MMF - Calvinism in CCM

TJAcorn · Oct 4, 2001

I don't know about you but I have found more and more sound Calvinistic doctrines in modern Christian.

An example would be Caedmon's Call with their songs: Thankful, Prove Me Wrong, There You Go, Where I Began, and many more. Also the group Jolly Napier (becoming popular among college students like me) has produced songs that have some great doctrine in them. Everybody needs to read their work "not so simple things" (Jolly Napier) Here's some of the lyrics from "worthy of You"

what can I say? | what can I do? |
what can I give that makes me worthy of You?|
weeping at the feet of this Man of flawlessness |
surely He's noticed me; probably knows my lawlessness |
might as well break my life and pour it at His feet |
cause He's the only one who can help me
all I can say | all I can do |
all I can give isn't good enough for You |
I need You
nothing I can say (it's only what You say) |
nothing I can do (it's only what You do) |
nothing I can give (it's only the grace You give that makes me)|
worthy of You

My generation has become so sick of the fast food/non-controversial pop culture that has been called "CCM". The praise songs we sing lack any real content and our worship is based primaraly on emotion (especially old-fashioned baptist churches with their 20 stanzas of "Just as I am" - emotionally drawing people to a non-biblical altar call)

Anyhow, I am very thankful to see a new demand for deep music and for non-pop remakes of old hymns (like "Indelible Grace" Grassrootsmusic )

"Often we will use twentieth-century (or 21st now) art forms, but we must be careful to keep them from destorting the world-view which is distinctively ours as Christians" -Francis A. Shaeffer Art and the Bible

So, what do you think? I think there needs to be a reform in our music. We should not seek to imitate the world but to influence it through superior message and music

Trevor

As a side note. I think J.R.R. Tolkien's books "The Lord of the Rings" is an example of a superior Christian work (that is, a work done from a Christian-World view) It is a work that has influenced the secular world for good. Our music should be simular. It doesn't have to be a tract. It should be US. It should be a superior work of art.

[ October 04, 2001: Message edited by: TJAcorn ]

[ September 09, 2002, 12:23 AM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

myreflection26 · Oct 4, 2001

well from reading prior posts of mine this should not knock you or anyone else over in shock, but I disagree with ya.

So by saying "Calvanistic" what do you mean?
The words you placed on your post to that song sound actually very good, I for one am impressed with it.

I have found the praise and worship songs to be improved upon a great deal and have enjoyed hearing them. I guess I'm not completely sure of what it is you find fault with, maybe if you could clearify it I can have a better understanding.

Sue

DHK · Oct 4, 2001

Calvinist?? How about humanistic as a more accurate term? I see nothing in this song that gives praise to Jesus Christ. I see nothing in this song that would give any hint of salvation through Christ alone. What I do see is that this song could be sung to "Ram," or "Bramha," or the Hindus, or "Allah," of the Muslims, or any one of the many gods of the false religions. The "god" of this song is not defined. It is one of the most shallow songs I have read, and very typical of CCM.
DHK

[ October 04, 2001: Message edited by: DHK ]

Brother Adam · Oct 4, 2001

Then go do something about it and stop your whining.

TJAcorn · Oct 4, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by DHK:
Calvinist?? How about humanistic as a more accurate term? I see nothing in this song that gives praise to Jesus Christ. I see nothing in this song that would give any hint of salvation through Christ alone.
[ October 04, 2001: Message edited by: DHK ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This song in particular is ment for Christians. It is not ment to be a tract! These words can only be understand by someone who has some grasp of Grace. Let me explain how this song gives "a hint of salvation through Christ alone".

"nothing I can say (it's only what You say) |
nothing I can do (it's only what You do) |
nothing I can give (it's only the grace You give that makes me)|
worthy of You"

This is a song for Christians so it's assumed that the listener believes in the orthodox belief of Sola Christos. Also, from previous lyrics it is very simple to conclude that the subject of the song (You) refers to God (i.e. this is a praise song). Knowing this we see that in the above lyrics I quoted that there is nothing we can do, say, or give that makes us worthy of God. It is only what He says, does and gives to us that makes worthy of Him. This is one awesome truth given to us in scripture! This is far from humanistic! a humanist would say that he is somehow worthy of God by what he does or says or gives.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by DHK:
It is one of the most shallow songs I have read, and very typical of CCM<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shallow is very typical of CCM, I agree! but this song is not shallow, it's not really even CCM, at least how I think of it, because it is in a folk style and not a pop style. Many, many hymns are also very shallow, and many are not, but we must find those that exalt God and grab onto them.

Trevor

uhdum · Oct 4, 2001

I'll try to be kind. All i see is another far-fetched attempt to discredit anything that hasn't been done for fifty years. The Book of Esther does not mention God by name, but do we thow it out? No. There is some so-called "Christian music" that gets on my nerves, but we shouldn't throughout everything. Many of the choruses and praise and worship songs have beautiful words that praise God for who He is and help realize how we can't do anything to gain favor with Him. All we can do is believe in Him and praise Him for His mercy and goodness, not our own. The term "praise and worship" is almost a sin for some people; i've heard some preachers who said it spitefully and bitterly and talked about how much garbage it was (as if we aren't supposed to praise and worship God). From what I've seen, people don't like change and will find fault with anything that isn't a habit or customary. I preached at a church where the people weren't too happy when the song leader decided to do a hymn they hadn't done before. Whether CCM or hymns, people don't like change. Oh, might I ask why do people associate anything that's not hymns with "Christian rock"? Many of the CCM is not rock; i mean this with no offense to anyone so please don't take offense, but this accusation is USUALLY (not in all cases) a lack of investigation and research by people who are so biased and legalistic that they think God will pat them on the back for singing "the old, faithful, biblical hymns" and putting away the "new, worldly praise and worship garbage." If people would just worry about worshipping God and about what He wants (mercy and obedience) rather than about what He doesn't want, we would truly praise Him and worship Him in our churches. And, sadly, even with new songs being sung in churches, the people still won't worship if their hearts aren't right.

God bless

TJAcorn · Oct 4, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
So by saying "Calvanistic" what do you mean?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Basically I mean that the content of the message agree's primarily with these two truths:
1. That man is TOTALLY depraved in his present state (of sin) , UNABLE to do anything of himself to change that state (Romans 3:10-12)
2. That God of HIS OWN WILL chose to save some for HIS GLORY instead of destroying everybody, which would have been right, fair, and just (Romans 9:16-23).

That's what I mean by "Calvinistic"

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by myreflection26:
I have found the praise and worship songs to be improved upon a great deal and have enjoyed hearing them. I guess I'm not completely sure of what it is you find fault with, maybe if you could clearify it I can have a better understanding.

Sue<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am also finding that praise and worship songs are being improved slightly. However we need to draw a distinction between our Worship and our Casual music selection. Songs for worship should flatter God. They are for Him not for what He can do for us. Therefore I think most CCM should not be used for worship (and I'm speaking of our corporate worship). I also think that to flatter God with our P&W the songs we sing should be full of truth, more than just the basics. Although most P&W is not "wrong" or "unbiblical" but just not very deep. Examples :
"You are worth of my praise" - good song but speaks of what "I" will do for God.
"Every Move I Make" - more of what we do. "I could sing of Your love forever" - Ok song but speaks alot about we will do.
"I've found Jesus" - the lyrics make it sound as if by our own searching we have found Christ instead of Him seeking us out. And there are many more.

Songs for casual enjoyment don't have to be P&W music but I think that as a "general rule" we should seek to deepen our thoughts of God. The music we listen to, books we read, movies we watch should help us do this. However, most often CCM doesn't come close to this. And yet I can show and good selection that does - especially some new releases.

I think this rule is not hard and fast for every circumstance. I have no problem with turning up some "punk-rock" (POD) while I clean my room. It fits the situation and God has created us to enjoy upbeat music - it just doesn't fit when it comes to worshiping Him.

I hope this helps deconfuse some of your confusion!

TJAcorn · Oct 4, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by uhdum:
The Book of Esther does not mention God by name, but do we thow it out? No. There is some so-called "Christian music" that gets on my nerves, but we shouldn't throughout everything. Many of the choruses and praise and worship songs have beautiful words that praise God for who He is and help realize how we can't do anything to gain favor with Him. All we can do is believe in Him and praise Him for His mercy and goodness, not our own. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What a great post! I so agree with the above and everything else you wrote.

Trevor

superdave · Oct 8, 2001

Wow, that was good. Here is some more

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Many of the CCM is not rock; i mean this with no offense to anyone so please don't take offense, but this accusation is USUALLY (not in all cases) a lack of investigation and research by people who are so biased and legalistic that they think God will pat them on the back for singing "the old, faithful, biblical hymns" and putting away the "new, worldly praise and worship garbage." If people would just worry about worshipping God and about what He wants (mercy and obedience) rather than about what He doesn't want, we would truly praise Him and worship Him in our churches. And, sadly, even with new songs being sung in churches, the people still won't worship if their hearts aren't right. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen and Amen

Aaron · Oct 8, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by uhdum:
If people would just worry about worshipping God and about what He wants (mercy and obedience) rather than about what He doesn't want, we would truly praise Him and worship Him in our churches. And, sadly, even with new songs being sung in churches, the people still won't worship if their hearts aren't right.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sadly, that was not the attitude of those who steamrolled the popular culture into the church. If, indeed, they wanted God truly praised and worshipped in church they would not have insisted on their rights and trampled the consciences of Christ's sheep.

And, indeed, if this was such a little matter, why the disdain for using a musical style that everyone can agree on?

No, the attitude from the beginning was one of pride and rebellion.

TJAcorn · Oct 15, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Aaron:

Sadly, that was not the attitude of those who steamrolled the popular culture into the church. If, indeed, they wanted God truly praised and worshipped in church they would not have insisted on their rights and trampled the consciences of Christ's sheep.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And how is it that you knew their attitude? it came because that is what people wanted - it wasn't some elite group who forced it into the ears of Christ's sheep.

Praise and Worship in general is not as theologically deep as most old hymns. However, hymns that came out of the revivalism/second great awakening tend to be even worse than modern P&W IMHO. But just because old hymns are "deeper" than P&W doesn't make P&W unacceptable or inappropriate.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Aaron:

And, indeed, if this was such a little matter, why the disdain for using a musical style that everyone can agree on?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

THE REASON FOR THE "DISDAIN FOR A MUSICAL STYLE THAT EVERYONE CAN AGREE ON"

1) we have not "arrived" at perfection

Cultures change, people change, languages change (but thankfully God does not). Therefore, I make this statement, Our form of worship should change with our culture but not due to our culture. That might take me awhile to explain exactly but we'll see how it goes.

2. Everyone doesn't agree

Honestly, many people don't consider hymns sung in the typical old fashioned, tent meetin', revivalism style a medium for God honoring worship.

3. Everyone once agreed that chants where the only true musical style acceptable for worship.

Why the disdain for old fashioned chants?
Sadly, those who steamrolled the revivalism hymn style into the church wanted a change from the old style.If, indeed, they wanted God truly praised and worshipped in church they would not have insisted on their rights and trampled the consciences of Christ's sheep.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
No, the attitude from the beginning was one of pride and rebellion.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree - the attitude was a desire to "get back to the heart of worship" and worship from the heart in simple praise. The question is if that should be our purpose.

Trevor

myreflection26 · Oct 15, 2001

It's not possible to have a style of music everyone will agree on, every person's taste is different and unless you go to a church where they have a traditional service and contemperary service or everyone who agrees with ccm goes to a church that plays ccm or if anyone who disagrees with ccm goes to a church that plays only traditional you won't have everyone happy.

Sue

donnA · Oct 17, 2001

I have noticed that many of the old hymns in the hymnal is calvinistic. So wheres the difference?

Dr. Bob · Oct 17, 2001

Calvinistic doctrine - man the sinner, God the sovereign. We are nothing, can do nothing, will be nothing apart from His grace.

Such are the themes of many great Christian hymns. Most of the froth that passes for CCM is Arminian at best, Charismatic or cultic at worst. The exception proves the rule.

TJ posted lyrics from one CCM song (I don't know it but take his word for it) that IS Calvinistic. Praise the Lord for that. But is this a "trend" in CCM? I think not.

CCM has been used to glorify the flesh and to introduce some very false doctrine to the church, and that, my friends, is bothersome to me.

Just my opinion.

Brother Adam · Oct 17, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
Such are the themes of many great Christian hymns. Most of the froth that passes for CCM is Arminian at best, Charismatic or cultic at worst. The exception proves the rule.

CCM has been used to glorify the flesh and to introduce some very false doctrine to the church, and that, my friends, is bothersome to me.

Just my opinion.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OH PUHLEAZE!

And how much of it is taken out of context of what the author is intending the song to be used for or the lyrics to mean?

Also I think we need to remember that most musicians are not theologians or Bible scholars. Most are out there doing there best to glorify God in their music. Perhaps they don't have perfect doctrine that lines up with your exact interpertational beliefs, but they are out there serving and loving the Lord with their whole hearts, mind, and strength- and that is the first and greatest commandment.

Until Next Post, Adam

[ October 17, 2001: Message edited by: flyfree432 ]

TJAcorn · Oct 17, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by flyfree432:

OH PUHLEAZE!

And how much of it is taken out of context of what the author is intending the song to be used for or the lyrics to mean?

Also I think we need to remember that most musicians are not theologians or Bible scholars. Most are out there doing there best to glorify God in their music. Perhaps they don't have perfect doctrine that lines up with your exact interpertational beliefs, but they are out there serving and loving the Lord with their whole hearts, mind, and strength- and that is the first and greatest commandment.

Until Next Post, Adam

[ October 17, 2001: Message edited by: flyfree432 ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BUT due to the huge audience that the writers have they should have serious concern for the lyrics they write. They might not be Bible scholars but they should know it better than the average Christian Joe.

However, I know that some people will believe differently than I and have good reasons for doing so. The problem I see is a lack of concern in general for sound doctrine in lyrics.

Trevor

TJAcorn · Oct 17, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
TJ posted lyrics from one CCM song (I don't know it but take his word for it) that IS Calvinistic. Praise the Lord for that. But is this a "trend" in CCM? I think not.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is definitely NOT the trend in CCM, it is also not the trend in most "old fashioned" baptist hymnals. However, it is true that older hymns in general are more calvinistic and doctrinally sound than almost all of CCM.

My point to this thread is not that All CCM is now worth listening too because it has finally adopted right lyrics but that there is more good music coming out (especially at the college scene) that I think Christians can honestly enjoy and not be ashamed of.

I am anti-mainstream CCM because it is musical junk with bad theology but I do not throw out all CCM

Trevor

Bands to look for that are good
Jill Phillips
Sandra McCracken
Andrew Peterson
Clear
Kemper Crabb
Jolly Napier
Caedmon's Call
Indelible Grace I&II -VERY GOOD!
Innocence Mission
Bebo Norman
The Pool Boys
Chris Rice
Shane Barnard
Waterdeep
Rich Mullins

[ October 17, 2001: Message edited by: TJAcorn ]

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