Who is the Author of Sin - Micro refutation of Calvinism

TheRadicalOne · Sep 3, 2002

According to Calvinists everything that happens in this world has been pre-ordained or foreordained by God in eternity. If that is true, they make God guilty for Sin and the Author of it. (Blasphemy)

Please answer my Calvinist friend: Does God allow my Sin or He ordains it?

russell55 · Sep 3, 2002

He allowed sin for a reason. He ordained the redemption of mankind before the foundation of the world, and sin is necessary to His plan for redemption.

KenH · Sep 3, 2002

Originally posted by TheRadicalOne:
According to Calvinists everything that happens in this world has been pre-ordained or foreordained by God in eternity. If that is true, they make God guilty for Sin and the Author of it. (Blasphemy)

The posts in this forum are getting downright ludicrous. If a smiley face was available on this board that puked, I would insert it here.

Christian regards,

Ken
A Spurgeonite

Primitive Baptist · Sep 3, 2002

The Primitive Baptists believe in the doctrines of grace but do not believe in absolute predestination, that is, God foreordained everything that comes to pass. I, like you, believe that would make God the author of sin. Calvinists who hold to absolute predestination will deny this, but that is the ultimate conclusion. God suffered you to do it, they say, but in His secret will He wanted you to. That is stupid. I mean, how do they know? If it is the SECRET will, that means we do not know what it is! DUH!

hrhema · Sep 3, 2002

Calvinists take the term foreknowledge and created a doctrine of pre-destination out of it.

Christ slained from the foundation of the World.
So if we take it the way the Calvinist believe Christ died twice. Once before the foundation of the world and once again at Calvary.

They ignore scriptures which refute their doctrine such as God is not willing that ANY =

hrhema · Sep 3, 2002

oops hit the enter button by accident.

God is not willing that ANY should perish and that ALL should come to repentance. Does not mean tht all will do so.

Jesus said that if he was lifted up from the Earth he would draw ALL MEN unto him. Doesn't sound like pre-destination to me.

John 3 says that For God so loved the World that he gave his only begotten son so that WHOEVER SHALL BELIEVE in him. This does not sound like pre-destination.

russell55 · Sep 3, 2002

Christ slained from the foundation of the World.
So if we take it the way the Calvinist believe Christ died twice. Once before the foundation of the world and once again at Calvary.

Huh?????

TheRadicalOne · Sep 3, 2002

Let's dig a little more. In Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." (KJV). According to Calvinism, everybody is doing God's will. That's why using their philosophy and confronting it to the Word of God, they have to conclude that everybody is goingt to enter the kingdom of heaven. Romans 8:14 is in the same category. Have you ever considered this my dear Calvinist friend?

rlvaughn · Sep 3, 2002

Originally posted by TheRadicalOne:
According to Calvinists everything that happens in this world has been pre-ordained or foreordained by God in eternity. If that is true, they make God guilty for Sin and the Author of it.

"According to non-Calvinists God created Adam knowing he would sin. If that is true, they make God guilty of sin and the author of it." It would be just as well for me to say the above to any who believe that God created the world with the foreknowledge that Adam would sin. God was responsible because He knew exactly what would happen. But if we stay with the Scriptures, which never charge God as being the author of sin, then we don't have to play semantical games about whether certain beliefs makes God the author of sin. He just isn't!

Please answer my Calvinist friend: Does God allow my Sin or He ordains it?

God determined by His own sovereign choice to create a world in which sin would exist. Therefore, He evidently both allowed and ordained sin. This is not equivalent to saying that God twisted Adam's arm and forced him to sin. God determined by His own sovereign choice to allow you and I to live and breathe and sin. Therefore, He evidently both allowed and ordained it. But God does not ordain my sin in any sense of making me do it. I, as a fallen creature, operating according to my nature, will commit sin.

If you put a cow in a fenced pasture with green grass on the other side, that cow will try to get to the green grass. That is her nature. God doesn't force every cow to try to get to the green grass, but He from eternity decreed a creation in which such an animal with such a nature would exist. So did God from eternity decree that such creatures as you and I, with sinful natures, would also exist. Does that make Him the author of sin? I think not.

rlvaughn · Sep 3, 2002

Originally posted by TheRadicalOne:
...According to Calvinism, everybody is doing God's will...Have you ever considered this my dear Calvinist friend?

Yes, I have considered it. Your statement is just not a fair representation of what 99% of "Calvinists" believe.

russell55 · Sep 3, 2002

According to Calvinism, everybody is doing God's will.

There is a sense in which that is true even for those who hold the Arminian position. Hence the largely Arminian term "permissive will"--events that God decides to permit (or allow) to happen, even though they go against His commands.

It is only in this same sort of "allowing" sense that the vast majority of Calvinists would say that anything sinful is ever God's will, although we may not use the term "permissive will".

[ September 03, 2002, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]

TheRadicalOne · Sep 3, 2002

Russel:

By no means Sin is God's will. And I am not an Arminian, I am a Bible Believing Baptist.

Let's see what the Bible says: Jeremiah 19:5 "They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind." Here is stated that God didn't command that to happen. (Was not His will)

Please look at the Scriptures without going to consult to John Gill's commentaries, and explain that to me.

Tiger Fan · Sep 3, 2002

Originally posted by TheRadicalOne:
Please answer my Calvinist friend: Does God allow my Sin or He ordains it?

The greatest sin ever committed was the murder of the most righteous man to ever live. According to Acts 4:27,28 it was all ordained by God.

Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

So you tell me, Did God ordain the sin of the murder of Jesus or did he just allow it?

Also, you ever heard of a man by the name of Joseph?

ForumChaplain · Sep 3, 2002

Originally posted by russell55:
He allowed sin for a reason. He ordained the redemption of mankind before the foundation of the world, and sin is necessary to His plan for redemption.

Without sin, he would not need a plan of redemption. So, does he bring in sin so he can have one...

ForumChaplain · Sep 3, 2002

Originally posted by Tiger Fan:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by TheRadicalOne:
Please answer my Calvinist friend: Does God allow my Sin or He ordains it?

The greatest sin ever committed was the murder of the most righteous man to ever live. According to Acts 4:27,28 it was all ordained by God.

Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

So you tell me, Did God ordain the sin of the murder of Jesus or did he just allow it?

Also, you ever heard of a man by the name of Joseph?[/QUOTE]Christ was not murdered... To murder is an unlawful taking of life. Christ was killed. Which is sin only under certain circumstances...

russell55 · Sep 3, 2002

Let's see what the Bible says: Jeremiah 19:5 "They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind." Here is stated that God didn't command that to happen. (Was not His will)

Of course He didn't command it to happen. And it was only in rebelliousness to God's commands that it did happen. There is no way in which God was active in this happening.

But did He know is was going to happen before it happened or not? Is He powerful enough to have prevented it from happening or not? All the term "permissive will" means is that God saw it coming and made a decision to let it happen.

You know, even the Bible uses the words "God's will" in different ways to mean different things. First of all, it uses the term in the way you are using it in your post, to mean the things God commands us to do.

But what does it mean when it says that "no one can thwart His will"? "God's will" as used there is obviously not God's commands, because people thwart God's commands all the time. What do you think "God's will" means in this case?

ForumChaplain · Sep 3, 2002

Originally posted by russell55:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> According to Calvinism, everybody is doing God's will.

There is a sense in which that is true even for those who hold the Arminian position. Hence the largely Arminian term "permissive will"--events that God decides to permit (or allow) to happen, even though they go against His commands.

It is only in this same sort of "allowing" sense that the vast majority of Calvinists would say that anything sinful is ever God's will, although we may not use the term "permissive will".[/QUOTE]God's permissive will is his merciful response to our petitions.

God reluctantly tolerates sin so that it can be totally destroyed... Wiped out of his creation both in heaven and on earth.

TheRadicalOne · Sep 3, 2002

Tiger:

I believe He allowed it.

The Meaning of To Determine:

"intend, purpose, propose
have in mind, have in view, have an eye to, contemplate, think of
study, meditate
reckon on, calculate, look for,
foresee the necessity of,
have a mind to, mean to, really mean, have every intention,
have a purpose, harbor a design
resolve, determine, premeditate,
project, design, plan for,
take on oneself, shoulder,
engage,
threaten to,
intend for, destine for,
mark down for, earmark,
hold for, put aside for, keep for, reserve for
intend for oneself (see AIM AT)"

So, according to what you understand for "determine", those who killed Jesus Christ were doing God's will. Did they enter the kingdom of God? (Matthew 7:21)

God sent his son knowing he was going to be killed. That doesn't make God guilty for that, but the people of Israel (and us included). Allowing Christ to come to this world was determined in eternity. The Holy Spirit was not moving Judas Iscariot to betray Christ, was He?, the Holy Spirit was not moving those who hit and spit Christ, was He?, the Holy Spirit was not moving those who nailed the nails in Christ's body, was He?.

You didn't answer my question but avoided it. Does God allow my sin or ordains it?

What Joseph are you talking about, please specify and don't run from the subject.

TheRadicalOne · Sep 3, 2002

Originally posted by russell55:

But what does it mean when it says that "no one can thwart His will"? "God's will" as used there is obviously not God's commands, because people thwart God's commands all the time. What do you think "God's will" means in this case?

Click to expand...

I don't find the phrase "thwart His Will", in my King James Bible, please tell me what verse are you talking about, and I will respond in its context. But I perceive you are talking about Romans 9. Favorite among calvinists. Please specify.

Russell, your answer for Jeremiah 19:5 is very weak didn't even contemplate the last part of the verse. God said that those things didn't come to his mind. Respond to that please.

pinoybaptist · Sep 3, 2002

Originally by Chappie:

Christ was not murdered... To murder is an unlawful taking of life.

Murder. A premeditated act of taking away of another life. There is a plan. There is motive. There is connivance. There is execution of the plan.
The plan: to take the life of Jesus by accusing him of blasphemy. Thus they had two false witnesses who testified in their favor against Jesus. Then they also had Judas who identified Jesus for 30 measly pieces of silver. Then they boxed Pilate into a corner by threatening to report him to Ceasar if he did not pass sentence.
The motive: fear that Rome will intensify its occupation, thus the High Priest of that time said that it is better that one man die for the nation.
That, Chappie, is murder.

Who is the Author of Sin - Micro refutation of Calvinism

New Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

ForumChaplain

Guest

ForumChaplain

Guest

New Member

ForumChaplain

Guest

New Member

New Member

Active Member