Rev. 20 and literal v. spiritual implications

Dear friends:

Here are some of the difficulties I see on both sides. If one is to view the 1,000 year reign as spiritual (that is fulfilled throughout the church age or time of the gentiles) here are some difficulties:

1. Satan is not only said to be sealed up to not deceive the nations, but later it says he is let out of his "prison." The whole idea of sealing up so that he can't deceive the nations and being in prison seems to clearly indicate a cesation of activity rather than a curtailing it. Satan, in fact, DOES deceive people in this present evil age. Can we really say that there aren't unbelievers who are deceived by him? True it's not possible to deceive the elect, but is he really fully unable to deceive anyone?

2. If the 1,000 years is spiritual, it seems odd that after Satan is loosed, that he then is cast into the lake of fire where the beat and false prophet ALREADY had been thrown. If he is thrown in at the end when the Lord returns, how this is not mentioned whatsoever in Rev. 19?

3. If the thousand years is spiritual and to be compared with Rev. 12 as a "recapitulation" then there are some distinct differences (cast from heaven to earth, but in ch.20 from earth to the abyss; his time in ch. 12 is short, but the time in Rev. 20 is 1,000 years, in rev. 12 he goes out to deceive, but in 20 he can't). These two chapters don't seem to recapitulate the same things?

4. If the 1,000 years is spiritual, how is it that the Christ himself speaks of the coming Kingdom and those being small here being great in His Kingdom. We are told to pray that his kingdom come. The Lord says he will give them thrones to judge on.

There is also the issue of hte resurrections, which ought to be discussed, but I'll leave that.

Now, for the problems if it is literal.

1. If the 1,000 years are literal, one must ask themselves how it is that God rules with an iron scepter in a place where he just smashed down all rebellion and kills "all the rest" in ch.19. Also, when Satan is released and gathers an army from the four corners of the earth in the Kingdom that the Lord has established. If this is the perfect Kingdom prophecied by teh OT prophets, how is it that the perfection must stop. IT begs the question of the purpose for binding Satan for 1,000 years and then letting him lose after he'd already thrown the beast hte prophet into the lake of fire.

2. If the 1,000 years are literal, it would seem that this is the ONLY time this amount of time is given. In this book of many types and symbols of literal events, it seems odd to say that the chain is not literal, the dragon or serpent isn't literally those things, the abyss isn't literally a prison with bars the devil can't get through, but ONLY the 1,000 years are literal.

I might be able to think of more, but this is good to finally get some of these things out of my head and onto print.

IN Christ,
Michael

Several elements in the passage seem to demand a nonliteral interpretation. First, the Devil, a spiritual being, is depicted as being bound by a great chain (v. 1), whereas one would think of spiritual beings as not being susceptible to confinement by physical restraints. A second dictator of the symbolism in the passage is the reference to Satan (as elsewhere in the book) as both a dragon and a serpent (v. 2), neither of which is any more a literal description of this spiritual being than is "a Lamb...having seven horns and seven eyes" (cf. 5:6), a literal description of the man Jesus Christ. We are further dissuaded from a literal interpretation of the passage by the fact that many of its features, e.g., a thousand years (v. 2), a pit, and a seal (v. 3) are used elsewhere in Scripture in a symbolic manner.

The nature of the binding itself is not absolute, so as to preclude every activity of Satan. It is specifically limited in the passage to the devil's power to deceive the nations (v. 3) for the duration of the period. That Jesus came in some sense to bound Satan during His ministry is affirmed by Christ Himself. Jesus describes His ministry of deliverance to the demon-possessed as analogous to the plundering of a strong man's house by an invader (Matt. 12:29). Here the strong man is clearly Satan and the intruder is Christ. Jesus explains parabolically that a necessary first step was to bind the strong man, who otherwise would not allow his house to be pillaged. The implication is that Jesus' casting out of demons provides proof that He had already "bound" Satan. This binding of Satan, however, does not involve a literal incarceration preventing all movement. In the analogy, "binding" refers only to rendering his opponent incapable of resistance. The parallel account in Luke replaces the metaphor of binding the strong man with that of stripping the strong man of all his armor and weapons (Luke 11:22). Thus, according to Christ's own teaching, the imagery of "binding Satan" conveys the fact that Satan has been rendered incapable of successfully resisting the forward advance of God's kingdom. Additional passages in the New Testament use similar images to describe the decisive victory of Christ over His foes. Colossians 2:15 exults the in the fact that Christ "disarmed principalities and powers" through the cross, and Hebrews 2:14 states that Jesus endured death so that He might thereby "destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil."

The meaning of this binding of Satan, then, is that Christ, ast His first advent, brought about a conclusive victory, leaving Satan impotent to prevent the success of God's kingdom. The imagery of this passage is simply a more vivid dramatization of this conept, in keeping with the apocalyptic style of the book itself.

(from "Revelation: Four Views")

By His grace, Christopher

[ March 21, 2002, 11:50 PM: Message edited by: Christopher ]

The thousand years is the DAY OF THE CROSS

Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years IN THY SIGHT [are but] as YESTERDAY WHEN IT HAS PAST, and [as] a WATCH IN THE NIGHT.

First off TO DAY is the day of salvation because
of what Christ accomplished (((YESTERDAY))) and it was He who told His disciples to WATCH ((IN THE NIGHT))) He was betrayed thus the ((Evening Obligation)) of Daniel.

Yesterday HAS PAST(Thousand years as a DAY) and the Cross IS THAT DAY is as a WATCH in the Night
Here are some verses...

2Peter3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and A THOUSAND YEARS AS ONE DAY.

Ecc6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years (((twice told))), yet hath HE seen no good: do not all go to one place? God doubles to "establish as seen in the dream given to pharoah"

Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a CERTAIN DAY, saying in David, TO DAY, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same YESTERDAY (the Cross), AND (((TO DAY))), and FOR EVER.

I see what yesterday is and what Paul called To day seen where he was but I need further understanding on for ever (I know what it means but I can't place it yet properly using Gods words yet.

Christ said as Moses lifted up the Serpent in the wilderness that He also be lifted up. On The cross Christ was carrying the sins of the world in fact it says HE BECAME SIN. Perfect until iniquity was found in Him (Ours) Gods Sword is seen awakened against His shepherd in Zechariah seen other places as His sword bathed in blood for the wages of sin was death and Christ recieved payment that day for us.

The Serpent was loosed once again and Paul knew this. The lie to decieve the Church is as the same lie in the garden of God, if you understand what that lie is. This powerful delusion comes from God seen in kings as God puts a lying spirit into the mouths of the prophets. Truly both head and tail are cut off but there are those speaking this lie as seen in Pauls day messengers of "righteousness" a different Jesus another gospel and the churches confusion over what this "particular" thing is well noted before its time in rooted in the genesis story and pictured in other places as well.

As strange as the interpretation sounds they are rooted in the old testament and Christ needed to fulfill them. The imgaery conceals it alot because I used to think each day of Gods takes a thousand years.

But heres a thousand years seen here as well (God speaks of it as TWICE TOLD)

1004bc when the child was born to David, till 4bc when Jesus is reborn at Bethlehem. God promised to raise up one from His own bowels in a similitude this points to christ here.

Now the Generations of Adam were 930 years +70 years desolate Jerusalem= 1000 years Christ LOOK you house is left to you desolate.

These are some things I'm still looking at closely on how they fit together with other scriptures linking to Jesus Christ but I definately need to think on these things but I hope I have helped you perhaps by laying out some ideas to consider.

In Him Kim

#1-3 Here is a vision, showing by a figure the restraints laid on Satan himself. Christ, with Almighty power, will keep the devil from deceiving mankind as he has hitherto done. He never wants power and instruments to break the power of Satan. Christ shuts by his power, and seals by his authority. The church shall
have a time of peace and prosperity, but all her trials are not yet over.

#4-6 Here is an account of the reign of the saints, for the same space of time as Satan is bound. Those who suffer with Christ, shall reign with him in his spiritual and heavenly kingdom, in
conformity to him in his wisdom, righteousness, and holiness:
this is called the first resurrection, with which none but those who serve Christ, and suffer for him, shall be favoured. The happiness of these servants of God is declared. None can be blessed but those that are holy; and all that are holy shall be blessed. We know something thing of what the first death is, and it is very awful; but we know not what this second death is. It must be much more dreadful; it is the death of the soul, eternal separation from God. May we never know what it is: those who have been made partakers of a spiritual resurrection, are saved from the power of the second death. We may expect that a
thousand years will follow the destruction of the antichristian, idolatrous, persecuting powers, during which pure Christianity, in doctrine, worship, and holiness, will be made known over all
the earth. By the all-powerful working of the Holy Spirit, fallen man will be new-created; and faith and holiness will as certainly prevail, as unbelief and unholiness now do. We may easily perceive what a variety of dreadful pains, iseases, and other calamities would cease, if all men were true and consistent Christians. All the evils of public and private contests would be ended, and happiness of every kind largely
increased. Every man would try to lighten suffering, instead of adding to the sorrows around him. It is our duty to pray for the
promised glorious days, and to do every thing in our public and private stations which can prepare for them.
#7-10 While this world lasts, Satan's power in it will not be wholly destroyed, though it may be limited and lessened. No sooner is Satan let loose, than he again begins deceiving the
nations, and stirring them up to make war with the saints and servants of God. It would be well if the servants and ministers of Christ were as active and persevering in doing good, as his
enemies in doing mischief. God will fight this last and decisive battle for his people, that the victory may be complete, and the glory be to himself.

#11-15 After the events just foretold, the end will speedily come; and there is no mention of any thing else, before the appearing of Christ to judge the world. This will be the great day: the Judge, the Lord Jesus Christ, will then put on majesty and terror. The persons to be judged are the dead, small and great; young and old, low and high, poor and rich. None are so mean, but they have some talents to account for; and none so
great, as to avoid having to account for them. Not only those alive at the coming of Christ, but all the dead. There is a book of remembrance both for good and bad: and the book of the sinner's conscience, though formerly secret, will then be
opened. Every man will recollect all his past actions, though he had long forgotten many of them. Another book shall be opened, the book of the Scriptures, the rule of life; it represents the Lord's knowledge of his people, and his declaring their repentance, faith, and good works; showing the blessings of the new covenant. By their works men shall be justified or condemned; he will try their principles by their practices.
Those justified and acquitted by the gospel, shall be justified and acquitted by the Judge, and shall enter into eternal life, having nothing more to fear from death, or hell, or wicked men;
for these are all destroyed together. This is the second death; it is the final separation of sinners from God. Let it be our great concern to see whether our Bibles justify or condemn us
now; for Christ will judge the secrets of all men according to the gospel. Who shall dwell with devouring flames?

(From Matthew Henry's Commentary)

Originally posted by Michael D. Edwards:
Now, for the problems if it is literal.

1. If the 1,000 years are literal, one must ask themselves how it is that God rules with an iron scepter in a place where he just smashed down all rebellion and kills "all the rest" in ch.19.

Click to expand...

Not sure why this is a problem. Ruling with an iron rule talks of his authority. How is that inconsistent with a kingdom in which all the enemies have been destroyed?

Also, when Satan is released and gathers an army from the four corners of the earth in the Kingdom that the Lord has established. If this is the perfect Kingdom prophecied by teh OT prophets, how is it that the perfection must stop. IT begs the question of the purpose for binding Satan for 1,000 years and then letting him lose after he'd already thrown the beast hte prophet into the lake of fire.

Click to expand...

The Kingdom, although intitially populated by all righteous people (since all the unsaved have been destroyed), will see the birth of children through normal means thus bringing depraved people into the world. Those who are openly rebellious will be cut off with the rod of iron you mention above. At the end, when Satan is released he will gain his army through deceit and then rise up one more time to be destroyed. I don't think the kingdom in the OT was described as perfect, per se. That will exist in the eternal state. As for why the false prophet and beast are thrown into the lake of fire at one point and Satan at another, I don't know. God indicates that it is such and that is enough for me.

2. If the 1,000 years are literal, it would seem that this is the ONLY time this amount of time is given. In this book of many types and symbols of literal events, it seems odd to say that the chain is not literal, the dragon or serpent isn't literally those things, the abyss isn't literally a prison with bars the devil can't get through, but ONLY the 1,000 years are literal.

Click to expand...

This is teh only place this amount of time is given because this is the only place it is relevant. There is much in the passage that is literal. You are simply focusing on what you think is not literal. The binding is a literal binding, the resurrection is a literla resurrection, the souls, marks, Satan, Christ, etc. are all literal. In fact, there is much more literal in the passage than there is figurative is you start adding up.

I think the bigger question is this: Why not take it literally? The only answer I can come up with is becuase it contradicts a system. It cannot be a literal 1000 years because the system does not have a place for it. Therefore, it must mean something else. I see no valid scriptural reason why it can't be 1000 years.

Christopher, Not sure what pages you are quoting from but if you have the same book I do (edited by Marvin Pate), then all those objections you post are answered with what, to me anyway, make far better sense of the text. I think the view you espouse grows out the position held rather than out of the text. I think that is exactly backwards of what should be. I would make the same comments with what Henry says. This issue of binding of Satan, the dragon as he is called or the Accuser (as his Hebrew name "Satan" means), simply cannot be so glibly treated. There is nothing to this point in human history that can correspond to a binding of Satan in the manner described here. To say it refers to a limiting of his power clearly does not correspond to what the text says.

[ March 22, 2002, 09:40 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

The following is a link to an excellent article regarding the recapitulation vs. progressive discussion:
Rev. 20

This is the text:

Revelation 20:1-10
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The 1,000 year reign is definitely literal.

1. The 1,000 year period is mentioned 6 times not just 1 (as some have said).
2. Although Satan is a spiritual being, he is a physical (just not earthly) being for he cannot be everywhere as God can who is truly Spirit.
3. The binding of Satan is absolute and not just restricted (this does not fulfill what Jesus said in Matthew 12).
4. If Jesus is the one who bound Satan (Mt.12), then Jesus must be the angel mentioned in verse 1.
5. The book itself is to be viewed as chronological (Rev.1:19 - what you see, what is now, and what will be hereafter).
6. This is the normal interpretation. It would just cause the amills to be consistent.
7. The text mentions thrones with those sitting having judgment committed to them (this is a fulfillment of what Jesus told His disciples about judging the twelve tribes). What amill wants to say he is presently on a throne judging anyone?
8. The text mentions specific parts of the body (wrist, forehead, head). What would the symbolism be for that?
9. The book uses several time periods in the literal sense (42 months; time, times, and 1/2 a time = 3 1/2 years; 10 days). Why wouldn't the 1,000 years be literal also.
10. Revelation 5:10 says, "And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth." This is clearly a view of heaven, yet from heaven it is said they will reign on the earth. This does not fit the amills position.

This is a short list and by no means exhaustive.

Star, keep posting. I am continually amused.

Larry,

Do you not believe the Lord Jesus bound Satan at His first coming?

[Matt. 12:29] Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

By His grace, Christopher †

Originally posted by Christopher:
Do you not believe the Lord Jesus bound Satan at His first coming?

Click to expand...

I think if Satan is currently bound, the he would not be walking around as a roaring lion (1 Peter 5:7), disguising himself as an angel of light (1 Cor 11:14), sending messengers to buffet people (2 Cor 12:9), etc. There are simply too many clear descriptions of the work of Satan in this age. We must either say that the binding was not very effective or that it refers to something else. Clearly, the second option is the one that is best, IMO.

Pastor Larry,

A lot of excellent truth in just three sentences.

I agree that Satan will be bound at the close of the Great Tribulation. He is apparently unfettered here and now and very busy.

Dr. Berrian

PreachtheWord, I have questions or comments on a few of your statements.

Originally posted by PreachtheWord:
2. Although Satan is a spiritual being, he is a physical (just not earthly) being for he cannot be everywhere as God can who is truly Spirit.

Click to expand...

What scriptures teach that Satan is physical? That he may be bound in some way by time and space does not necessarily translate into his being physical.

5. The book itself is to be viewed as chronological (Rev.1:19 - what you see, what is now, and what will be hereafter).

Click to expand...

If the book is totally chronological, we would have to say that the casting of Satan out of heaven and the birth of Christ (chap. 12) takes place after some future events (some place the rapture in 4:1).

6. This is the normal interpretation. It would just cause the amills to be consistent.

Click to expand...

Why is interpreting a number literally in a highly symbolic book the normal interpretation?

9. The book uses several time periods in the literal sense (42 months; time, times, and 1/2 a time = 3 1/2 years; 10 days). Why wouldn't the 1,000 years be literal also.

Click to expand...

Many people do not interpret these time periods literally either. So for them to make the 1000 years literal would be inconsistent.

10. Revelation 5:10 says, "And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth." This is clearly a view of heaven, yet from heaven it is said they will reign on the earth. This does not fit the amills position.

Click to expand...

Does any part of this context of Rev. 20:1-6 place the scene on earth?

One thought I've had regarding Satan being bound. Rev 20 mentions he is bound in the bottomless pit, by the angel with the key to the bottomless pit, and then released at the end of the 1000 years. In Revelation 9, we also see the key used to open the bottomless pit, releasing the locusts (or Hal Lindsey's helicopters ). Verse 11 says the locusts had a king named Abaddon/Appolyon. Is this Satan? Is this opening of the bottomless pit and the releasing of the locusts and their king the same even as the releasing of Satan in Rev 20:7? If amill is correct, it would seem so. I realize this is not an argument for amill, but I think it is interesting to consider.

Larry and Ray,

I don't think I asked what you thought, but if you believed the Lord Jesus when He Himself said Satan was bound.

[Matt. 12:28] But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

[29] Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

The Lord Jesus established the kingdom of God at His first coming and bound Satan so he could not deceive the nations any longer in order that the gospel might be preached to all the nations [Matt. 28:19]

We must either say that the binding was not very effective or that it refers to something else. Clearly, the second option is the one that is best, IMO. --Larry

Click to expand...

In other words, the binding of Satan does not fit your idea about the nature of the binding, therefore, it must mean something else.

Why not take your own advice?

The only answer I can come up with is becuase it contradicts a system. It cannot be a literal 1000 years because the system does not have a place for it. Therefore, it must mean something else. --Larry

Click to expand...

By His grace, Christopher †

Wow:

Lots of good feedback. I haven't really seen anything come out here that I hadn't considered yet or studied through. I've got lots of studying and praying to do. One of my preachers taht I love to read and study is John Piper. Ironically, he has not preached from Rev. 20. Now I know why (I think...)!!!!

In Christ
Michael

Hey Michael,

I might as well take my whack at your original questions.

> 1. ...Satan, in fact, DOES deceive people in this present evil age. Can we really say that there aren't unbelievers who are deceived by him?

Satan has certainly able to work on individuals since Christ was crucified (Acts 5:3, 1 Cor 7:5, 1 Thess 2:18, etc). But the typical amill take on this binding is that it is restricting only in the sense of what is mentioned in the verse: deception of nations.

As for the "prison", there is an interesting perspective that may be possible. The Greek word, although usually referring to a literal prison, can also mean "watch" (as a noun), as in Luke 2:8 "And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night." and Luke 12:38 "And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find [them] so, blessed are those servants." It's the same word in the Greek, which *may* indicate that Satan's "prison" may in fact only mean he is under "watch" so that he doesn't deceive the nations.

> 2. If the 1,000 years is spiritual, it seems odd that after Satan is loosed, that he then is cast into the lake of fire where the beat and false prophet ALREADY had been thrown. If he is thrown in at the end when the Lord returns, how this is not mentioned whatsoever in Rev. 19?

The verse that talks about him being thrown in does not say how long the beast and false prophet were there, only that they were there. If Satan is thrown in immediately after them, the verse would still be true. As for not being mentioned in chap 19, that could be attributed to the fact that Satan was not in focus in that passage, but discussion of him was delayed until chap 20. Like many other passages, the lack of mention of something does not necessarily mean it was not part of the bigger picture. It's really just an argument of silence.

> 3. If the thousand years is spiritual and to be compared with Rev. 12 as a "recapitulation" then there are some distinct differences (cast from heaven to earth, but in ch.20 from earth to the abyss; his time in ch. 12 is short, but the time in Rev. 20 is 1,000 years, in rev. 12 he goes out to deceive, but in 20 he can't). These two chapters don't seem to recapitulate the same things?

This could be explained by chap 12 referring to him being thrown out of heaven before Christ, and only having a "short time" until the crucifixion. In other words, two events that happen relatively close together.

> 4. If the 1,000 years is spiritual, how is it that the Christ himself speaks of the coming Kingdom and those being small here being great in His Kingdom. We are told to pray that his kingdom come. The Lord says he will give them thrones to judge on.

Because although the kingdom exists now, and although it will reach it's culmination at Christ's return, the kingdom is not restricted to the 1000 years, even in the premill view. His kingdom is *eternal* (2 Pet 1:11). Even if amill is correct, we still await the fully realized eternal kingdom.

As I mentioned to you earlier, I'm not totally amill but I do see certain strengths in it, and explanations that make sense.

Brian

[ March 22, 2002, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: BrianT ]

The nature of the binding itself is not absolute, so as to preclude every activity of Satan. It is specifically limited in the passage to the devil's power to deceive the nations (v. 3) for the duration of the period. That Jesus came in some sense to bound Satan during His ministry is affirmed by Christ Himself. Jesus describes His ministry of deliverance to the demon-possessed as analogous to the plundering of a strong man's house by an invader (Matt. 12:29). Here the strong man is clearly Satan and the intruder is Christ. Jesus explains parabolically that a necessary first step was to bind the strong man, who otherwise would not allow his house to be pillaged. The implication is that Jesus' casting out of demons provides proof that He had already "bound" Satan. This binding of Satan, however, does not involve a literal incarceration preventing all movement. In the analogy, "binding" refers only to rendering his opponent incapable of resistance. The parallel account in Luke replaces the metaphor of binding the strong man with that of stripping the strong man of all his armor and weapons (Luke 11:22). Thus, according to Christ's own teaching, the imagery of "binding Satan" conveys the fact that Satan has been rendered incapable of successfully resisting the forward advance of God's kingdom.

Click to expand...

This assumes that the nations are no longer "deceived" by Satan just becaus the Gospel has been opened to them. While [most] every nation may have people preaching and receiving the Gospel, it is a far stretch to say the nations aren't deceived. Basically, it is the same way it has always been. A few receive the Gospel while the rest of the "world" [i.e., the "nations"] go on in unbelief and often hostility to the Gospel. Just look a those who persecute Christians. Even this nation as well as the rest of the West where Christianity flourished are largely deceived.
The passage is definitely describing a suspension of this state of the world, where righteousness will reign, not by the Church taking over the world for Christ, but by Him coming down and taking it for Himself. Now the nations are no longer deceived, as we see prophecied in many OT passages. But then Satan is loosed, and the nations are "once again" deceived, briefly. This is the most clear reading of the passage.

Brian:

In looking at your comments regarding Rev. 12 as possibly being before the crucifixion, I'd wonder what the typical amil would say regarding the 1260 days of protection for her people?

Thanks
Michael

Originally posted by Michael D. Edwards:
Brian:

In looking at your comments regarding Rev. 12 as possibly being before the crucifixion, I'd wonder what the typical amil would say regarding the 1260 days of protection for her people?

Click to expand...

I don't know the typical amill response here. I also don't understand the typical premill response here, because the text makes it sound like immediately after Christ ascends, the woman flees into the wilderness for the 1260 days. I guess I don't understand the passage at all.

Brian

Perhaps if you look at true Christians as the woman ("spiritual Israel"/"remnant of her seed"--v.17), then it could picture true Christians fading to relative obscurity as the Church became a big corrupt institution (which would eventually persecute those who rejected the corrupt doctrines and practices).
Plus, as for the fleeing occuring right after the ascension, note that this (v.6) is repeated in v.14, after several other events (such as the fall of Satan to the Earth), and this makes it possible to not be immediate.

The woman is ethnic Israel. Believers did not bring forth the Messiah but vice versa. Israel brought forth the Messiah (Rom.9:1-6).