LEFT BEHIND: OR DERILICTION OF DUTY ON THE HIGH SEAS.

Pastor Larry said:

Our ecclesiology is the result of our hermeneutic, just as their ecclesiology is the result of their hermeneutic.

In the case of the Dispensationalists, unfortunately, the circle is a vicious one.

On "church ages":

This is not dispensationalism. This is the view of a minority of dispensationalists who have been refuted numerous places by other dispensationalists.

Be that as it may, it is unfortunate that the view is held by some of the most influential and important Dispensationalists: Scofield (whose study Bible has been more influential in promoting Dispensational theology than any other source) and Pentecost (whose book Things to Come is likewise significant).

This is not true. Rve 3:10 very clearly talks of a great time of persecution, greater than what that church was currently experiencing.

Well, then, "consistent literalism" draws me to ask: Why is "tribulation" only mentioned with reference to two of the seven churches? Why is the church of Philadelphia promised protection from the "hour of trial" (3:10) but not the faithful in the other six churches? Especially, why not Smyrna, the only other church of the seven to receive nothing but praise? (Apparently for it the Great Tribulation lasts only 10 days.)

Plus, how is the church at Philadelphia to be protected from the Great Tribulation when the church itself no longer exists?

Rev 4:1 -- who knows exactly what you are talking about there.

Notwithstanding the irony of using "seems" and "clearly" side-by-side, Scofield is saying that the command to "Come up here" is a picture of the Rapture - a clear-cut case of allegorization.

 

OK, perhaps Pastor Larry has a technical point here but whatever it is called in the equating of "come up here" addressed to John with the rapture of the Church it IS a substitution of the plain meaning of John being transported into heaven with another meaning (the Church Rapture). which is the point I was trying to make in another post. The end result is the same though it is called by different names.
Personally I don't object to the method of using either "allegories of Christ" or "types of Christ" or "applications" of a text even to the attempt to use "come up here" as a kind of proof text of the rapture.
However I feel that all such attempts should be held up to the light of the whole counsel of God.
My own opinion FWIW is that the Darby-ite doctrine of the secret rapture of the church to heaven does not have enough solid scriptural evidence for a personal conviction, although I haven't totally dismissed it from my thinking.
Another point is that there are Christians of profound faith from every point of view on this matter and is good to see the lively but courteous debates (well, usually) here concerning the rapture.

HankD

[ July 11, 2002, 11:18 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

Note that Irenaeus of Lyons (b.130) says Revelation was written by John "towards the end of Domitian's reign" (Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 30, Paragraph 3), which ended in 96 AD, and was marked by persecution against the Christians flourishing throughout the Roman Empire, to the point where, as Eusebius says, "even those writers who were far from our religion did not hesitate to mention in their histories the persecution and the martyrdoms which took place during it" (Church History, Book 3, Chapter 18).

Note that Jesus addresses the 7 letters not to 7 future churches, but to 7 present churches "which are in Asia" (Revelation 1:11). I believe the 7 letters are "the things which are" in the passage which says: "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter" (Revelation 1:19). It's not until after the letters that Jesus says: "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1).

The experiences of individual believers may match the experience of one of the 7 1st century churches of Asia more than another. For example, many in the church have been tried in tribulation and been faithful unto death as Jesus said the 1st century Smyrnans would be (Revelation 2:10), and I believe many whom Jesus knew had "little strength" have been kept from temptation and trial as Jesus promised the 1st century Philadelphians they would be (Revelation 3:8-10), and they weren't raptured.

http://www.geocities.com/postrib

[ July 13, 2002, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: postrib ]

 

PreTrib, postTrib, midTrib or no rapture at all. If I believe preTrib and it happens postTrib - or not at all as I believe - is my salvation somehow in jeopardy?
If I believe in postTrib and it turns out to be preTrib? Do I not get to go?

 

I believe there will be a rapture. "Rapture" is from the Latin "rapiemur," which is how the old Latin translation of the Bible translated "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

Not necessarily. But I believe knowing the rapture's timing is important because Jesus said it's possible for those who believe to subsequently "be offended" by tribulation and "fall away":

"The same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended" (Matthew 13:20-21).

"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold" (Matthew 24:9-12).

"They, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation [peirasmos] fall away" (Luke 8:13).

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try [peirasmos] you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (1 Peter 4:12-13).

I'm not saying someone will necessarily fall away because they believe in a pre-trib rapture, or that someone necessarily won't fall away because they believe in a post-trib rapture, but I am saying that it is possible for true believers -- whether pre or post -- to fall away in tribulation.

And I believe Jesus told us everything we'd have to face beforehand for a good reason, so that we would be less likely to be offended and fall away: "Take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things" (Mark 13:23). "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" (Hosea 4:6). To be forewarned is to be forearmed: mentally, emotionally, and spiritually (and possibly even physically, if the Lord so leads).

http://www.geocities.com/postrib