Signs, Wonders, Visions, Tongues etc...

You guys just are not seeing the core issue, or else not reading carefully.

Trusting in miracles as regards to us is entirely irrelevent and entirely, ENTIRELY misses the point.

Context and need:

You and I don't NEED miracles, though God sometimes gives them. Our CONTEXT is the household of faith.

Miracles to those who have never heard of Christ are the main point. Their CONTEXT is utterly different than ours--utterly lost and having never heard of Christ, or having no access to the message of Christ in accurate form. They sometimes NEED divine attestation to authenticate the message of the gospel and its messenger. We have already received both.

Difference: like night and day--literally like night (those who are in darkness) and day (those who have been brought into the light), too.

Are we just so tunnel-visioned within our tradition, and so stuck viciously reacting, that we cannot see and make the CONTEXT and NEED distinctions?

Comments indicating the point to have been totally missed:

"I don't know for sure about claimed miracles."

"I'll take the Word of God, brother, over miracles anyday!"

I, I, I, me, me, me, us Baptists, us Baptists, us Baptists.

How self-centric can we be? The matter is not to anything that revolves around us.

The miracles at stake here--Biblically sanctioned miracles intended to give authentication to the message and its messenger when both go to a region where Christ is not known--have nothing whatsoever to do with us--our CONTEXT and NEED. The miracles are about giving divine authentication to the message and messenger of the gospel when goes to where Christ is not named, or so obscurred to possible ability unto acquiencense that He might as well have never been heard of (people have HEARD of Him but do not have access to an accurate presentation of the gospel and its messenger).

And as mentioned prior,

Hello? Anybody listening?

[ February 27, 2002, 08:57 PM: Message edited by: LP ]

 

A lot of what people are saying here is understandable. I don't think anyone can say that miracles of healing etc, don't happen in this age. After all, God can do ANYTHING!! I guess what I object to mostly are these people that see a miracle behind every bush. On the 700 club Robertson will say "There is someone out there that has a pain behind the left ear. Be healed." Sure enough, someone will call in and say I had one hand on my TV and the other on my ear and I WAS HEALED!

Some say we have the Word. So What!! Some attend "healing" services on Wednesday nights at 7:00 p.m. (Talking about putting God in a box). The preacher gets out there and "heals" people. I guess I will still maintain that these preachers need to go down to the local morgue and raise the dead, or go to the nearest hospice and heal people. Then maybe they would have some credibility. Not much, but at least some.

I say the miracle that happens every day is the miracle of being BORN AGAIN!!! Now, my friends, that IS A MIRACLE. A lasting one.
James2

[ February 28, 2002, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]

 

I agree,James2. God stills heals,obviously. Men who claim the gift of healing do not heal. If someone has the gift of healing,they would be healing at the hospital,like James2 said. That way it could be proven to be legitimate. In the bible when a healing took place it was immediate complete healing and it proved the realness of Christ,today we have God's Word since Jesus is not walking around on earth anymore. There is no reason to prove who Christ is today through miracles,we read the Word and we either believe it or not. We need not ask for anything else to prove who Christ is.

Everything is unverifiable by man's own experiences. God's Word is alive and true.

 

LP:

Why? "They sometimes NEED divine attestation to authenticate the message of the gospel and its messenger."

I can understand how this would be helpful, to be able to back up certain claims with a miracle, but why is this necessary? Why can't they be taught by the "messenger"? After all, isn't this where faith comes in?

You say "we have already received both". I don't know about you, but no one came to me teaching Christ and doing miracles. I was saved when I heart the Word of God preached and when I finally understood what it meant. I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Maybe you can clarify this statement.

[ February 28, 2002, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: Glory Bound ]

 

Here's what I mean.

We tend to think that someone is either evangelized or not evangelized. In one sense, that is true. But most missiologists don't quite agree. Cultures can be evangelized or not, and within that, there are levels:

Individual level:

--Those who are saved. NOTE: this is the CONTEXT of our NT churches.

Cultural level:

--Those who have ready access to an accurate presentation of the gospel in their native langauge. There are churches all around that they could access easily, and they have the political freedom to do so at any time. Most in the culture have a sort of knowledge about a certain man people call Jesus. He is all within their culture through icons, holidays, etc. NOTE: This is the CONTEXT of the U.S., as a whole.

--Those who have un-ready access to an accurate presentation of the gospel in their native langauge. There are a few churches planted in their region, but they could not access them readily. For example, it might take a day's travel to gain access to the gospel. These have relative political freedom to do so at any time. Most in the culture have little knowledge about a certain man people call Jesus, or are deeply enculturated into a religion that has dogmatized him to be someone very different.

--The same as above except the poeple live under political repression, and it can be dangerous to access the gospel and/or convert. Most in the culture have little knowledge about a certain man people call Jesus, or are deeply enculturated into a religion that has dogmatized him to be someone very different. NOTE: This is, generally, the Islamic world.

--Those who have a most un-ready access to an accurate presentation of the gospel. It is in their region, but not in a langauge they can speak. It would take them moving cross-culturally at significant upheavel to gain access to the gospel. Few have ever heard the name of Jesus.

----Those who have no access to an accurate presentation of the gospel in their. There are no churches planted in their region. Almost no matter what they do, thay could not hear the gospel. They have never so much as heard the name of Jesus.

The barriers inside of people can be and usually are very frequently different in each of these. And it is as the contexts move down toward the lowest level of the ones above where miracles are sometimes needed in order for the gospel to penetrate.

[ March 01, 2002, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: LP ]

 

Right. A well timed miracle can go a long way, such as in the case of Elijah at Mt. Carmel. But who is going to explain that the miracle is from our God, rather than a heathen idol or whatever? If someone is there to "interpret" the miracle, can't they also teach the Word in the absence of miracles or signs?

 

Luke 16:29-31--But Abraham said, They have Moses and the Prophets, let them hear them But he said , No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent. But he said to him, If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead. (NASB).
It of course, is the Holy Spirit who convicts one of their depraved, lost, hopeless state, not some miracle by a "healer." Some good points are being made by all of you, but I pretty much go along with scripture. The above passages cited are very powerful and seem to be a powerful argument about the effectiveness of miracles to bring one to the real miracle of regeneration.

LP: You mention the "barriers inside of people." This is one of the points here. It is not "barriers" in people that stop them from being regenerated by the power of the Thrice Holy God. It's that the people are DEAD to the gospel, hopeless, unable to come to Christ, not wanting to come to Christ, hating everything about God, no one being righteous. It's not a "barrier" it's a deadness. Like 1 cor 2:14 says, the things of God CANNOT be understood unless they are regenerated the Holy Spirit so they can "see" the things of God.
You could raise the dead and the lost, depraved sinners, would say, well, they weren't dead. This is a trick. Or, hey, look what man and his science can do now. What do you mean, a miracle? You see, they would not believe no matter what, unless the POWER OF GOD REGENERATED them so they COULD believe. The above cited passages make that VERY clear.
James2

[ March 01, 2002, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]

 

James2, I was thinking of the same passage in Luke 16. In fact, Jesus did all of the wonders mentioned, but yet the people turned against him.

 

Glory Bound:
And an AMEN to you!!!
James2

 

This passage actually shows my point excellently.

Jesus said in the passage that Abraham said "they have Moses and the Prophets, let them hear them." Who is the "they" being referred to. What is the CONTEXT of the "they"?

It is much like the last stage I referred to above of

The "they" were Israelites. "They have Moses and the Prophets," not unlike "There are churches all around that they could access easily, and they have the political freedom to do so at any time." Not a context where miracles are likely to occur to bring attestation to the message and messenger, including the Word.

You are right all are dead. Does that mean it is just as easy for a person from the Kechuwa tribe who has never heard the gospel to respond to it as it is for, say, an African-American in the U.S.? To accept your appliction of deadness we would have to accept this, which is ludicrous. People's spirits are all dead. But the level of darkness in their minds can differ. Plus, external-internal barriers: culture. etc..

[ March 01, 2002, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: LP ]

 

LP:
I'm headed to work, so don't have time to give your post a thoughtful response, but I will at some point later.
Let me just say, and most won't like this, that just maybe that person in that tribe, or in the deepest jungles of wherever are not meant to be part of the elect!! Just maybe!! Don't you think God, who is absolute sovereign, can save HIS ELECT wherever they are?

If one is of the ELECT God will put him in a place where THEY WILL come to HIM.

Like the bible says, God chose the Jews, and not all the others. Are you saying the "others" were saved, or were they left to perish? I believe the later.
James2

 

James2 says:

Don't you have the cart before the horse... The Elect will come to God? Don't you have your theology turned around? He will put them in a place where they will come to him? If they were on the planet pluto and they were of the Elect... God would find them not the reverse. All they have to hear is the living word speaking to their heart and mind. Read Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:8-13 and these are all Gods elect.
Only God can make a sheep!... Brother Glen

 

Brother Glenn:
That's what I get for rushing out the door to work. (I'm at work now, but have 15 minutes before I have to start).
Let's see, what on earth did I say?
uhmmmmmmm, ok, ok.
take 2:

Salvation is ALL FROM GOD. NOTHING FROM MAN. If a person were lost in space or stranded on Mars, if God is going to ELECT that person, that person would be ELECTED.
So far, Brother Glenn, I'm on article XX of the 1644 London Confession of Faith. So far, so good. Whoever wrote that statement agrees with me. (Just kidding. I'm really very humble).
P.S. Do I have to say, or do we agree, that the reason a person would come to Christ, is because God decided to elect that person, then REGENERATE him, then justify him by faith? Like Acts 13:48, I think, says, all those that were ORDAINED, BELIEVED. I just love that order don't you?

[ March 01, 2002, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: JAMES2 ]

 

I've done the same thing put brain in gear insert foot in mouth... I'll have to read the London Confessional of 1644 again! Just a little brush up is needed now and then! Thanks for reminding me... Brother Glen

 

Somebody was talking about miracles and here is two for you:
1. Waking up on the right side of the dirt... Again in the land of the living or
2. Going to be with the Lord in the land of the redeemed saints of God!... Brother Glen

 

First off, our Western individualism does not work with many, many tribes. They are communal through and through.

Second, it is amazing how this kind of hogwash about the elect still clings to the thinking of some. I would have thought William Carey would have put the death nail through this kind of thinking a long time ago.

Either way, John's vision certainly should put a death nail through it:

People "from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb." Who is to say certain tribes do not need divine attestation (external signs and wonders) to the gospel message and its messenger? In my view, it is either sheer arrogance, denominational tunnel-vision, or an underlying non-surface notion of let's react against the Charismatics that would not permit people to incorporate that into their theology. Either way, our job is to "GO."

[ March 01, 2002, 10:02 PM: Message edited by: LP ]

 

From memory, but generally accurate:

William Carey was wanting for years and years to start a Mission Society. The men of his Baptist context would not have it.

One day, after he arose in yet another of the yearly or so mettings to advocate for the creation of a Mission Society, one of the old hodgers, sick of hearing all this, interrupted, "Mr Carey: sit down! When it please God to save the heathen, He will do it without the aid of you or me."

I am glad Carey did not take that as the final word.

Also, William Carey was not a strict five point Calvinist, especially later in life.

I am amazed at how the type of thinking Carey countered still clings to people.

Several years ago, I was trying to get a small medical missions organaization off the ground (see http://www.lukeproject.org ). The idea was to increase the number of medical missionaries on the field by sending them out, supported, as medical missionaries-in-training to indigenous foreign medical schools.

Usually, Chrstian physicans cannot become missionaries, because of medical school debt: an average of $30,000 dollars per year just for tuition at a US medical school! But medical school cost like $2,000 per year in the developing world!

Even though I could show that

--About 55,000 people in the world's neediest nations die daily because of a lack of medical care, with the vast majority of these falling into a Christ-less eternity.

--That in the world's neediest nations there routinely averages as few as just 1 physician for every 150,000 persons (the U.S. averages 1 physician for every 340 persons).

--That in sub-Saharan Africa, for example, only 1 in 20 women needing a C-Section for obstructed labor can get their operation, and only 15% of people with hernias can get the operation they need during their entire lifetime, even if their hernia is strangulated.

--That there are 3.4 billion people—over half the world's population—who have never seen a trained health professional.

--That medical missions is an effective means of bringing the gospel to such people

--That only 2 out of 20 who expressed a call to career medical missions were ever able to actually go, because medical school debt prevented them: the borrower becomes the lender's slave.

Even though all that, I heard the following from the lips of a supposedly good Southern Baptist associate pastor of a 2,500 member SBC church:

"When God wants to increase the numner of medical missionaries on the field, he will do it without the aid of you or me."

The utterly scary part of this is that I had sat with this man in the church Fellowship Hall watching A Candle in the Darkness, which was a movie on Carey's life. The scene with him and the old hodgepodge mentioned earlier was clearly portrayed in an early scene.

Folks, sometimes we need to realize that we need to get OUT of our tradition for a while--it can cause such tunnel vision--and into a nother's, so we can come back and see the former again with much clearer eyes.