Hi, A4GivenGirl,
A couple of technical points first for you in your posting. You can make your posts much easier to read by paragraphing. Also UBB code means you can italicize or bold someone else's words or Bible quotes. Use square brackets [], and, without leaving any spaces, put the letter i between them to open italics and /i between them to close italics. Bold is opened with the letter b and closed with /b. If you want to indent a quote, marking it off as a quote, use the full word 'quote' (without the single quote marks) and then /quote to end.
And lastly, is there a name we can call you by? A number of posters will have a handle on their posts but put their actual name on the bottom so conversations run a little more easily!
But if not, no sweat.
Now, onto your post.
One of the major things I see Calvinists do is presume that death = unconsciousness and inability to respond. That is erroneous. Physical death is simply separation from the body. The body may be unconscious and starting to rot, but that has nothing to do with the person who has moved out of it! He is not unconscious in the least!
In John 17:4, Jesus defines eternal life as knowing the Father and the Son. THEREFORE, eternal death must be NOT knowing them. This, again, is separation and not a condition of unconsciousness or unresponsiveness. If this were true, then it would be a farce for God to say to a spiritually dead sinner,
"Come, let us reason together." It would make no sense for Jesus to say to anyone,
"Come to me, all ye that are weak and heavy-laden.... But time after time the sinner is spoken TO, not just about, and a response is expected.
So being dead in our sins means being apart from God; being out of the light, as so vividly expressed in John 1.
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
One cannot recognize or 'not recognize' anything if one is unconscious. "To recognize" is a type of response. So is "to receive". These statements of John's would have been absurd if the Jewish people were incapable of responding at all.
Again, in John 3
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainy what he has done has been done through God.
In the above, the spiritually dead are loving darkness and doing evil deeds. The second is a result of the first. The first indicates a spiritually conscious state. You cannot love anything if you are not conscious. Those who do evil are also said there to fear. An unconscious person fears nothing. That is one of the reasons for anesthesia in surgery!
Thus, while a spiritually dead person may be far from God, he is not unconscious or unable to respond. This is also applicable to the Ephesians passage you quoted. An unconscious man certainly cannot lust, or have desires to be fulfilled!
I took my 'stumbling in the dark' reference, by the way, from the above passages.
You then mentioned the Christian's three greatest enemies, but why worry about them? We are not weak, but in Christ strong. Greater is He that is in you than He that is in the world. And you will not suffer any temptation that is not common to man and that you will not be able to get out of. I know a lot of people say this in a twisted way that God will not give you anything you cannot handle, but He does that to me all the time! If I didn't totally depend on Him, I'd be sunk many times over! (Not that once isn't enough...)
And yes, although sins incur the wrath of God, it is when they are done in the process of rejection of Christ, as the quote from John 3 indicates above. All sins are atoned for. It is the rejection of Christ -- the Truth -- that brings about God's fury. Paul is quite clear about that in Romans 1.
But let's take a look at your verses in turn:
Revelation 5:9 --
And they sang a new song:
"You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals,
because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation."
I know that Calvinists refer to this as meaning 'some men', and I agree that is the final result, but I don't think that is the meaning of this verse -- I think the point is that there is no time or culture or language or anything which was excluded from the knowledge of God's Promise of a Messiah, and thus, those who trusted in that ancient God of gods, and His Promise, were trusting in Christ as surely as you and I are, and that God knew this and they are His.
This is in stark contrast with those who say that only one race, or only one time, or whatever, indicates those who can be saved. I think the point of this praise chorus is that God knows how to reach every man who has ever lived and that each man has had a choice regarding how to respond.
2 Corinthians 5:14 -- I'll just put this in italics, because your quote, bolded, is a little different in context, I think.
Since then we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience. We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can anaswer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart. If we are out of our mind, it is for the sake of God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
First of all, Paul and his fellow ministers are those whom Christ's love is compelling, not everyone (in this passage). Secondly, why on earth would Paul be trying to persuade anyone if they could not respond because they were spiritually unconscious? Thirdly, it is clear that we are all involved in Christ's death -- and therefore even the babies and little children are covered by His atonement until they willfully rebel (which they simply cannot do at that age!). The phrase 'those who live' coming after 'he died for all' indicate that not everyone He died for is going to end up living...
Romans 6:5-8 (I assume that is what you meant, and I'm starting with verse 1 to put it in context)
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so tht grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him thorugh baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin -- because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him...The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Here again we see death as separation. If we were unconscious to sin, then we would not sin at all! But we do. Nevertheless, we are separated from sin and even more so from the effects of sin in the long run, and close to God through Christ Jesus.
Think also of what being a slave means -- it is not an unconscious state! Being a slave to sin is contrasted with being a slave to righteousness by Paul, as you know. At no point is there an indication of spiritual unconsciousness.
John 6:37-40 -- I have done this so many times! Not your fault...
Let's put it in context again (why are you leaving out verse 35???):
Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
"Sir," they said, "from now on give us this breas."
Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty
allow me to interrupt here for this commercial message..."Ask, and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For EVERYONE who asks receives, he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened."
and
"Come to me, all ou who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
back to the text above
But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. FOR MY FATHER'S WILL IS THAT EVERYONE WHO LOOKS TO THE SON AND BELIEVES IN HIM SHALL HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and I will raise him up at the last day."
You will not see anything about sin there. Only believing. Secondly, there is a mutuality about all of this: "he who comes" and "he who believes" is balanced but not overshadowed by "all that the Father gives me." We cannot afford to pay attention to one side and ignore the other -- from either side. This is why I personally found it necessary to back up, if you will, to the concept of the truth and men's reactions to it, as Paul talks about in Romans 1.
John 15:13-16 --
Greater love has no one than this, tht he lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command. I no longer call ou servants, because a servant does not know his master's usiness. Instead I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit -- fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.
He is talking to the disciples particularly here, not the world. Please do not take this out of context by applying it to all believers. It is not until chapter 17 that Jesus' prayer is started, as different from His last address before His crucifixion to His disciples. In His prayer, Jesus first prays for Himself, then for His disciples, and finally for the rest of us. The distinction is clear. But chapters 13:38-16:33 are distinctivly to the disciples. His choosing of them is chronicled in the Gospels.
John 17:9, is likewise specifically for the disciples and about them. The prayer for all believers does not start untnil verse 20.
Ephesians 5:25-27 --
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
This has to do with the preparation of the church and is not dealing with either general or limited atonement.
Matthew 26:28 --
"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
Yes, there are many, many people who have been alive in this world. The fact that Jesus told them also, in the Sermon on the Mount that MANY end up going through the wide gate but only a FEW
find the narrow gate indicates that His blood was shed for many who do not end up on that narrow way...Bible explains Bible...
Mark 14:24 -- parallel to the one above. Why did you reference both?
1 Corinthians 11:25 -- this never mentions 'many' or 'few' at all but is simply a review of the offering of the cup. Why did you reference this one?
Ephesians 2:12-13 --
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
I think this makes it quite clear that spiritual death is being 'far away' from Christ, first of all, and not unconscious! And while the Promise was given to ALL men through Eve, the COVENANT of the Promise was given to Abraham and thus to Israel. This is that reference that Paul is making there. Again, this has nothing to do with limited or general atonement!
Hebrews 13:20 -- this is a lovely benediction and I don't see what it has to do with your argument regarding limited atonement, but here it is:
May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for eve and ever. Amen.
To which I add my heartfelt "Amen!"
Regarding the Shepherd and the sheep, and the sheep knowing the Shepherd's voice, yes. Jesus said in John 14 that He is THE Truth. Paul says that those who suppress the truth are the cause of God's great anger (Romans 1). Jesus' sheep are those who want the truth and will then recognize it when it is given. They will respond to it and not suppress it, and God the Father will then lead them to Christ.
It is a mutual thing, as a marriage should be.
Please, we need to let Bible explain Bible, and not just take out verses here or there as 'proof texts' and ignore either their context or the rest of the Bible.
"Choose this day whom you will serve" is just as valid today as it was on entry into the Promised Land.
