The Rapture....

Posttrib,

I Thess. 4:17 'caught up' and Rev. 19:11, you say, will take place all at one time. Saints will be caught up to the cloud where Jesus is and then we will take the fast trip down to earth again. Why the brief trip to the cloud and then that fast excursion down to the earth? Where would you like to drop in the Judgment Seat of Christ? When does He evaluate the 'good works' of all Christians from all ages?

Dr. Berrian

 

We ascend from all over the world and meet him in the clouds and then follow Him down to where he lands. I don't see a problem with that.
I believe the judgment seat will be sometime right after all of this when He is finished with the nations.

 

Dear Mr. Berrian, and…
Dear Mr. Thomas (my favorite debater),

Dr. Berrian, you claim that much of biblical theology was under the cloud of Romanism. Yes, because it is very much still is! Right now!

1. William Biederwolf, a premillenialist, (Prophecy Handbook, 1991, World Bible Publishers) says that the “Futurist” system of bible interpretation where this nonsensical rapture is a foundational stone, “was launched in 1580 by the Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera, to relieve the terrible stigma cast upon it by the Protestant interpretation (Historical School), tried to do so by referring these prophecies to the distant future, instead of like Alcazar to the distant past.”

In short, what Ribera did was to make the Pope a saint!

2. Robert Caringola (Seventy Weeks: The Historical Alternative, 1991) says, “in 1585, a Jesuit priest named Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) started to work independently. He looked deep into the realm of Biblical prophecy. The result of his work was a twisting and maligning of prophetic truth. Ribera’s Futuristic interpretation of Daniel chapter nine was furthered by the work of another Jesuit, Cardinal Robert Bellarmine.”

3. Now, Mr. Thomas, in Dave MacPherson’s book (The Incredible Coverup) the rapture’s “occultic” tie-up with a certain Margaret MacDonald is documented. He quotes Samuel P. Tregelles, an early Plymouth Brethren scholar of the 1830s and an associate of John Nelson Darby, “I was not aware that there was any definite teaching that there would be a secret rapture of the church at the second coming, until this was given forth as an ‘utterance’ in Mr. Irving’s church, [by Margaret MacDonald] from what was there received as being the voice of the Spirit. But whether anyone asserted such a thing or not, it was from that supposed revelation that the modern doctrine and the modern phraseology respecting it arose. It came not from the Holy Scriptures, but from that which pretended itself to be the Spirit of God...[OUCH!]

4. Dave MacPherson says, “In John Darby’s book, the Irrationalism of Infidelity (1853) pp. 283-285, he describes in detail his visit to Margaret MacDonald in her home in mid-1830, and even talked about her endtime outlook and the Scriptural texts she used for support!”

Mr. Thomas, you’re gonna say, there’s no proof that Darby got his pretrib views from MacDonald! Again, I quote MacPherson, “Darby himself wrote in his "Short but serious Examination of...'Daniel the Prophet'" (1850), p. 67, that he came to "understand" pretrib in 1830 and not 1827----an understanding that came to him only after the Irvingite journal The Morning Watch (which he regularly read) began to clearly teach pretrib in its Sep., 1830 issue (which saw "Philadelphia" raptured, in a partial rapture scheme, before "the great tribulation," pp. 510, 514!).

Hmmmm…let’s see now:

1. Margaret MacDonald “uttered” visions of pretrib-escapist fare.
2. Darby visited Margaret MacDonald, a fact he admitted in his writings.
3. Margaret MacDonald was an Irvingite.
4. Darby admitted understanding pretrib in 1830 after reading an Irvingite journal.

Now, Mr. Thomas, do I have to give you new glasses for you to see an occultic connection?

 

I believe the purpose of the rapture is to gather the resurrected dead and the transformed living (1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) all together in the sky with Jesus so that we can be judged (Psalms 50:4-5, Mark 13:27) and married (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds, before Armageddon.

This is why the wedding's consummation isn't announced until immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-14). I believe that after we've been judged and married, we'll all get on our white horses, the clouds will part, "heaven" will be "opened" (Revelation 19:11), and we'll all descend with Christ to the battle (Revelation 19:14-15), and then land in Jerusalem for the supper (Revelation 19:9, Isaiah 25:5-9).

The Lord could take his time judging us in the clouds and still it would not have to take very long in our time, for "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years" (2 Peter 3:8). Also, just as God now listens to all of our prayers at the same time and works in all of our daily lives down to the smallest details all at the same time, so he could judge all of us simultaneously.

http://www.geocities.com/postrib

 

BrianT said:

Thomas, you said "A book written in 1677 outlines the pre trib position exactly as it is taught by most dispensationalists today. Quotes from the patristics support a pre trib rapture as early as the late 3rd century."

Please provide more information about this 1677 book and the 3rd century quotes.

Seconded. (I'd also like to see a justification as to why one single book is "proof" that the pre-trib position was anything more than a fringe belief before the mid-19th century.)

 

IT is interesting to see these amills and postmills argue against a pretrib rapture using the "new belief" method. (It is new, therefore it is wrong.)

Assuming for the sake of argument that it is new (although I don't grant it), it seems that they are caught in an inconsistency. Their view of the kingdom was the "new belief" in the early part of church history, the first century. No one prior to them had ever held such a view. In fact, those early preachers of the "kingdom" (the apostles) did not previously hold such a view (cf Acts 1, 3). Why was it okay in the first century to hold a new view (not clearly and explicityly supported by Scripture incidentally) while the "newness" of the pretribulationism automatically disqualifies it?

Of course, I am not granting that pretribulationism is a new view. I believe it was the view of Christ, Paul, and John. I am questioning the consistency of these types of arguments.

[ March 26, 2002, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

One major difference is that NT scripture wasn't even yet written when the Apostles started preaching, and wasn't finished until long after most of them were dead. If the pretrib view is new (which I believe it is), the church had roughly 1800 years of *closed* scripture in which pretrib was "missed" at best and "lost" at worst. It would be odd indeed for the church to go so long and be completely backwards on such an important doctrine, IMHO. I too am not arguing (right now ) when the pretrib view originated, but answering you question and pointing out an issue I have with relatively late (or extremely late) "new beliefs".

Thanks for the bump on my question to Thomas, Ransom. I was wondering if he missed the post, and I'm anxious for his reply.

Brian

 

postrib,

If I understand your post clearly I agree with what you said. I do believe that Christ will come for His church, which won't be a secret rapture. The shout of the archangel, the trumpet of God and empty graves apparently will not be a secret and quiet event. [I Thess. 4:17] I never understood how anyone could believe in a SECRET rapture. Theologians have chosen to use the term, rapture, so I use it. This simply means that Christ will come for His church, a promise given by Him in John chapter 14.

The rapture will take place, then the seven year Great Tribulation and then the return of the church at His Second Coming as found in Revelation 19:11. During the seven year period in Heaven, we will be evaluated for our 'good works' at the Judgment Seat of Christ. I believe the Marriage of the Lamb [Rev. 19:7} will take place in Heaven before we return with Him in Rev. 19:11. That's why we are called presently, 'the bride of Christ,' because we are the bride who is about to be married to Him. I have not decided if the 'Marriage Supper of the Lamb' [Rev. 19:9] will take place in Heaven or perhaps at the beginning of the Millinimum.

 

RobertGuwapo,

According to one major block of Christendom, we are all 'off line' as to correct theology.

I have read, 'on line' some of J.N. Darby's eschatology. It is very good. At least he was not like Amillennialists who merely speak of the Last Day without placing all of the events of eschatology in some kind of reasonable order. I don't know if you are an Amillennialist, so I'm not trying to personally chip away at you or your view.

A theoretical view of one coming of Jesus at the Second Coming comes out of Augustinian Theology that was never corrected by the Protestant reformers. They were content to argue about Calvinism and Arminianism. Many Calvinists have merely rubber stamped the theology of John Calvin and Martin Luther without, first studying the Bible, the Word of the Living God. So the error continues on . . . Thank God for men of God like Merrill C. Tenney, John Walvoord and Ryrie who have led us into a clearer view of end times events.

Darby was a lot closer to correct eschatological truth than Amillennialism who let it all ride on until the Last Day--the final Judgment Day.

Respectfully,

Ray

 

The premillenial view was unquestionable the view of believers before Augustine and Origen. This is admitted to by Louis Berkhof(sp?). He is no friend of premillenialism. We find no written record of the timing of the rapture (except of course in Scripture). Amills believe in the doctrine of imminence; they just say that that is it. I believe in imminence along with the premillenial position. Also, an argument from newness is based on history. How many people got away with anti-Catholic writings? Very few if any. So the absense of premillenialism in historical writings is irrelevant. The Scripture contains it and that is all that is needed.

[ March 26, 2002, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: PreachtheWord ]

 

However, in my analogy, it is the OT doctrine of the Kingdom that was long settled by the OT Scriptures. This doctrine of the kingdom was testified to at least 1000 years earlier and the part of the doctrine relating to the land stretches back perhaps 2200 years.

And in the analogy, the apostles had roughly 2200 years of millennial kingdom teaching in closed Scripture where the amill or postmill view was "missed" at best and "lost" at worst.

Precisely the point of my analogy. In AD30, just after the resurrection of Christ, you would have us believe that the apostles all the sudden came up with a new doctrine -- this new kind of kingdom -- never before understood or preached by anyone prior to them. (BTW, I assert that they did not preach this doctrine you claim they did).

My question is this: Why was it okay for the apostles to espouse a new doctrine in spite of 2200 years of consistent interpretation while it is wrong for the pretribulationist to accept a "new" doctrine in spite of only 1800 years of interpretation (which is not the least bit consistent in many regards).

I think Ray hit the nail on the head when he references the different eras of doctrine. In different periods of church history, different doctrines have been at the center of discussion. For many years it was Christology (see the Arianism, Sabellianism, etc.). For many years it was soteriology (Calvinism, Arminianism, etc.). Now it is eschatology.

 

I have not read a few of the posts in this thread, and it appears that messed me up, so I'm not sure exactly what *you're* referring to when you say "the doctrine of the kingdom". I will go back and reread the posts to get the correct context, think about it some more and maybe answer later. Disregard my previous post, I am confused.

BTW, I am on the fence between premill and amil, but I believe Christ words have a strong amil flavor. The only amil sticking point I see in scripture is the more natural interpretation of Rev 20.

Brian

 

Some believe the rapture must be pre-trib and must take us all the way into heaven because of John 14:1-3. But note that there Jesus simply said "I will come again, and receive you unto myself." He didn't say he would come back before the tribulation or that he would take us into heaven.

He said "I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." Note that he says we will be where he is after he comes again. He says nothing about his making a U-turn back into heaven. And indeed we will be where he is after he comes again: on the earth during the millenium (Revelation 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29).

I believe Jesus said "In my Father's house are many mansions... I go to prepare a place for you," to show why he was going, not why he was coming back, and to show that he still has great and eternal plans for us in New Jerusalem, where the Father will dwell with us after the millenium (Revelation 21:1-3).

Note that in no scripture are we promised a rapture before the tribulation. Jesus said he would come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul said Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

Note that the Bible shows neither the judgment nor the marriage of the church nor the marriage supper as happening before or during the tribulation, or in heaven.

The marriage and supper are not announced until the 2nd coming, immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon: "The marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb... And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean" (Revelation 19:7-9, 14).

"The bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage" (Matthew 25:10).

After the tribulation, I believe the rapture will gather us into the clouds to be judged (Psalms 50:4-5, Mark 13:27) and married (Revelation 19:7) before Armageddon. The supper will be on the earth after Armageddon (Revelation 19:17, Isaiah 25:5-9).

http://www.geocities.com/postrib

 

Postrib,

The purpose of the Great Tribulation is not to punish the church; we are not perfect but don't deserve and will not receive the horrendous punishments that will be poured out on the lost and rebellious souls who will have refused Jesus Christ and His superlative plan of eternal salvation.

The Great Tribulation is not a dispensation of time like that of the era of the Law and that of Grace. The Great Tribulation is a punishment for evil doers, those who hate or at least have neglected Christ's claims on their lives. This is all that it will produce. Vengeance! From Revelation chapter 6-18 the lost will be receiving the vengeance of Almighty God for their brazen, rebellion against God.

No purpose would be evident by Christ terrorizing His beloved people of God. Titus 2:13 is the blessed hope of all Christians as we look to Him for our final redemption, including our body. This is why those who 'sleep' will be raised to physical life. Living saints will also join Christ in the clouds and will receive a spiritual body like our Lord's eternal body. [I Thess. 4:17]

This is an interesting study. The same Greek root word that is used in I Thess. 4:17 for 'caught up' {harpazo} at the Second Advent/rapture was also used in Acts 8:39 when Phillip was 'caught away' from the site of the Ethiopian eunuch to another location called, Azotus. What I am saying is the rapture will be very similiar to the experience of Philip long, long ago.

I Thessalonians was written to give the church the comfort that they needed by hearing of the promise of the Second Advent of Jesus. Note that I Thess 1:10 indicates that our waiting for His coming from Heaven will ' . . . deliver us from the wrath to come.' By this the Apostle Paul means the terror of the Great Tribulation that will directly follow. I Thess. 5:9 emphasizes the same truth noted in the previous sentence.

Dr. Berrian

 

The Kingdom of God in the OT is the reign of the Messiah on earth over his people ethnic Israel. That was teh unquestioned teaching of the OT in the first century (and for several centuries after that). It is what the disciples expected and asked about in Acts 1. It is what the Jews expected and why they were disillusioned when their King was crucified and the kingdom was not set up.

The amill or post mill doctrine of the invisible kingdom was a new doctrine in the first century, if indeed it is what the apostles and Christ preached (which I believe they clearly did not).

 

Amen.

I believe "a great multitude, which no man could number" of Christians will be in the great tribulation (Revelation 7:9, 14) for the same reasons Christians have always gone through "much tribulation." "Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22). Note that the Greek word for "much" in Acts 14:22 is translated 59 times in the New Testament as "great." "And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience" (Romans 5:3). "That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation" (1 Thessalonians 3:3-4).

During the coming great tribulation the Lord will allow the enemy to try us to the limit, just as the enemy tried Job to the limit, not because he had done anything wrong, but to show that his love for God wasn't based on his material wealth, his family, or his health, but on the simple fact that God was his creator and sustainer, and had shown him great kindness (Job 2:10). Job did not sin when faced with every trial a man can face. He remained loyal to God unto the end.

I believe we are to look to the patient suffering of Job as our example: "Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy" (James 5:10-11). We Christians will need such patience in the coming tribulation: "Here is the patience and the faith of the saints" (Revelation 13:10). "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12-13).

We find the saved referred to throughout Revelation (6:11, 7:3, 7:14, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:1-4, 14:12-13, 15:2, 20:4).

Note that nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials (Revelation 15:1).

The vials contain God's wrath, yet not one of them is directed at Christians. I believe we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day (Daniel 12:12).

What is the blessed hope?

"In hope of eternal life"
"That blessed hope"
"The hope of eternal life"
(Titus 1:2, 2:13, 3:7)

How can the blessed hope be mutually exclusive with going through tribulation?

"We glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope" (Romans 5:3-4).

"Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation" (Romans 12:12).

"If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable" (1 Corinthians 15:19).

"For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake" (Philippians 1:29).

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (1 Peter 4:12-13).

Don't lose the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) when the rapture doesn't happen before the tribulation. Don't lose the hope even if you find yourself at the point of death in the great tribulation, for our hope for eternal life in Jesus Christ goes beyond any suffering in this life and any dread of death (Philippians 1:21-23, 1 Corinthians 15:19, John 12:25, Revelation 2:10, Hebrews 2:15).

The "glorious appearing" of Jesus (Titus 2:13) and the rapture will occur "after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), for Christ's coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

The Greek word for "brightness" in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 is the same word for "appearing" in Titus 2:13, and "coming" in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 is the same word for "coming" in 1 Thessalonians 4:15. There's no 3rd coming of Christ.

Note that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 says nothing regarding the timing of the rapture in relation to the tribulation, for tribulation and comfort aren't opposed to each other (2 Corinthians 1:3-7). Paul meant we're to comfort each other that we'll see our loved ones again, and that all of us -- no matter whether we live or die -- will be resurrected or raptured at Christ's coming.

"God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Here Paul refers to a form of God's wrath which is completely opposed to salvation, that is, those who obtain salvation can in no way be appointed to this form of God's wrath. Because there are many who obtain salvation who are in the tribulation, this form of wrath cannot be the tribulation.

The word "wrath" in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 is the Greek word orge, which is used in the NT to refer to the entire spectrum of the forms of God's wrath, from a single angry look by Jesus: "He had looked round about on them with anger (orge)" (Mark 3:5), to the eternal horror of the lake of fire: "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation (orge); and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever" (Revelation 14:10-11). If we who are believers do wrong, I believe Jesus can still look angrily at us without our losing our salvation: "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten" (Revelation 3:19); and I believe we believers can go through the entire tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:3, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 20:4) without losing our salvation, for nothing we experience on this earth, no suffering or death of any kind, can rob us of our eternal life in Christ (Romans 8:35-39) and our complete deliverance from the wrath of the lake of fire (Revelation 14:10), to which all unbelievers are appointed (John 3:36).

http://www.geocities.com/postrib

 

postrib,

Christians are removed from earth before the Great Tribulation. [I Thess. 4:17 & I Cor. 15:51-58.

The Christians that you speak about are only Christian because they missed the rapture. As a result these, remaining lost will have heard about what I am writing here and through other faithful pastors and witnesses. They will know if they are to escape Hell, they will have to pay with their lives. The antichrist's choice method of killing those who refuse the 'mark of the beast' [Rev. 13:15] will be to behead these converted sinners. [Rev. 20:4] Thus the Apostle John sees before hand, these 'great multitude of believers' [Rev. 7:9] who will enter glory above because they will have been faithful unto death. {Note also Rev. 7:13} Not just those who came out of 'tribulation' but the Great Tribulation. John uses the article (tays) indicating this was The Great Affliction or The Great Tribulation.

Dr. Berrian

 

Some people say that the Pretribulation view could not be true because it is a relatively new view of end times events. I contend that the view was held by the apostolic fathers but was not fully explored and systematized until the last couple of centuries.

It is foolish to say that it could not be true because it is a relatively new phenomenon. Why do I say this. The Apostle Paul believe in justification by faith [Romans 5:1] but this doctrine was lost during the Middle Ages when the Roman Catholic Church invented their many innovations to Christian theology through the teachings of their church. No one seems to have a problem accepting the fact that Martin Luther pick up on the truth that the Apostle Paul had preached and taught 2,000 years ago. We still believe in justification by faith even though it was inactive for hundreds of years.

Something to think about . . .

Respectfully,

Dr. Berrian

 

I am a pretrib beleiver and cannot see why anyone can see it in another way. Jesus comes on a cloud(this to me is not the coming of Jesus as our final judgement), and all who are Christians are brought UP to Him. To me, this is the beginning of a 7 year time of tribulation to all that were not saved. They still can be saved during this time, in my opinion, but it will be very difficult to do so. We cannot imagine how much more severe the pain and suffering will be to those left as compared to our every day sufferings since the death of Jesus. Jesus will , at the end of the 7th year, defeat all of the antichrist's followers and WE will reign with HIM on earth for a 1000 years. After this time, Jesus will come for the final judgement of ALL. The antichrist could already have been born as he will seem to be a normal man with great powers and promises of all things good for us, during the first 3 1/2 years BUT the next half, he will become the EVIL antichrist exposed to all. To agree with him, you would be safe till you died, but would be hell bound.

If the antichrist has been born and is a baby now, that would mean that we are at least 20 years from the Trib because the anitchrist is a grown man.

I know there are 4 basic views on this, but I cannot see where the others follow what Revalations implies.

This is another topic that I believe that no matter which way you believe, if you have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior, you are still Heaven bound.

God Bless............Alex

 

[1] Where in the Holy Bible can I find reference to a seven-year great tribulation?

[2] If the Holy Spirit is taken out of the world at the so-called "rapture of the church," how could anyone possibly say those left behind could be saved. Without the Holy Spirit there is no drawing, and without drawing there is no salvation [John 6:44].

[3] Where can I find in Scripture Jesus teaching two phases of His second coming. He taught extensively about His second coming, therefore it would make sense He would have talked about His two-phase coming. Where can I find reference to such a teaching?

By His grace, Christopher