Petition For The Pledge "Under God" You Can Make a Difference

I think it is irrelevant issue and wonder if Falwell is trying to re energize the Religious Right with this issue. The USA is not a Christian nation and never has been and I think we as believers should spend more preaching and proclaiming the Triune God of the Bible rather than defend a phrase of an American generic god that can be any god people want Him to be.

[ June 30, 2002, 10:55 PM: Message edited by: Kiffin ]

 

Teddy Roosevelt???

Time to learn some history!

[ June 30, 2002, 11:45 PM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]

 

Well, I heartily disagree with you. It is just because Christians sat on their hands for so many years and left the "dirty politics" to others that this country has ended up in the shape it is presently in! Starting with taking prayer out of schools. Next came abortion, the right to dispose of, murder, over 40 MILLION and counting unborn babies! SHAME ON CHRISTIAN AMERICA for not being involved!

And I tell you, our forefathers didn't sit on their hands and let others take the reigns of leadership and making policies and court rulings nor the Constitution or Bill of Rights in this Great Land! No siree! Our forefathers, Christian men for the most part, came here, gave up all they had, shed their precious drops of blood on the ground of this Land, lost all, homes, family, sons, daughters, limb, and life, for this Nation Under God and our Freedom! Your freedom to spout the junk you spouted!

America's fathers, sons, put it ALL on the line for your liberty and your freedom of speech to make absurd statements you have made. MY forefathers bled and died for this Great Land. In every war, the blood of Americans have been shed for freedom and liberty.

Tell those troops over there in Afghanistan right now that you think this Country isn't worth dying for and Christians should not be involved in politics or functions of civil government! Tell that to those hallowed names written on the Cold Black Wall in Washington DC. Tell that to those thousands of white crosses over there on a bluff in Normandy. Tell that to those poor souls who jumped out of the burning WTC towers plunging to their deaths!

Boy, you have sure stirred up a bee in my bonnet, sir!

Backslidden though it is, Spewed out of Almighty God's mouth, I'm sure, for the murder of our unborn, for the filth and homosexuality and atheism bulging at every corner of our Nation, and Masonic symbols such as an obelisk (Wash. Monument), all seeing eye, RA, and great pyramid, Illuminati, Free Masons, and the rest it, God has loved this country and blessed this country for generations.

The ONLY two reasons we have not received God's full judgment on America is because we have stood by Israel (the apple of His eye) and because it is America who, throughout the decades and continuing today, has spread the Gospel to literally Every Nation sending missionaries along with food and medicine for the oppressed! And for a handful of Christian Americans who cherish their heritage and will fight to the death for Christian values and truth!

To say Americans should not be involved in politics is a shirk of responsibility of citizenship. "To whom much is given, MUCH IS REQUIRED!"

Even the Apostle Paul addressed leaders in Authority as he traveled. We are to be the salt of this earth and of this Nation! We were founded under God, though we don't live under God anymore, but that is the fruit of Christian apathy in politics...Christians with attitudes like yours, for one.

Our forefathers would be ashamed. And Sir, I do believe God will hold us accountable as a Nation one day when the Nations are judged. If it weren't for a few Christians, like me, being involved in dirty politics, crying out, writing letters, phoning, emailing, signing petitions, the country would have already gone to hell in a handbasket & the atheists & others would have COMPLETELY taken over! Wake Up! QUIT BEING SO HEAVENLY MINDED YOU'RE NO EARTHLY GOOD! We are told to "OCCUPY UNTIL HE COMES!"

[ July 01, 2002, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: EagleLives911 ]

 

Teddy Roosevelt???

Time to learn some history!</font>[/QUOTE]Uh, uh, uh, is that all you've got to add to this subject? Don't you have anything to say about people just sitting back and saying, "Well, it's not my responsibility." Thank God the pilgrims didn't say that. They went to the Bible for everything that happened in their life, including the laws of the land that were inacted. I don't see how in the world anyone can say that this never was a Christian nation when it started out exactly as that. If there was a storm that had hailstones and tornadoes, the pilgrims went to the Bible to see what it said about it. If there was a murder, they went to the Bible. By the way, I am correct, you, my friend, are the one that needs to pull out the history book.

Eaglelives911...Very well said.

 

I think it's important on this July 4 to remember we are all Americans whatever we believe or don't believe, and stand together and be proud of our country. Whether some of us are lucky enough to know God's love, or whether some of us are still lost, we all live in the greatest country in the world. Happy Independence Day to everyone.

 

Unfortunately, this pledge controversy is only the beginning of the battle between atheists (and those who are sympathetic to them as an "oppressed" minority) and Bible-believing Christians. Our opponents won't be satisfied until all references to God are forbidden in public. An atheists I saw on a talk show last night essentially defined freedom of religion as a "private" thing, something reserved for home and church. Religion should be left out of the marketplace of ideas. But freedom of religion is a lot more than something we are allowed to observe in private; it is the liberty to openly espouse our views in all forums. I never thought that the persecution of believers predicted in Scripture would take place in my lifetime. Now I'm not so sure.

That being said: Happy Independence Day to all!

 

EagleLives

writes "Our forefathers, Christian men for the most part "

Come on Eagle look at History -- the truth --not the stories you hear!

The men who lead the United States in its revolution against England, who wrote the Declaration of Independence and put together the Constitution were not Christians by any stretch of the imagination.

Why do some Christians imagine these men are Christians? Besides a desperate desire that it should be so, in a selective examination of their writings, one can discover positive statements about God and/or Christianity.

However, merely believing in God does not make a person a Christian. The Bible says that "the fool says in his heart, there is no God." Our founding fathers were not fools. But the Bible also says "You say you believe in God. Good. The demons also believe and tremble."

Merely believing in God is insufficient evidence for demonstrating either Christian principles or that a person is a Christian.

Perhaps, to start, it might be beneficial to remind ourselves of what a Christian might be: it is a person who has acknowledged his or her sinfulness, responded in faith to the person of Jesus Christ as the only one who can redeem him, and by so doing been given the Holy Spirit.

The early church summarized the Christian message in six points:
1. Jesus came from God.
2. You killed him.
3. He rose again on the third day.
4. He sent the Holy Spirit
5. Repent and be baptized.
6. He's coming back.

An individual who would not acknowledge this much of the Christian message could not, by any stretch of the imagination, be called a Christian. The founding fathers of this country did not acknowledge this message. In fact, they denied it.

Founders of the American Revolution

Thomas Jefferson created his own version of the gospels; he was uncomfortable with any reference to miracles, so with two copies of the New Testament, he cut and pasted them together, excising all references to miracles, from turning water to wine, to the resurrection.

There has certainly never been a shortage of boldness in the history of biblical scholarship during the past two centuries, but for sheer audacity Thomas Jefferson's two redactions of the Gospels stand out even in that company. It is still a bit overwhelming to contemplate the sangfroid exhibited by the third president of the United States as, razor in hand, he sat editing the Gospels during February 1804, on (as he himself says) "2. or 3. nights only at Washington, after getting thro' the evening task of reading the letters and papers of the day." He was apparently quite sure that he could tell what was genuine and what was not in the transmitted text of the New Testament...(Thomas Jefferson. The Jefferson Bible; Jefferson and his Contemporaries, an afterward by Jaroslav Pelikan, Boston: Beacon Press, 1989, p. 149.

In his Notes on Virginia, Jefferson wrote:

The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury to my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. (Dumas Malon, Jefferson The President: First Term 1801-1805. Boston: Little Brown and Company, 1970, p. 191)

Thomas Paine was a pamphleteer whose manifestoes encouraged the faltering spirits of the country and aided materially in winning the War of Independence. But he was a Deist:

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church. (Richard Emery Roberts, ed. "Excerpts from The Age of Reason". Selected Writings of Thomas Paine. New York: Everbody's Vacation Publishing Co., 1945, p. 362)

Regarding the New Testament, he wrote that:

I hold [it] to be fabulous and have shown [it] to be false...(Roberts, p. 375)

About the afterlife, he wrote:

I do not believe because a man and a woman make a child that it imposes on the Creator the unavoidable obligation of keeping the being so made in eternal existance hereafter. It is in His power to do so, or not to do so, and it is not in my power to decide which He will do. (Roberts, p. 375)

John Adams, the second U.S. President rejected the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and became a Unitarian. It was during Adams' presidency that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship with Tripoli, which states in Article XI that:

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arrising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. (Charles I. Bevans, ed. Treaties and Other International Agreements of the United States of America 1776-1949. Vol. 11: Philippines-United Arab Republic. Washington D.C.: Department of State Publications, 1974, p. 1072).

This treaty with the Islamic state of Tripoli had been written and concluded by Joel Barlow during Washington's Administration. The U.S. Senate ratified the treaty on June 7, 1797; President Adams signed it on June 10, 1797 and it was first published in the Session Laws of the Fifth Congress, first session in 1797. Quite clearly, then, at this very early stage of the American Republic, the U.S. government did not consider the United States a Christian nation.

Benjamin Franklin, the delegate to the Continental Congress and the Constitutional Convention. He has frequently been used as a source for positive "God" talk. It is often noted that Franklin made a motion at the Constitutional convention that they should bring in a clergyman to pray for their deliberations:

In this situation of this Assembly, groping as it were in the dark to find political truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when present to us, how has it happened, Sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of lights to illuminate our understandings?....I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth - that God governs in the affairs of men. (Catherine Drinker Bowen. Miracle at Phaladelphia: The Story of the Constitutional Convention, May to September 1787. New York: Book-of-the-Month Club, 1966, pp. 125-126)

It is rarely noted that Franklin presented his motion after "four or five weeks" of deliberation, during which they had never once opened in prayer. More significantly, it is never mentioned that Franklin's motion was voted down! Fine Christians, these founding fathers. Furthermore, the context is usually ignored, too. He made the motion during an especially trying week of serious disagreement, when the convention was in danger of breaking up. Cathrine Drinker Bowen comments:

Yet whether the Doctor had spoken from policy or from faith, his suggestion had been salutary, calling an assembly of doubting minds to a realization that destiny herself sat as guest and witness in this room. Franklin had made solemn reminder that a republic of thirteen united states - venture novel and daring - could not be achieved without mutual sacrifice and a summoning up of men's best, most difficult and most creative efforts. (Bowen, p. 127)

About March 1, 1790, he wrote the following in a letter to Ezra Stiles, president of Yale, who had asked him his views on religion. His answer would indicate that he remained a Deist, not a Christian, to the end:

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble...." (Carl Van Doren. Benjamin Franklin. New York: The Viking Press, 1938, p. 777.)

He died just over a month later on April 17.

Deism

Certainly it is generally the case that these people believed in God, but it was not the God of Christianity. Deism began in the eighteenth century and was very popular in America. According to the dictionary, it was "a system of thought advocating natural religion based on human reason rather than revelation."

Jefferson wrote that the religious doctrines of Jesus that he accepted, and which he regarded as consistent with his deistic perspective were three:
1. that there is one God, and he all-perfect:
2. that there is a future state of rewards and punishments
3. that to love God with all thy heart, and thy neighbor as thyself, is the sum of religion.

Why do Christians want the founding fathers to be Christians?

Is it because they wish the best for these people?

Hardly.

It is because they hope that by demonstrating they were Christians, they can justify their political agenda. Rather than wanting something new (the injection of Christianity into government) they seek to restore something they imagine has been lost.

Reality: nothing has been lost. It wasn't there to start with. Therefore the whole concept of "taking back America" is a lie. America was never Christian.

 

Well, flaman, I don't know what type of evangelist you are but practically your entire post above was clipped right from an atheist web site with a satanic logo. That site was designed by atheists to refute historical accuracy of our founding fathers and debunk fundamental Christianity. Ever hear of plagarism?


(Webmaster, please delete these links if they are offensive!)

http://www.geocities.com/atheistdivine

extension: http://www.geocities.com/atheistdivine/us.html

You have to get up pretty early in the morning to fool some of us. We are usually pretty good at spotting trolls and BTW, the atheists have been kicked off the Baptist Board for good reason. Keep your poison to yourself, please.

Every time I hear someone state that our Founding Fathers were not Christians, I really want to throw up! Talk about a history re-write!

http://www.christianamerica.com/foundingfathers/george_wash.htm

http://www.christianamerica.com/foundingfathers/ben_franklin.htm

I'm sure there are PLENTY more links out there to the writings & orations of our CHRISTIAN founding fathers than I have the time to search for right now but the above two quotes should be sufficient to put your atheistic non-factual, untruthful argument to a final grave.



[ July 05, 2002, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: EagleLives911 ]

 

GODLY MEN Eagle???

History tells us that on September 15, 1787, two days before the Founding Fathers signed the Constitution, they reveled in the creation of the new document. According to the National Constitution Center, the group's bar tab indicated that the Founding Fathers were still recovering from hangovers when they signed our founding document.
According the bill, the 55 people at the party drank 54 bottles of Madeira, 60 bottles of claret, 8 bottles of whiskey, 22 bottles of port, 8 bottles of cider, 12 bottles of beer, and 7 large bowls of spiked punch.
Of the 55 who attended the Constitutional Convention, only 39 actually signed the Constitution. Twelve of the men left early, and four refused to sign.
This harldy sounds Christian??

Christian leaders today know more than most, but are refusing to give us the full truth. They know: that this country was founded: by illuminists, and that these philosophers are still in power. Christians agreed with the coalition at first, but it wasn't until the 1820s that the deception was fully manifest and Christians began protesting by forming the Anti-Masonic party. Did you ever read about this in your history books? There are obscure copies of histories written by freemasons, (and well documented I might add), to break through the smokescreen of deception.

Largely the Masonic roots of these founding fathers: has been written out of our history books. There has been a clear attempt to deceive and misinform. By personally delving into Masonically written histories, and other historical sources, you will get a clearer picture of the depths of this deception.

Too often I have heard Christian believers downplay George Washington’s Masonic heritage in order to perpetuate the myth that brings them some kind of inner comfort. The threat of the revelation that we might be living in, (from the very foundation), in an anti-Christ culture, a Masonic experiment, a facilitator of globalist thought, is hard for the average Christian believer to swallow in one large dose.

I believe men like George Washington were men of great personal conviction and character. He took great personal risks to help lead the American Revolution. I believe that he was: influenced by the Bible and Christian thought, as was Thomas Jefferson. Yet, President Washington was not a disciple of Christ but a Deist. (Deism being a rational religious philosophy that acknowledged religious insight through reason, but denied specific revelation). It is a religion of the human mind. Being influenced by the bible and Christian thought does not make one a Christian ... or do you believe it does???

You can try to believe otherwise but the facts are not there. We should not substitute political power for Holy Ghost authority and miraculous power. Christian leaders have walked into the halls of Congress, literally a Masonic-ally dedicated temple, and made sworn political oaths with those in a counterfeit system. They come back, and interpret these oaths to us through their “family value” publications. We buy into this garbage hook line and sinker.

Did you know that the Republican Party gave us an all-freemason lineup for the 1996 election? Don't you care? Care enough to separate from it all?

Let us us get serious about things... let us focus on Christ.

 

Here is another petition:

http://www.millionsofamericans.com/clients/moa/current_project/index.cfm

 

Why the flap over the "one nation under God"? America is no longer a nation under God, babies are murdered before they have a chance to breath air, God is no longer allowed in schools, "shacking up" is now called "living togethr", divorce and remarriage is the norm. Hey, I'm not talking about the lost crowd here but many so called Baptists condone much of the above. When God is no longer the center of ones life, he can no longer bless. Read the book of Amos. It was because of the disobedeience of Isreal that God took them into captivity.

No America is no longer a nation under God, so let us be honest and admit as Christians we are failing to be the salt that preserves the nation.

RIGHTEOUS LIVING and OBEDIENCE TO GOD is what we need not petitions to an ungodly crowd.

One is not obedient when the primary purpose in life is to please the flesh.

Ernie

[ July 06, 2002, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: Ernie Brazee ]

 

Mr brazee,
Very well said. I have the Noah Websters 1828 dictionary. Not to be confused with the Websters dictionaries of today. Many of the definitions are based on the Bible instead of culture as todays dictionaries are.
Here is one: "Monogamous,a. Having one wife only and not permitted to marry a second."
Now, monogamy means having one sexual partner. Wow have things changed.

HCL

 

Teddy Roosevelt???

Time to learn some history!</font>[/QUOTE]Uh, uh, uh, is that all you've got to add to this subject? </font>[/QUOTE]No, but I just thought it was interesting to "quote" history and be so far off as to the personality involved. Honestly, I don't think you really want me weighing into this conversation, but here I go anyway...

Of course you seem to forget that the descendants of the Pilgrims persecuted anyone who did not agree with their interpretation of the Bible... including Baptists. Baptists were jailed for speaking against infant baptism and refusing to attend the Congregational Churches.

I find it amazing that you think this is a good idea... except I suspect you don't know your history. (By the way, don't trust most "Christian historians" like David Barton, Carman, Tim LaHaye and company. They tend to misquote -- David Barton is one of the worst here -- historic documents and put a very strange spin on things.

Use of the Bible does not necessarily make one Christian or a government correct. I suggest you get out your history book and check my facts below:

The Pilgrims did not write the Constitution. They came long before the Constitution (the political founding of this country) was written. In fact their persecution of Baptists and anyone else who dissented from the Congregational Church inspired many people to push for institutional separation of church and state in the Constitution.

Probably most people in the country had sympathy toward Christendom when the Constitution was written, but did you notice that the Constitution is essentially a secular document? No mention of God and only a statement that there shall be "no religious test" for someone to hold office. Then we have the First Amendment which guarantees that the church will keep its hands off of government and government will keep its hands off of the church (institutional separation of church and state). Baptists have historically held to institutional separation of church and state because they see it as the political method of ensuring the New Testament principle of religious liberty. Baptists like John Leland and Isaac Backus were instrumental in the development of the First Amendment. Contrary to popular opinion, the metaphor of a "wall of separation between church and state" was inspired by Roger Williams, Baptist and founder of Rhode Island (the first colony that had complete religious freedom). He wrote that there should be a "hedge" separating church and state. When Jefferson wrote his famous letter to the Danbury Baptist Association to remind them that he was still fully committed to religious liberty, he made the allusion to Roger Williams' statement with his wall metaphor.

Yes it made good rhetoric, but did not reveal much truth.

 

You seem to forget that many, many Bible-believing Christians (most Baptists throughout history as well) have demanded institutional separation of church and state guaranteeing religious liberty for everyone, including atheists. We believe that *GOD* calls us to this position, because God has created us to come to Him freely -- without the interference of the state.

Lots of people are morons... Don't take the words of one self-professed atheist and understand them to be the agenda of everyone who disagrees with your position.

Very true. Just as long as we don't use the power of the government to create a captive audience or encourage or force people to practice some sort of piety.

Don't get overdramatic. Upholding institutional separation of church and state is not persecution -- at actually prevents persecution from all other religious groups, including atheists.

 

Yeah, that's a lousy site and not a good thing to do... but that aside, are the things said on the website true? I think so.

Many *were* Christians, but that does not mean that they necessarily were against institutional separation of church and state.

http://www.christianamerica.com/foundingfathers/ben_franklin.htm
[/QB][/QUOTE]

This quote is true, but it's interesting that what happened next is rarely mentioned... *Franklin was ignored*

They did not pray.

Not atheist... Baptist Christian.
Not unfactual... factual.
Not untruthful... truthful.
Not my argument... but I agree with it.

 

I am new here. Why does this thread get closed at three pages? Doesn't that turn everything into a debate instead of a discussion? Also, because I didn't know space was limited, I took the time to answer post and thereby unintentionally took away the opportunity for others to participate.

Just confused... Could you enlighten me?


[ July 08, 2002, 12:25 AM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]

 

Do you have any reputable links to prove this outlandish statement?

Oh, and are we supposed to believe the Founding Fathers had some diabolical Masonic plot when the Constitution and Bill of Rights were constructed? That George Washington had some ulterior Masonic motive? Spare us.

Lousy? Since when does a Christian Evangelist use Atheist Satanic Links to try and prove a point? Besides that, this is supposed to be BAPTIST ONLY section. I note Mr. so-called Evangelist doesn't list a denomination on his profile? I think he is an athiest troll.

In fact, I am starting to think both of you are trolls.

 

Do you have any reputable links to prove this outlandish statement?</font>[/QUOTE]Just read any history of the founding of Rhode Island. Roger Williams (a Baptist) did not agree with John Cotton (the pastor of the Congregational Church in the Massachusetts Bay Colony) and they tried to arrest the troublemaker and send him back to England. He escaped to the area around Rhode Island and eventually purchased the land and started the colony. Also, read about the religious life of Massachusetts Bay Colony -- Baptists were jailed and beaten for preaching against infant baptism and worshiping contrary to the Congregational Church.

This is not obscure history... I'll try to locate some links when I get back from work this evening.

Uh, no. Where are you getting this?

Lousy? Since when does a Christian Evangelist use Atheist Satanic Links to try and prove a point? [/QB][/QUOTE]

You completely missed my point. I *don't* think it is a good thing to plagarize, but the history that he presented is accurate... Recognizing that it is true does not turn you into a Atheistic Satanist (?).

I have no idea...

Not true here. I've been a believer for 23 years and am thoroughly Baptist.

 

I agree with you Baptist Believer. The Puritans came to America to have religious freedom for themselves but not necessarily for everyone else. Baptist espoused Religious freedom for all. Roger Williams gave refuge to heretics in the colony of Rhode Island because of his opposition to the State imposed religion of the New England Puritans. He did not endorse the theology of heretics and even debated them and seeking to win them but he understood you cannot legislate morality or Christianity upon people. This got our ancestors in trouble in England with the State Church in that Baptists preached against State imposed religion and demanded Religious liberty for all ..including heretics, realizing that it is only the Holy Spirit who can change hearts and not the Government.

Here is a message of Roger Williams in the 1600's that gives you a taste of early Baptist thought on this issue,

A PLEA FOR RELIGIOUS LIBERTY

[ July 08, 2002, 09:43 AM: Message edited by: Kiffin ]