Total Depravity

Isn't this view the same with calvinism?</font>[/QUOTE]That's my point exactly. Non-Calvinists need to address the question, just like Calvinists need to.

First, you are on dangerous ground. Romans 9:17-24 directly contradicts your conclusion of barbarism.

Second, if there is a practical difference between knowing that someone will never believe if you create them, but then creating them anyway, and creating someone so that they will never believe, then I would love for you to explain the difference.

 

I believe the words of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, when he says:

“No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him” (John 6:44)

The passage quoted above at once tells us that “coming to Christ” is not the easy matter so many imagine it, nor so simple a thing as most preachers represent it to be.

The incarnate Son of God positively declares that such an act is utterly impossible to a fallen and depraved creature unless and until Divine power is brought to bear upon him.

A most pride-humbling, flesh-withering, man-abasing word is this. “Coming to Christ” is a far different thing from raising your hand to be prayed for by some Protestant “priest,” coming forward and taking some evangelist’s hand, signing some “decision” card, uniting with some “church,” or any other of the “many inventions” of man (Eccl 7:29).

Before any one can or will “come to Christ” the understanding must be supernaturally enlightened, the heart must be supernaturally changed, the stubborn will must be supernaturally broken.

 

Coming to Christ is not a result of regeneration, it is a result of drawing.

 

"FREE WILL", that's what got us into this "SIN" and why God gave "Adam/Eve" a choice, a "choice" that God gave us through Jesus.

If "GRACE" (Sovereign will) was all that was need to be Saved, then it was totally "Un-necessary" for Jesus to die,

but "GRACE" doesn't pay the "wages of sin", only death, so only through "FAITH IN JESUS" can one "RECEIVE" that "GRACE".

"GRACE" does not "PRECEED" "FAITH".

"FAITH" in Jesus "PRECEEDS" "GRACE".

No man comes to the father except
"BY ME". (Jesus)

Calvinist have it "backwards".

 

Amen, Me4Him,

Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ.

Had it not been for a hill called Mount Calvary
Had it not been for an old rugged cross
Had it not been for a man called Jesus
Then forever my soul would be lost.

 

I beg to differ with you on this matter.

A man dead in sin cannot be drawn without first being given that first breath to make the move possible.

We are not speaking of a physical regeneration, but a Spiritual birth. And that first true Spirtual breath comes from God, and from God only.

One must be awakened from the dead by the Spirit to make this new life possible. To deny the Holy Spirit of His great work afterwards - only to take credit as a man for having part in our Salvation in incorrect.

"Salvation belongeth unto the LORD: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah." Psalm 3:8

 

you are talking apples and oranges.

dead in the natural is inability to move or do a thing.

but dead in sin is different.

if one dead in sin cannot hear or feel the drawing of God, Adam and Eve would not have answered God after their fall.

Paul would not have answered God on the road to Damascus. Paul was not regenerated before his faith in Christ. As a matter of fact, when he was knocked off his high horse, he still did not know Christ. Else he would not have cried out, 'Who art thou, lord?'

The Philippian jailor would not have asked the question, 'Sirs, what must I do to be saved'

It is only through the washing of water by the Word that one can be regenerated. One does not get saved and then hear the Word. One hears the Word and gets saved.

 

It seems that the parable in Luke 14 about the banquet implies that there was a choice following an invitation, and I am equating the invitation to the banquet with Holy Spirit conviction. Pure calvinsm would say the three people invited could not have given the Lord excuses.

 

true, saturnneptune.

great scripture

those invited to the banquet surely were regenerated by the Holy Spirit in order to be able to answer either way.

And yet, we know this cannot be. Regeneration (the new birth) would allow anyone to enter into heaven without even accepting God's gift of love, the Lord Jesus Christ. For they are regenerated before turning to Christ according to the Calvinistic doctrine.

Jesus said 'Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God' There is only one way to be born again. Jesus said, 'I am the Door'

 

Please allow me to ask you a few questions in this message.

But first, you must understand that you are taking what I wrote out of context, and then implying that I said that hearing the Word has nothing to do with being saved.

That my kind brother, is insulting.

The comparisons used in my previous message were to illustrate differences and similarities - you, yourself, even said in your reply;

"if one dead in sin cannot hear or feel the drawing of God, Adam and Eve would not have answered God after their fall."

Well, was Adam dead? ...is Adam in Hell today?

Still, I implore you to ponder the following once more:

No man will, or can, do anything of the Spirit without first moved by the Spirit. The only way for that to happen is to be given life - as no man is capable of doing anything good on his own.

This is the law spoken by our Lord, not myself.

 

Hey Everyone,

I dont think the question of whether man has any "good" in him even figures into a man becoming born again. Neither does spiritual discernment. People dont want to die. They want to live forever. The last place they want to go is hell, which is a literal place. They are told that they have sinned and the penalty for this is eternity in hell. (The unregenrates of the Old Testament knew when they were breaking God's law. It takes no spiritual discernment to see that.) Anyway the sinner is told that Christ died for his sins and that Christ's blood will wash his sins away if he will repent and place his trust in Christ for salvation. He is told there is no way he can save himself through good works.
The day I recieved Christ, I knew nothing about a plan where I would be conformed to the image of the Son. At the time, I dont know if that would have been appealing to me anyway. All I knew was I didnt want to go to hell and that I wanted eternal life. I was happy that God made all of this possible for me, through his son.
My point is that it's not the goodness in us that makes the gospel appealing. It's our desire to want to live forever and escape Hell. Some of the worst guys on the planet are in our prisons and many of them are converted when they hear the gospel.

 

This text contradicts nothing. Paul is speaking in "what if" mode, not "God did" mode. Huge difference, and one calvinists refuse to notice.

 

Webdog says:
quote:
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It's one thing to create someone and want them to love and follow you, and having perfect knowledge of whether they will or not, and it's another thing to create someone NOT to love and follow you, and for the sole purpose of destruction. This is barbaric.
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Whatever says:

quote:
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First, you are on dangerous ground. Romans 9:17-24 directly contradicts your conclusion of barbarism.

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Webdog says:

This text contradicts nothing. Paul is speaking in "what if" mode, not "God did" mode. Huge difference, and one calvinists refuse to notice.

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here now says:

The scriptures below show a 'God did' mode, not a 'What if' mode. And why does God do it?.....to show His power!....And why show His power?.....So that His name will be declared throughout all earth!

Now who will try to take that from Him????????????


It does not say the Potter makes a vessel, then the vessel decides to become an honour or dishonour.

Who does it say has the power???????????


Romans 9:17
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Romans 9:21
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?