Once Saved always Saved

Dr. Bob · Sep 15, 2001

Interjecting two thoughts on this great discussion:

(1) Jesus spoke of wheat and tares. It is NOT UP TO US to try to figure out who was really saved and who was not. That is God's job, and He'll be upset if we try to take it away from Him!

There are people that I look at and think, "They are not saved". But they are. And others sitting in my church and I say, "They are wonderful Christians" and they are not regenerate. OT adage "man looks on the outward appearance" still holds true with Bob today.

(2) Salvation is of the Lord. We may meet people who feel they might lose it, are working hard to keep it, have been taught the Arminian heresy co-mingling works with grace AFTER salvation. We should feel sorry for them and pray for them.

But all they are is CONFUSED! Not lost, not working to get saved. They are saved 100% by the grace of God and sadly do not have the assurance because of bad theology. To be pitied and corrected (gently) but hey, I've been wrong in areas of my theology a number of times.

God must smile when He sees such. Like little children we don't all understand and accept truth. But that does not change the nature of TRUTH itself!

Hope these thoughts help.

Eladar · Sep 15, 2001

Bob,

Alot of your post I agree with. I am disturbed by some of it:

God must smile when He sees such. Like little children we don't all understand and accept truth. But that does not change the nature of TRUTH itself!

I think this is a devicive statement. I was a little insulted by it. It makes it sound as if you have it right and the others have it wrong. I think this subject lies in the region of arguing over the Law. Titus 3:9 warns us not to do such things.

Other than that, I agree. This subject has nothing to do with salvation. It just has to do with how those of us on earth understand things through an imperfect perspective.

Don · Sep 15, 2001

Tuor, I gave you your answer; sorry I muddled it.

John 10:28--I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any pluck them out of my hand.

Jesus Himself said that. If God promises you that, then be assured that He will keep His promises. And if you're assured that He will keep His promises, then be assured that you are His.

How do you know that YOU are truly saved? Only YOU can know that. Do you believe to the saving of your soul? Do you have the faith of a mustard seed? Of a little child?

Doubt comes when we aren't saved, have unconfessed sin, or are simply being attacked by Satan.

If I'm still muddling it up, please let me know.

Oh, and if I may--which part of Oklahoma are you in?

[ September 15, 2001: Message edited by: Don ]

Chris Temple · Sep 15, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:
Chris,

I am just trying to clarify things here. Are you saying that I am on the right track? If so, are you saying that my viewpoint would be in harmony with a Calvinist's viewpoint?

I am sure that I have the desire to serve God, I am not sure that my actions always show it. One thing for sure, my walk is in much closer harmony with the Bible today than it was a year ago. I can see growth and areas in which I can grow. Hopefully this will never change. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tuor, I think you are exactly on the right track.

The easy-believist has always said "I've made a decision for Christ, and I have no worries". The Calvinist, (Well represented by the Great Puritan Divines) always said "It is by grace that I am saved; were it up to me, I would assuredly flee from God as soon as possible. But by His amazing love and grace, He keeps me close to himself".

This is the answer to Hebrews 6 with which so many people have trouble. Believers are admonished to not fall away, for they assuredly would, if left to their own devices , but they are not, God keeps them in His hand, "For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister." Heb 6:10.

The elect are confident of their salvation for God has promised to keep them and has sworn upon His own name, because there is no name greater to swear on. Salvation is all of grace.

For an introduction to Puritan orthodoxy and orthopraxy, see
Why we Need the Puritans by J.I. Packer

John Wells · Sep 15, 2001

Chris Temple said, ""It is by grace that I am saved; were it up to me, I would assuredly flee from God as soon as possible. But by His amazing love and grace, He keeps me close to himself".

Brother, that describes me to a "T." There are times - moments when I don't want to "finish the race," "fight the good fight," but God keeps me on track, or picks me up when I stumble and loves me back into His will and graces. What an awesome God we serve!

Eladar · Sep 15, 2001

Thanks Chris.

Don,

I believe John 10:28 is talking about the elect. This I have already agreed is true of the elect.

I have been doing some reading and read 1 John, in it I believe I have found an answer to my question.

1 John 1:6-7 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Therefore if we live a lifestyle of the spirit this is a sign that we are saved. If we live a lifestyle of the flesh, then this is a sign that we are not saved.

1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

If we confess ours sins then we will be saved. If we don't confess our sins, God will not forgive our sins. The reason for this is because if we are unwilling to confess our sins, God is not within us.

1 John 2:3-4 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, " I have come to know Him," and does not deep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him

If we keep God's commandments, then we are saved. If we don't keep God's commandments, there is a reason and that reason is that we do not know God.

1 John 2:9-11 The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now. The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

This tells me that another way of knowing we are saved is that we love our brothers. If we don't love our brothers, then we are not saved. If we do things that cause our brother to stumble we are not saved.

1 John 2:15 Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Those of us who love money are not saved.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

There are those who will be among the elect who will appear to be of the elect, but eventually they will show their true colors. These people will eventually show by their actions that God is not in them.

1 John 2:23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

If you deny Jesus is the Christ, you are not saved.

These are some of the scriptures that spoke to me and what I understand them to say. If you have a different take on the scriptures I posted I would be fascinated to hear them.

Dr. Bob · Sep 15, 2001

Tuor - Take no offense please. Just read the preceding sentence before judging me too harshly: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Dr. Bob saidI've been wrong in areas of my theology a number of times. God must smile when He sees such. Like little children we don't all understand and accept truth. But that does not change the nature of TRUTH itself!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I was including myself right in with everyone. I am not self-righteous and certainly do not want to be divisive. We ALL have a lot of learning and growing to do!

John Wells · Sep 15, 2001

Tuor,

Very good. Isn't 1 John wonderful? The only thing that I would submit is that scripture says that we are not without sin, and that we must ask for forgiveness when we sin, so the statement about "keeping commandments" means that we display the habit of obedience, not the perfection of obedience. In believers this habit becomes natural. For unbelievers, the habit is disobedience.

Paul's similar argument is found in Romans 6:16-23 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (NKJV)

God bless!

[ September 15, 2001: Message edited by: John Wells ]

Don · Sep 16, 2001

Agree with John Wells.

Tuor, are you changing the question?

What exactly are you looking for? I thought I knew, but every time I answer it, you come up with a slightly different version.

And you really need to expand on your use of "the elect"; do you believe in the Calvinist doctrine of predestination?

Daniel Davidson · Sep 16, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I guess the true question is how do we know if someone is truely saved. If a person falls away, then he/she was never truely saved, they only appeared to be saved.

So I guess I am asking how do we know we are truely saved and not apparently saved.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know you are saved because the Holy Spirit make you feel assured that you are saved. If you backslide later, that proves that it was not the Holy Spirit making you feel assured, it was just a trick you played on yourself. There is no way to tell the difference.

Hmm, when I put it like that, which is a pretty fair representation of how it's been explained to me, I begin to see your point. I guess what Jesus says in the parable of the sower is that you have to bear fruit or you are not saved. But that mean then that fruit is evidence of salvation. How can this be?

Eladar · Sep 16, 2001

Miscommunication is a dangerous thing. It often leads to defensiveness which colors the way we see things.

Bob,

I am sorry if I misunderstood what you were saying. Since your disclaimer about being wrong about things was in the paragraph about how those who believe in the Arminian herecy are confused, I thought your comment was only about them. No where in your post did I ever get the feeling that you thought you could be wrong on this issue. If you do, then I am sorry for misunderstanding what you meant to say. I was just letting you what I saw. It wasn't judgemental, just communicating. Thank you for communicating your concerns back to me. Sorry if you felt attacked.

Don,

I don't believe I have been changing my question. I was asking how is it that a person knows that they are apart of the elect.

I define the elect as those people who God knows will be saved.

From those who believe in the once saved always saved doctrine, I hear that we know we are saved from our heart. We feel saved, therefore we are saved. I also hear that even if you do fall away, you are still saved by God's grace.

What 1 John says is different. John gives specific outward signs of being saved(read my last post). John even says that there were some who appeared to be saved, but really weren't (2:19). To say that they knew in their hearts that they were never saved is putting into the scriptures that which is not there. The only evidence that it is possible for those who fall away and aren't saved originally believing they were saved is the parable of the seeds. The rocks and the weed ridden have the seed of God's truth growing in their heart. This tells me that they believed and at one point believed they were saved.

Don, I would appreciate it if you would tell me what you understood my original question to be and what the new one you think I am changing it to.

Thanks,

Nils

Chris Temple · Sep 16, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:
I define the elect as those people who God knows will be saved.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tuor, they are much more than that. That would merely mean that God chooses those whom He knows will choose Him. If that were the case, man would be sovereign and not God.

The elect are those chosen by God to be saved before the foundation of the world. They are those who are enemies of God, as all sinners are, but on whom God has shed His mercy by regenerating their hearts so that they desire to believe in Him. They are the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory (Rom 9:23), and are those chosen in Him "before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved." (Eph 1:4-6).

Were it not for God's electing mercy, no one would be saved.

See the very long thread,
Freewill and Predestination

[ September 16, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

Eladar · Sep 16, 2001

I was trying to be general enough so that most everyone could agree with it.

The Predestination vs Free Will debate I'm not into. To me it is a debatable matter, and therefore best to be left alone.

I was just trying to figure out the Biblical justification of the once saved always saved doctrine and how is a saved person supposed to know if he/she is saved.

Thanks for your concern. I am not quite the "free will" hard liner I used to be.

Don · Sep 17, 2001

Tuor, if you re-look at the parable of the seed, you see the same thing you brought up from 1 John. Seeds that believe, but do not produce.

Those that "believe"--but not to the saving of their soul--walk and talk like Christians, but will have to face the "I never knew you" music.

Consider: 1 John was written AFTER the parable of the sowing of the seeds. Is it not an "echo" of Jesus told us in that parable?

Or like my pastor said just last night: We've got a lot of people out there who are as doctrinally correct as a rifle barrel...and just as hollow....

Eladar · Sep 17, 2001

In 1 John, God has given us tangeble proof of salvation. I have already listed those outward signs. I believe that if it were just a feeling, then God would have told us it was just a feeling.

By the way, if feelings were always correct, we wouldn't have near the problems that we do. I believe that feelings can also have a physical basis. Therefore to judge things on feelings alone is dangerous indeed.

This is why I believe that God gave us such warnings as 1 John.

By the way, exactly who beliefs are like the shot gun is what people argue about. I have a theory on exactly who such people are. It's the guy who disagrees with you!

Don · Sep 17, 2001

Now, with that, I have to agree with you!!!

Again--may I ask which part of Oklahoma you're writing us from?

I spent a couple of years down around the Lake Texoma area....

Don · Sep 17, 2001

One other thing about your response: "Tangible proof" can get a lot of people in trouble.

When we start entering a doctrine of "you MUST do this," we usually end up becoming Pharisees all over again.

Not saying you're incorrect about 1 John; just saying that we have to watch ourselves when we start saying "if you don't do exactly what the scripture says, then I'm gonna doubt your salvation," well, we've just placed ourselves in the position of the judge of others' salvation....

An example: A man I knew (it's hard for me to call him a pastor) told us that if we weren't out door-knocking (i.e., spreading the Word) every Saturday, well, there was a problem with our walk with Christ. The answer to this man, and others, is found in 1 Peter 4:11 -- let every man minister as of the ability which God giveth.

Just a caution, Tuor. Not really meant to mean anything.

Eladar · Sep 17, 2001

I agree, once we start setting up man's implications as God's commandments, we are becoming like the Pharisees. This is a very Biblical warning.

I'm from Blanchard, just south of OKC.

[ September 17, 2001: Message edited by: Tuor ]

Sim · Sep 17, 2001

Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he
whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and
not sons.
Has God ever "Chastised" you for doing something you shouldn't?
God doesn't chastise other peoples children, only "HIS OWN".

Once saved, always saved.
Look at "Israel", God "Chose" them in the OT, and even being "enemies of the
Gospel", they are still "ELECT".
Ro 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the
election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

A "saved person" (or nation) can "revolt" against God as Israel has done.

Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their
own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

In such a case God will "turn them over to Satan", BUT, they are still saved.

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit
may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Job's "flesh" was turned over to Satan, but he wasn't allow to kill Job.

During the Tribulation period, Satan will have "power over the flesh" of all who refuse to
worship "his image", even to killing them who have the "testimony of Christ".

Re 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that
were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

God will "NEVER" undo anything he has done. In his "foreknowledge", he knew the day
he save you what you were going to do for the rest of your life, there are no surprises to
God.

ddavis · Sep 18, 2001

Tuor, Titus tells us that God can not lie, so I ask this question? Show me scpriture that shows the Holy Spirit leaving someone once the He has indwelt that person.

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