, I will ask you this: do you honestly believe
that our Lord, the Word, the Creator, had nothing to
do with the Law other than to live accordingly while
in human form upon the earth? Do you also believe
that "all things" have been fulfilled?

I recognize that all believers do not believe as I
believe, but not once have I condemned anyone
to be salvationless for not believing as I do.

I believe that for the modern believer, a tithe is a
guideline for our mode of modern living in which\
most of us do not live in an agricultural society. If
someone cannot minimally tithe, but they can have
a latte on the way to work, shame on them. Some
of the churches are suffering, the pastors living on
hardly anything, because the people are not willing
to give.

This is not, as you would like to make it seem, an
area of pride. How convenient for you! It is a
matter of At Least doing the Least we should do.

 

Pastor Bob

I understand. I am blessed by knowing that God is blessing you. But please don’t tell me your a numbers guy. But somehow I knew that you were.

I appreciate your reading of my post. Sometimes I worry that if they are too long people will skim through them. I am grateful you did not skim. I also understand that there are applications in these books of the Prophets. But I think you are doing more than just getting an application, you are applying literally these things to the Church in which they don’t apply. What is a tithe? Is it money? Was it food? Who was it for? ect... This passages simply does not teach us about Church age giving.

You are the one using Malachi, not me.

Please point me to the Scripture that speaks of this “ceremonial” law. I have done a lot of study on the Law, and have read a lot where “people” have somehow divided the law into /moral, ceremonial, and Levitical. But to me, the Bible simply does not teach this division. It lumps all the laws of Moses into one law. Furthermore, where do we start determining what laws, ceremonial or not, we think we are to practice and which we are not? Besides, Pastor Bob, the real tithe has nothing to do with money.

Again, could you point me to scripture that says that my tithe is a measure of obedience, and anything above 10% of my gross income is my act of love?

Giving is not a legalistic act. Why do I need to be led by the law when I am led by the Spirit? The law is no longer our guide. We do not need it, and it was not perfect. It led to death, while the Spirit leads us to life.

Acts 3:6
Then Peter said, "Silver or gold I do not have, but what I have I give you....

God Bless!

 

Abiyah

Hi That was a fast reply LOL.

God gave the Law to the Nation of Israel. It is of my opinion that the Israelites chose to have the Law over God’s Grace. He did not need the Law, He is above it. I also believe that all things have been fulfilled. Christ fulfilled the Law, the NT is clear on this. Especially in the books of Romans, Galatians, Ephesians teach this plainly.

I am sorry you feel that way. The law of tithing is not a guideline, the Bible does not teach this. Why would I need to follow some guideline? Was not God’s fulfillment of these laws not enough? He gave us a new commandment which is love, that is my guideline. I am not led by the law, but by the Spirit on such matters. If I have the ability to give, then I will do so. But not because God requires his payment.

Not so! It is not shame on them. Please read 2 Cor. 8-9. I will agree with you on the lack of people willing to give. I feel that people have become to lazy to give their time in discipleship, and don’t even know how to teach anyway. (Heb 5). I feel that people would rather drop in a dime and feel good about themselves, thinking that they gave instead of really doing some work. I feel that many Pastors who teach this 10% giving is actually hurting themselves. In fact, I personally know of one Church where the Pastor realized that modern day tithing is unbiblical, and taught about faith, NT giving and his people gave more.

 

mountainrun

Amen.

 

Chet,
This is way off topic so I will respond but briefly. You have no need to feel bad because I am, as you phrase, "a numbers guy." The Bible tells me that the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. If God is not adding to our church, then something is wrong.

We had 124 precious souls come to church and hear the blessed gospel of the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord instead of going to the ball game or the lake. I still say, "Praise the Lord!"

If I was trying to impress you, do you think I would have said 124? No, I would have said 524!

Feel as you may, I am for the numbers for the right reasons. The more people I can get into church, the more people I can attempt to keep out of hell. I do not publish my attendance in the Sword of the Lord or anything like that, but when God bless us, I like to share that blessing. I just need to be more selective who I share it with I guess.

Yours for Souls,

Pastor Bob

 

The Lord asks 100%.

Do you give 100% of your income? If not, WHY not?

 

Chet --

Then we disagree, but I will not try to condemn
you for that. I do believe that we all have a lot of
right ideas, and we all have a lot of wrong ideas;
we will find out which is which when we see our
Lord.