MMF - Another rock n roll topic

Wow, you even judge the hearts of men without Scripture! I think the you are far worse than I thought.It's probably about time I leave this place for good.

 

The Church has always had its traditional music
and this developed and progress with time -from the beauty of the human voice, accompanied by tambourine, cymbal, flute, harp and lyre
to
huge Victorian choirs and grand organs (which produce very kind instrument sound)
to
today's CHORUSes sung in every church denonomination, sometimes to the accompanyment of drums and cymbals or small keyboard

To the Church the thing of primary importance besides the spirit of the muscial worship is for the WORD to be prominent and understandable

The invention of electricity brought about profound changes in music especially in the piano and the guitar. Some of us who are steeped in Church tradition oppose the sound of this "new music" and rightly so, for most of it is grounded in the world. But in the past couple of generations there are those born of the Spirit of Christ who are making music electronically. THis music CCM is slowly finding acceptance with the younger generation in the Church and it is THEY who will decide in the end what kind of music glorifies God in our churches.

I can agree with Matticus as well as with others who prefer older, more traditional forms of music. Myself I prefer the harmonies of the naked human voice. Others love the sound of beat and electric guitar. Rock music, like any other music, issues from the soul. It can be torturous, rebellious, sexually depraved, or it can be seeking, observing, or praising God. It is the spirit that declares the work and each work -whether it be traditional, classical, modern, rock 'n roll, post modern electronic- must be judged on its own merits and since the spririt of the artist is embodied in his work, each work and each artist can be spirituall discerned.

There can be no blanket condemnation for musical genres; such general condemnation betrays a lack of spiritual discernment.

 

No, a conversion only comes from a hearing of the Word of God. Conversions do not presume the sanctity of the vehicle.

quote:
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Matthew 7
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

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Judas Iscariot is one prime example. He preached the Gospel, he cast out devils and wrought miracles, but he was the son of perdition.

That being said, though fragments of God's word is framed in sensuality, never ever assume that a conversion is the basis of anything than the preaching of the Gospel.

But I must look closer at this so-called fruit, and I find souls entrenched in sensuality, though they claim to be Christian, not walking in love, but wantonness.

Sorry bud. The truth hurts.

Aaron, I don't understand how any of that is backing up your point. It does not seems relative. I think you need to define some of the terms you are using. I'm still pretty young, I've never heard words like 'perdition', and I don't know the meaning of wantonness or what you are meaning by it. Most important, you need to clearly define how you are using 'sensuality', I do not follow at all. Please try to make yourself clear to me.

God Bless
Matt

 

Alrighty! I am relatively new on here. I have not read everything in this thread but I get BASICLY what everyone is trying to say. alright. I understand where every one is comming from. but saying that rock and what not is evil and carnal is simply foolish my friends. first of all to the professional musician guy who plays piano in churches and synagogues. Do you know what people first said about the organ when it was introduced to churches? they said that it was evil and carnal. but now its tame tame tame. do you know what people said about classical music like handel and bethoven when they first came out? they said they were evil and carnal. I admit lots of rock has to do with sexual things. but some one said something about the dressing in a sexual manner. most CCM music I have seen performed the people performing are dressed tamer than the people in the croud. It is true that we shouldn't do things that would cause our brothers and sisters in christ to stumble, but if our brothers and sisters that would stumble are not around, then we can do what ever it is that they were stumbling on. Also you should not tell people what they can and cannot do. also I know that most of you are baptists. I am a baptist, but I am also an evangelist, and an orthodox, and what ever else denomination you can think of. I am christian, and I will attend a church if my God tells me too. but back to my point, have any of you had a word from God? what about seen an angel? prophesied over some one or something? spoken in tongues? been knocked over by the holy ghost? generally in my oppinion when God gives me a word about something that is wrong, it only applies to me. God told me that its wrong for me to cut my hair, so I became a Nazarite. but I dont go around telling people that cutting and styling there hair is wrong! God told me not to decorate myself, so I dont peirce myself or wear juelery, but I dont tell people that decorating themselves is evil and carnal. what Im trying to say is, if you stumble on rock music then dont listen to it. but if you can reach the masses, and the youth, and tell them about how loved they are by God, then go out and do it! in my oppinion if you are performing for a million people, and one person gets saved because of your music then it was worth it. I myself am a musician and I play in a christian rock band, I dont dress revealingly or in tight clothes or anything, if anything I wear ultra baggy clothes. not all rock is carnal. if so then every thing we use today is carnal. television, the internet, cars (they have a backseat you know), you name it, its carnal. oh well. thats all for now.

Untill next time.
-Nid Naz

 

Matt said: Aaron, I don't understand how any of that is backing up your point. It does not seems relative. I think you need to define some of the terms you are using. I'm still pretty young, I've never heard words like 'perdition', and I don't know the meaning of wantonness or what you are meaning by it. Most important, you need to clearly define how you are using 'sensuality', I do not follow at all. Please try to make yourself clear to me.

Perdition means waste, or destruction. Judas was predestined to go to hell.

Wantonness is an overdaring sort of license. A promiscuous permissivism. An "I'll do whatever I want" kind of attitude.

I use the term sensuality in the same way it is used in James 3:15, and Jude 1:19. It refers to those things that appeal to our animal apetites like sex, food, comfort, etc. A sort of "If it feels good, do it" philosophy.

 

Yep, unscriptural self righteous judgement of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of people you don't even know based on unscriptural, Pharisaical moral law.

 

No, not at all. Many folks seek sensual gratification from music, too. You don't have to be a musicologist to know that. And the, "If it feels good, do it" attitude is brazenly flaunted in many as they justify CCM.

It is even evident in your posts:

In other words, "It feels good to them, you should let them do it."

And how do you know that? The Scriptures? I trow not! You say yourself the Scriptures are silent with regard to musical styles. Therefore, if it feels good, do it!



[ July 02, 2002, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

Perdition means waste, or destruction. Judas was predestined to go to hell.

Wantonness is an overdaring sort of license. A promiscuous permissivism. An "I'll do whatever I want" kind of attitude.

I use the term sensuality in the same way it is used in James 3:15, and Jude 1:19. It refers to those things that appeal to our animal apetites like sex, food, comfort, etc. A sort of "If it feels good, do it" philosophy.

thanks for clearing that up, Aaron. Ok then. I do not at all support an "if it feels good, do it" philosphy. I support an "if it's of God, it's good" philosophy. The feels good do it philosophy is totally wordly, i agree. In fact, Sloan has a song with that title. When I heard it, I thought 'it's an anthem for all the world stands for'. Christian music is not at all about an "if it feels good, do it" philosophy. It's totally "if it's of God, then it's good." It is music written by christians in praise of God. Now, you disagree here. I know. You have not yet proved that christian rock music is evil. You have proven that SECULAR rock music is evil. Please give me your backup for saying that CHRISTIAN rock music is evil.

Thanks.
God Bless
Matt

 

Aaron, why is it when proven wrong on any given point (which you always invariably are), you just shift the topic?Your deceit knows no limits.In one thread you try to establish that certain instruments are unacceptable for worship, and when the logic of your assertion is exposed for it's silliness, you jump threads and spread your lies elsewhere.In another topic you blow up on me with the insinuation that I'm not even at a third grade reading level, I then go on to show how you completely missed my point in the first place, and once again you bail, and start spreading your lies elsewhere.Never once do you use Scripture.Do you see the pattern developing?I'm sure you do, and I don't want you to think I don't.Lies are lies, and they can be exposed anywhere, so when you are cornered and wish to run away from now on, please just close out the thread with an acknowledgement of defeat.

Which folks seek sensual gratification through CCM?How is this fact displayed?Can you read their hearts and minds?Are you claiming yourself to be diety?

No in other words, if it praises God and orients your heart on Him, do it.Take the blinders off, have a look around and understand that not everyone associates everything in the world with sex.I'm sorry it's such a huge problem for you but that is no excuse to take it out on the church in anger.

I say myself that Scripture is silent with regard to making moral judgements about styles of music, or musical instruments.Indeed that is correct as you have been stifled at every futile attempt to prove otherwise.

Care to jump threads and start spreading your lies elsewhere now?Or are you ready to stand you ground, stick to Scripture and be ready to admit defeat when it comes in a spirit of humility and brotherly love?I tell you that I am.

 

I have a question for you Aaron, and I don't mean this to be deragatory or accusatory in any sense.I just have a sneaking suspicion that you have never really lived in and among the unsaved for a significant period of time.Have you ever been a part of the world, in that you traveled in unsaved circles, went to clubs and concerts, that sort of thing?

My guess (again not meant to sound accusatory), is that you have probably known the Lord for most of your life because you don't display a real knowledge of how people fall into the bondage of sin.

[ July 03, 2002, 01:07 AM: Message edited by: Odemus ]

 

I believe that he has. If secular rock music can be considered to be evil, then what is Christian rock, or CCM, but putting Christian lyrics to secular rock music? The music does not suddenly become Christian because of the lyrics. Music produces feeling and emotion. The feeling and emotion that rock produces is inherently sensual. It is a far cry to the type of emotion that a good rendition of "It is Well With My Soul," can produce.
DHK

 

Once again, the message of worldly rock music is evil, period end of story.Noone has proven that music in itself can be considered evil.How many times are you going to just ignore the complete lack of evidence to prove so, and stick to your conclusion that a rock beat/melody can be inherently sinful?

Stay with Scripture, draw your conclusions from there, then come back and try again

Does traditional Christian music start out Christian when the music is written first?Or after the the lyrics or added?At what point does the transition occur from being a melody in progress to suddenly becoming acceptable for worship?

How do you know this? Personal experience? Do you feel an unwanted particular burning in the nether region whenever you hear a drum beat accompanied by an electric guitar?Do you have any idea how silly you sound?Have you got a single shred of evidence to suggest that such a thing is possible?

Now here I agree with you.There are very few pieces of music from any genre that can produce the feeling I get when our church sings this hymn.

When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
When sorrows like sea billows roll;
Whatever my lot, Thou has taught me to say,
It is well, it is well, with my soul.

It is well, with my soul,
It is well, with my soul,
It is well, it is well, with my soul.

Though Satan should buffet, though trials should come,
Let this blest assurance control,
That Christ has regarded my helpless estate,
And hath shed His own blood for my soul.

My sin, oh, the bliss of this glorious thought!
My sin, not in part but the whole,
Is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more,
Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul!

For me, be it Christ, be it Christ hence to live:
If Jordan above me shall roll,
No pang shall be mine, for in death as in life
Thou wilt whisper Thy peace to my soul.

But, Lord, ‘tis for Thee, for Thy coming we wait,
The sky, not the grave, is our goal;
Oh trump of the angel! Oh voice of the Lord!
Blessèd hope, blessèd rest of my soul!

And Lord, haste the day when my faith shall be sight,
The clouds be rolled back as a scroll;
The trump shall resound, and the Lord shall descend,
Even so, it is well with my soul.

But what we have here is a most powerful message!The beauty of this song is in the words and the spiritual truths they express!

Horatio G. Spafford penned the words to this hymn after two terrible tragedies.One was a fire that destroyed his business and left him financially ruined, and the other was losing his four daughters who died when their boat sank while crossing the Atlantic.These words speak comfort to those who have suffered in any way!It is the meaning of this hymn that expresses its true beauty!

[ July 03, 2002, 01:54 AM: Message edited by: Odemus ]

 

And see, here we find ourselves in agreement again. I find most 'CCM' to be pretty shallow in comparison to the great hymns but it needs to be made clear that there is asolutely no Biblical ground for condemning those who are genuinely offering praise to God in music and song, no matter what genre they choose to do it in.

While we're on the subject of great hymns I can't help but think of 'And can it be'.I have to suppress the tears whenever I get to the fourth verse:

Long my imprisoned spirit lay,
Fast bound in sin and nature’s night;
Thine eye diffused a quickening ray—
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.

If all we had was the melody to this hymn (no words) none of the meaning you see in that verse could be communicated through it.It would just be a nice little ditty, not righteous, not sinful, just a tune morally indistuingishable from any tune.It's when the message is combined with the music that the real power of this hymn becomes evident!

 

Now you've got me up going through lyrics of my favorite songs

Here are a couple of my favorite from Keith Green, if you have any question as to whether 'CCM' can glorify God, one listening of these songs will dispell all doubts.

Make My Life A Prayer To You

Make my life a prayer to You,
I want to do what you want me to,
No empty words and no white lies,
No token prayers, no compromise,
I want to shine the light you gave,
Through Your Son, you sent to save us,
From ourselves and our despair,
It comforts me to know you're really there.

Oh, I want to thank you now, for being patient with me,
Oh, it's so hard to see, when my eyes are on me,
I guess I'll have to trust and just believe what you say,
Oh, you're coming again, coming to take me away,

I want to die, and let you give,
Your life to me, so I might live,
And share the hope you gave to me,
The love that set me free,
I want to tell the world out there,
You're not some fable or fairy tail,
That I made up inside my head,
You're God, The Son, you've risen from the dead.

Oh, I want to thank you now,
For being patient with me,
Oh, it's so hard to see,
When my eyes are on me,
I guess I'll have to trust,
and just believe what you say,

Oh, you're coming again,

Coming to take me away.

I want to die, and let you give,
Your life to me, so I might give,
And share the hope you gave to me,
I want to share the love that set me free.

From the moment of his conversion Keith was passionate about spreading the Gospel of salvation. He wrote this song in response to the evangelical stagnation of the church.This one isn't really a praise song as much as it is a serious wake up call for Christians everywhere.It is a tough message to swallow.The very last line of the song is Jesus calling to His bride (the church).

Asleep In The Light

Do you see, do you see, all the people sinking down,
Don't you care, don't you care, are you gonna let them drown,
How can you be so numb, not to care if they come,
You close your eyes and pretend the job's done.

Oh Bless me Lord, bless me Lord, you know it's all I ever hear,
No one aches, no one hurts, no one even sheds one tear,
But He cries, He weeps, He bleeds, and He cares for your needs,
And you just lay back and keep soaking it in, oh, can't you see it's such sin?

Cause He brings people to your door,
And you turn them away, as you smile and say,
God bless you, be at peace, and all Heaven just weeps,
Cause Jesus came to your door, you've left Him out on the streets.

Open up, open up, and give yourself away,
You've seen the need, you hear the cry, so how can you delay,
God's calling and you're the one, but like Jonah you run,
He's told you to speak, but you keep holding it in,
Oh, can't you see it's such sin?

The world is sleeping in the dark,
That the church can't fight, cause it's asleep in the light,
How can you be so dead, when you've been so well fed,
Jesus rose from the grave, and you, you can't even get out of bed,
Oh, Jesus rose from the dead, come on, get out of your bed.

How can you be so numb, not to care if they come,
You close your eyes and pretend the job's done,
You close your eyes and pretend the job's done,
Don't close your eyes, don't pretend the job's done.

Come away, come away, come away with Me, My love,
Come away, from this mess, come away with Me, My love.

You see this is where Aaron's argument gets shredded into tiny pieces and scattered in the wind.

Keith Green was on fire for the Lord.He was a man of no compromise, devoted to the Lord and constantly seeking His will.God used his ministry to lead so many to Christ.

Applying Aaron's philosophy to Keiths ministry is nothing less than sheer idiocy.I hope you can understand why my reaction to these unscriptural claims is such an adament opposition.

[ July 03, 2002, 05:11 AM: Message edited by: Odemus ]

 

This song has always touched me: It was sung by Mark Lowry: It's entitled, This Too, Shall Pass

"Woke up this morning with the years I spent, hanging heavy on my mind
At times I see so much in me I wished I'd left behind
But the one thing I've learned, as the years have turned
And they sure have traveled fast
I don't have to stay where I am today, because this too, shall pass..."

"This too, shall pass
This too, shall pass
And the tears that fall like raindrops down will finally dry at last
This too, shall pass."

"Sometimes I'm laughing with a crowd of friends,
And still I feel alone
There's a place inside full of tears I hide, that I've only cried alone
But I know that He's near and I know He hears
And I know these tears won't last
This pain today wil be swept away because this too, shall pass..."

"This too, shall pass
This too, shall pass
And the tears that fall like raindrops now will finally dry at last
This too, shall pass."

"As night turns into morning we will see the truth at last
The troubles come to eveyone
But they only come to pass..."

"This too, shall pass
This too, shall pass
And the tears that fall like raindrops now will finally dry at last
This too, shall pass."

This has touched me as well as given me hope, and surprise surprise!!! It's a CCM song... Not all evil, huh? Aaron?

In Christ's gracious love,
Teresa

[ July 03, 2002, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: baptistforever ]

 

LOL- so much for misspelling peoples names eh?

Bro. Adam

 

DHK said:

If secular rock music can be considered to be evil, then what is Christian rock, or CCM, but putting Christian lyrics to secular rock music?

If pornographic novels written in English can be considered to be evil, then what is an English Bible, but putting Christian Scriptures to a pagan language used for pornography?

 

Me???? Proven wrong???? Since when????

Actually I've had my backside kicked in many a debate.

You, on the other hand, haven't even touched me. At every turn you prove me right.

You again assert that the Scriptures lack moral criteria for judging music (which is the same as saying they're silent), yet you insist that

Now, how do you know that if there is no Scriptural criteria unless you judge according to your feelings? That is the heart of sensuality. Those who lack the Spirit have nothing else by which to gauge the morality of their actions. "They are sensual, not having the Spirit..." Jude 1:19.

Further evidence of your reliance upon your own feelings is in your judgment of me. You assume that I condemn rock music in all its forms because I don't find it pleasing. You also assume that I don't find it pleasing because I was never immersed in the counter culture or tasted the pleasures of sin for a season. Both assumptions are wrong, though how my past might make my arguments more significant I'm at a loss to comprehend. Those who have escaped the corruption of the world all their lives would be more qualified to make judgements than those who have wallowed in it 20 years or more and were snatched out as a brand from the fire.

Though you continually insist that music is in and of itself neutral (neither good nor evil), and that it is only the words that carry any meaning, you said that you will in no wise abandon your preferences in music for the sake of your brothers in Christ who have a conscience toward it as a thing offered unto an idol, though there is no shortage of psalms, hymns and songs without rock music--all having words as God-honoring, if not more so, than anything that has sprung forth from the CCM industry.

Don't tell me that you are glorifying God in all this.

Judging your heart? Hardly. Judging your fruit, definitely.

[ July 03, 2002, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

We are told not to do anything that will tempt a brother or sister in Christ, correct? Well, then, with that little command(whatever you want to call it) wouldn't it be safe to say, that if a fellow believer listened to something that tempted you when you were not there, then it would not be sin(depending on what it is)? And listening to certain types of music, such as CCM, would only be sinful if done in the presence of one who is tempted by it?

In Christ's gracious love,
Teresa