Do people never hearing about Jesus go to Hell?

PTW,
Fair question.............
I am in a discussion with some Reformed Baptists who are emphatically stating that unless a man understands the gospel and it's components, there is no way he may be saved. In other words, a man must know all about Christ, the death, burial and resurection, believe, trust, repent etc, otherwise, he will perish.

I am in no way implying that this theory is not the general consensus; It is biblical! But can you literally hold to this idea to the point you have shortened the arm of God to save them that cannot understand? Cannot hear (the Imbecile)?

Preach the word I already know the answer in reference to my Son but you won't agree with it so why bring it up!... Grace has always been free!... Brother Glen

Where did we get the notion, as mentioned in the opening of this thread, that God must somehow be "fair?"

Folks, especially non-believers, seem to confuse who God is with what He does, as though Justice and Love are mutually exclusive.

Scott Bushey, the points you address were part of my thesis research. I have my own beliefs which I feel scripture indicates, but I have yet to express them in the REAL world. On the other hand, I also refuse to give the grieving mother, who just lost an infant or young child, false hope by asserting that the child will be waiting in heaven. It's just not my call. I end up defering to Romans 9:15, which comes from Exodus 33:19. He will have mercy on whomever He chooses, because He is sovereign.

I'd recommend a book to you; it's In the Name of Jesus, by Henri J. M. Nouwen. It deals with the imbeciles you mention and moves me in its simple style. Again, I have my views about the mentally challenged or retarded, based upon my own experiences.

Bottom line, I think those who have not heard are still accountable for the revelation they have received, and will be condemned for forsaking that revelation during the judgement, even unto the second death.

David

David,
Thanks for your post. You write: I have my own beliefs which I feel scripture indicates, but I have yet to express them in the REAL world. On the other hand, I also refuse to give the grieving mother, who just lost an infant or young child, false hope by asserting that the child will be waiting in heaven. It's just not my call. I end up defering to Romans 9:15, which comes from Exodus 33:19. He will have mercy on whomever He chooses, because He is sovereign.

Scott replies: I agree fully! I have most recently been in a feverish exchange w/ some Reformed Baptists who emphatically insist that a man cannot be saved yet he:
1) Hear the gospel (Audibly).
2) Have a knowledge of who Jesus is.
3) Understands their sin condition.
4) Believes in Christ and the resurection.

Whilst I do not disagree with their position, I have challenged them in light of, *the imbecile, the infant, John the Baptist, Jeremiah, Jacob and possibly Paul the apostle*.

You also state: Bottom line, I think those who have not heard are still accountable for the revelation they have received,

Scott asks:
What revelation do you speak of? Are you implying that men receive something "extra-biblical"? If so, can you provide me w/ some examples and scripture?

Thanks David.

[ August 27, 2002, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]

Originally posted by Scott Bushey:
Scott asks:
What revelation do you speak of? Are you implying that men receive something "extra-biblical"? If so, can you provide me w/ some examples and scripture?

Click to expand...

Scott, thanks for the affirmation and the next questions. I only speak of general revelation available to all men, per Romans 1. I like the missionic book developed by Don Richardson, Eternity in Their Hearts, citing Eccl 3:11. Missionically, I do tend to believe that all of mankind is "hardwired" by the Creator to seek Him, the famous "God-shaped vacuum," if you will. We do find from time to time that a some cultures have been given a special revelation, such as a tribal member who receives a vision that gets interpreted according to the culture. I can't remember the author of the autobiography, Baruchko, (is it Bruce???), who related a vision of a cut banana plant that was fulfilled in seeing a Bible, and opened the way for the Gospel to be presented.

I hope this points us in the right direction and provides a couple of scriptures and an example or two of my own convictions.

David

This is a topic many are confused by and difficult for others to grasp. Many want to make a way for those who are not followers of Christ to make themselves and others feel better and more comfortable with God. Truth is that people go to hell and hell is forever just like heaven is.

Romans 9, says alot about Gentiles and Israel who do not believe. Why would there be reward for those who do not seek His face?

Romans continues from there telling the importance of being saved, receiving Christ.

Rom 5:1..we are justified by faith. This is faith in Christ, not faith that there is some god or some creator out there. The devil knows God is the creator of earth, he was cast out of haven. The devil knows Jesus is Lord, Savior, but the devil rejects Christ, he will not be returning to heaven.

Acts 16:31 "...believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved..."

Acts 3:19 and Luke 24:46-47 both speak about the importance of repentance through the shed blood of Christ.

It is hard to tell people that there will be people who go to hell. Children that are not at the age of accountability and those adults who will never be able to be acountable due to mental illness will see the kingdom of God. but adults who do not except Christ as Lord will unfortunately not be with the Lord.

What do you tell the people that make accusations about this? Tell them that God desires all to be saved, but not all will be. Why? because of man's sin. at one time everyone on earth was able to hear the scriptures, but men who wanted to rid earth of God's word, much like many groups in America are trying today, and other foreign bodies continue to wipe out believers have made it incerasingly difficult for God's word to be shared. When these people try to blame God for people going to hell, tell them the truth, it isn't His fault, it is man's. Satan also works through man, he doesn't care if man believes in him, just as long as they believe in something other than God. When cultures worship the creation not the creator they are doomed.

It isn't all the world's fault though. When we Christians don't do our job as disciples of Jesus we too are responcible. There are believers who go through their whole life without sharing the truth of Christ with one person. That is a shame. Imagine if the original disciples decided to keep Christ to themselves. We believers have a responcibility to share the love of God and truth of heaven and hell.

Yes people go to hell, and it is a place of torment. God doesn't decide they are to go, man decides they don't want to be with God. Why would God make a person spend eternity with Him when they did not want to spend there short earthly life with Him? They get what they want, separtion from Him. As on earth not everthing man wants is good for him. Those who don't hear God's word, He is revealed to them through thoughts that there has to be a creator, from there they must seek out the Lord. If one is thirsty they seek out water. To those who seek Christ He will be revealed. There is Christianity on every contenant, truth can be found by those who seek Him. Those who teach false doctrines and beliefs like budism, muslum, mormonism etc. they will suffer the concequences for their actions, not just for their beliefs, but also for the deception of others.

Sometimes the truth hurts

Fearnot... Just one question... Are we worshipping the same God? ... Brother Glen

Fear not,
Did you read the fullness of this thread? If not, please do, as it will direct you in the things we have been discussing.

Those involved in this discussion understand total depravity and the doctrine of hell. No one is complaining against God. We know everything God does is good, fair and right. We also understand that Hell is for satan and his minion and that the only subjects in Heaven will be Gods regenerate given He by His grace alone.

You speak of *age of accountability*. This illicit theory denies total depravity and perseverance of the saint. These subjects are ones who have sanctifying and justifying components that are temporary. At a certain age, they lose these God given attributes; literally, they go from being saved to being unsaved. The day before they turn twelve, they are in Gods grace, the day after they turn twelve, they may be transferred to a state of perishing. This concept Flies in the face of total depravity and perseverance of the saint.

Also, based on what you have posed, *ALL* Imbeciles go to Hell?

[ August 28, 2002, 07:46 AM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]

Scott, I do believe that a person must understand the Gospel in order to be saved. That means that it can be via sign language also. That is a language and the gospel is still proclaimed. According to Paul, that is biblical (Rom.1:16; 10:9-17; I Cor. 1:21). According to primitive baptists, it is unbiblical. They apparently know more than Paul. Anyhow, that is just one of their odd beliefs. I think they hold to it more from emotionalism than anything else.

I am calvinistic. I have no problem though believing that God can have mercy on the infant, imbecile, etc. I think the people you listed give an indication of that (Jeremiah, John the Baptist, etc). I think to go beyond that though is foolishness and enters into the idea of always questioning and never coming to truth.

Glen, just one question: does your son profess to be a Christian?

PTW,
You write:
Scott, I do believe that a person must understand the Gospel in order to be saved.

I am calvinistic. I have no problem though believing that God can have mercy on the infant, imbecile, etc.

Scott asks:
Are you not contradicting yourself here? How can you reconcile the two ideas? How about the Hitchawatchee Indian? The woman that has never heard the gospel? Does not the scripture you quote out of Romans state, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy upon... not just on the infant or imbecile? PTW, from what you are proposing, it cannot be both, yet you imply, it may be both. Which is it?

Could the Primitive Baptist be on to something?

Yes, the primitives are onto something. It is called unorthodoxy.

My position is not conflicting in the matter. You mention Romans 1. It without distinction condemns all under sin and in need of the gospel.

The Scripture also seems to indicate though that babies (I include imbeciles since you did originally) do in fact go to heaven.

In order to resolve the tension in my mind (not that it has to be), I opt to say that the baby goes to heaven out of God's mercy. You can push me on the point and that is fine. I cannot give you a definite answer on the issue. I can only go by what the Scripture reveals. God has chosen to reveal very little in the matter concerning babies. The woman indian has seen the glory of God and surpressed the truth.

I know that the Judge of the earth will always do what is right.

PTW,
You write:
You mention Romans 1. It without distinction condemns all under sin and in need of the gospel.

Scott replies:
I do not believe anyone involved here on this board would argue this point.
Actually I mentioned Romans chapter 9.

You write:
The Scripture also seems to indicate though that babies (I include imbeciles since you did originally) do in fact go to heaven.

Scott asks:
Where in scripture do you see this? Please present scripture.
You just reconciled the fact that Romans chapter 1 states that men are under condemnation for their sin (I add, "In Adam"). How can a baby or imbecile be above this inherant virus brought on by the first Adam?

You add:
In order to resolve the tension in my mind (not that it has to be), I opt to say that the baby goes to heaven out of God's mercy. You can push me on the point and that is fine. I cannot give you a definite answer on the issue. I can only go by what the Scripture reveals. God has chosen to reveal very little in the matter concerning babies.

Scott answers:
Gods word is clear.........."ALL" have sinned (My emphasis added).

You add:
The woman indian has seen the glory of God and surpressed the truth.

Scott again asks:
With all due respect, so then, this indian can be saved without the written or spoken Gospel presentation? Natures glory can reveal God in a salvific fashion?

PTW,Brother,
Here's the point.........You yourself have acknowledged that God acts out of the orthodox(The written or spoken Gospel)in regards to babies and imbeciles. Yet you call the Primitive Baptist "unorthodox" in their approach, when their approach is rationally the same as yours.

Scott, I will be brief.

I said I am calvinistic. That means I embrace total depravity. All conceived in Adam are conceived in sin and will die. Even babies are a part of this group.

Salvation comes through the gospel alone. God has ordained that His elect will hear the gospel and believe it. This is supported by Scripture already mentioned (of which the primitives have never answered by the way).

In regards to babies, you listed several examples. Although I don't know if you can use John, Jeremiah, and Paul as examples. They were set apart and called from the womb, but not saved there.

I believe the story of David's son is a pretty clear example. Also, Jesus picked up a little child (if I remember, the greek say infant) and said that the kingdom of heaven is likened unto them. I believe it is a mercy issue with God. Now, like I said, you can push me if you want. I am not trying to run or hide. However, given the Scripture, I believe my position is biblical.

As far as primitives go, they are wrong. I have waited I don't know how long for them to answer those passages. I have read where one primitive has said that some muslims will wake up in heaven. WRONG! They are all going to hell. What about John 14:6? I guess it doesn't really mean what it says.

I have read many books on Judaism and what I have understood of what I read the parents believe that any sin committed by a child falls upon them until that child reaches the age of accountability which is 13 years of age.

They also teach that a person who is mentally challenged if they do not have the mental capacity to know right from wrong then they will not be held accountable for their sins. Yet there are those who are mentally challenged who do know right from wrong and they will be held accountable for their sins.

The High Priest Eli was judged because he did not correct his sons sinfulness. God was going to kill Moses because he had not had his son circumcized. It seems that God does hold parents responsible for the sins of their children but did this all stop at Calvary?

Yes Christ did die to stop the curse of the Law but was this part of the curse of the Law or is this just principles of life that God has laid down. The Bible says the sins of the parents could be brought down to the fourth generation. Did this end with Calvary. Many say it has but I know of a lot of Christians who seem to suffer from the sins of their parents or forefathers.

The bible talks about God protecting the innocent so are we going to say that God is going to cast innocent babies who do not know sin into Hell?
Again this all goes back to the erroneous belief that mankind will go to hell because of original sin. Adam and Eve sinned in the guardian. This in term cursed mankind to have a sin nature. The sin Adam and Eve committed in the Garden was disobedience and rebellion. Mankind commits more sins then these two. PEOPLE WILL NOT BE IN HELL BECAUSE OF THE SINS THEY COMMIT. THEY WILL BE IN HELL BECAUSE THEY REJECT CHRIST. BABIES WHO HAVE NO ABILITY TO ACCEPT A GOSPEL CANNOT REJECT CHRIST. The gospel has to be preached and comprehended for a person to accept Christ or reject him. Yet this will start an argument with the Calvinists because they don't believe a person has a choice in acceptance or rejection.

Preach the Word: There is a thread to debate Calvinism and this is not it. It it time for the moderators to start correcting those who stand for Calvinism to debate this in the proper location because the Calvinist get offended if someone else brings up their beliefs outside of the Calvinism vs Arminiasm thread and tells us to take it there so turn about is fair play.

hrhema, I was not debating Calvinism. I have NEVER told someone to go to another thread or forum. I was agreeing with Scott and affirming a common position between us so the discussion between us could continue without vagueness. Read the posts a little more carefully.

Have a nice day.

PTW,
Thanks for your posts!
I am concerned with a few items.

In one breath you write:
I said I am calvinistic. That means I embrace total depravity. All conceived in Adam are conceived in sin and will die. Even babies are a part of this group.

And in another you state:
I opt to say that the baby goes to heaven out of God's mercy.

Scott replies:
* This is an apparent contradiction, and theoretically denies the doctrine of total depravity!

You also state:
Salvation comes through the gospel alone. God has ordained that His elect will hear the gospel and believe it. This is supported by Scripture already mentioned (of which the primitives have never answered by the way).

You then contradict this by stating:

The woman indian has seen the glory of God and surpressed the truth.

Scott inquires:
* I assume you mean "in nature". No gospel preaching here though.......

PTW,
With all the love I can muster......
I am befuddled.

[ August 28, 2002, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]

Hrhema,
Let me ask you........what did Christ come for? To save sinners? Romans ch 6 states that the wages of sin is death??? Are babies held accountable to the inherent sin of their ancestor Adam? Romans ch 3 state that *ALL* have sinned!

Ultimately, your premise is accurate. Reject Christ and perish. Christ is the final sacrifice right? For what? Sin!

By accepting Christ, one is justified. Imputation is completed. In the idea of imputation, sin is tansferred from my account and yours, to the saviors account.

It is because of sin that Christ has come.

The Calvinist view is correct, thats for the other forum though....

* I am not pro or con in regards to the infant issue. I am, however, using it as balance in regards to those who say that the gospel (Gods Good News) must be revealed audibly or in written form, that men must have a certain level of knowledge of Christ to be saved.

Brother Glenn... What exactly is your point? Do you not believe in hell? Do you not believe people go to hell? That is the fact whether you believe it or not. It is our responcibility to witness to all nations. When we fall down on the job, people suffer.

Scott... I was answering the original question, sorry if I did not address the things other people were talking about. Actually I did say that mentally handicapped people would not have to suffer hell. They will never be accountable if they can not hear comprehend or even be able to discuss God. I have worked with the mentally handicapped before, some will never be able to even speak, God is just, He knows there is no way for them to ever accept.

The same goes for babies aborted or very young children. Accountablity to me is just that, when one is able to understand not a particular age. To that I might be wrong, and am open to further biblical study.

Scott, do you recognize tensions in the Bible? You can embrace one side and ignore the other. You can ignore both sides. You can seek to reconcile them or leave them alone. One such tension is in the realm of eschatology. Some passages state that the kingdom of God is here. Others state that it is still future.

How about Sovereignty and responsibility?

I listed examples and possibilities as to why I believe what I do. Scripture is not overwhelming in its evidence as to the state of babies. I think it strongly favors that they go to heaven.

A persons life span has been preordained by God and will not exist a day longer. Also, God made the mute, deaf, imbecile, etc.

I also base my position on the fact that they have not rejected Christ (John 3:18). This is going to be a pointless thread very quickly. We do not concern ourselves with the salvation of infants. We seek to persuade people who can understand. I trust in God to always do what is right and leave it at that.