Who is the Author of Sin - Micro refutation of Calvinism

1. Was the King of Assyria doing God's will when he want up against Israel?

Answer from the text:

I will send him against an ungodly nation...

Yes, it was God's will for the king to do what He did.

2. Did the king of Assyria know he was doing God's will?

Answer from the text:

Yet he does not means so, Nor does his heart think so...

No, the king did not know he was doing God's will. He thought was going up against God by going up against God's people.

Now, how can you say that there is no SECRET WILL in Isaiah 10?

The king of Assyria, out of an arrogant heart and an evil need for more and more power, goes up against God's people, something God punishes Him for when things are all finished.

....when the Lord has performed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, He will say, "I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyra, and the glory of his haughty looks."

And yet, in this whole deal, the king is only an unwitting tool in God's hands.

Shall the ax boast itself against him who chops with it? Or shall the saw exalt itself against him who saws with it? As if a rod could wield itself against those who lift it up...

If this isn't God's secret will, then what sort of will is it? It was an evil thing the king did, worthy of God's punishment, so it certainly can't be something God TOLD him to do, or something that the Holy Spirit moved him to do. But nonetheless, if you take the text seriously, what the king did was certainly God's will in SOME way. I think the term "secret will" is probably as good a term as any to describe this sort of event: when God works a good end through the evil acts of men.

[ September 06, 2002, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]

 

Really? If Assyria's acts weren't sinful, then why did God punish them?

(Of course, for God, none of this was sin, because He was bringing about perfect ends through this all--the judgment of the sin in the nation Israel, and then the judgment of the evil nation Assyria. God was bringing about what is right using evil acts of men.)

[ September 06, 2002, 07:55 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]

 

And you may want to read your bible. The murder of Jesus, which is a sin, was ordained by God. It was His will. read Acts 4:27-28

And how can you say that Assyria wasn't accomplishing the will of God in Isaiah 10? they were doing the will of God and sinning at the same time.

 

I don't attribute any evil acts to God, and neither did Calvin. All I said is that God allows evil acts for a reason, and it is that sense, and that sense only, that any evil act can be called God's will.

It is in this sense that it was God's will for the Assyrians to go up against Israel: God allowed Assyria to go ahead with it's evil act for a good reason--the judgment of wickedness in Israel.

If you don't think that God allows evil acts for His own good purposes, then you either don't believe God can know evil acts before they come, or believe God is not powerful enough to prevent them, or that he is disinterested in human affairs (He sees the bad acts coming but doesn't care enough to prevent them), or that He is capricious or arbitrary (He sometimes allows evil to play out, and sometimes prevents it, but hasn't good reason for allowing it one time and disallowing it the next.) Those are your only alternatives. If you object so strongly to God allowing evil for a reason, then which of these alternatives do you hold to?

 

1) So you are calling the gospel a mess. How sad.

2) You posted on another thread: "For me Finney was as heretic as Spurgeon. So I have no problem in learing from both."

So, are you saying that Calvin was a heretic in the same way as Finney and Spurgeon? Or are you saying that Calvin was a heretic but not Finney and Spurgeon?

And, since I am curious as you have evidently taken over the position as the "Keeper of Orthodoxy" , do you regard all who believe in the doctrines of God's grace as heretics?

Christian regards,

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

How can "Unconditional Election" be considered a doctrine of grace? If the doctrine were true God would be damning the majority of humanity at His own will and choice. He would be saving only the 'few' [Matt. 7:14d] because of His sovereign choice. I, for one, vote this concept as a disgrace rather than attributing such action to His loving grace. Even if you say 'realitively few.' . . .

 

Ray,

Man damns himself, not God. Man damns himself, not God. Man damns himself, not God. Got it?

There is nothing in us that God sees that would cause Him to save us except for His unconditional love of us. You do agree, right?

If you agree that there is nothing in us that would cause God to save us, then it must be unconditional on God's part, right?

I think I see now, it appears to me that non-Calvinists are teaching that once man, of his own "free will" repents and believes, then God is obligated to save him. Therefore, the non-Calvinist sees nothing unconditonal in election.

Years ago I heard a Church of Christ teacher say something basically like the above - that once a person heard, believed, repented, confessed Christ, was baptized, and lived a faithful Christian life, that God is obligated to save him.

That is why I see non-Calvinists as teaching that man saves himself conditionally, rather than God saving man unconditionally.

Christian regards,

Ken
A Spurgeonite

[ September 08, 2002, 08:50 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

If the love is not given to all men, then the love must be conditional on something. Even if God elects some, that love is conditional to some degree. For you to say that God loves men unconditionally, it MUST apply to all men equally.

 

Ken said in regards to The Radical One:

Keeper of Orthodoxy that is a good one on the New Kid On The Block!... Ken has 801 Posts... I have 2,564 and you have 29!... I'm scratching my head!... I've been here in this forum for over one year!... Am I missing something?... Maybe you need to check out our complete post past and present and the archives too... The Radical One you have some catching up to do! ... Brother Glen

[ September 09, 2002, 04:32 AM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

Scott,

Do you love all people equally? Does God require of you that you love all people equally?

Unconditional refers to the fact that there is nothing in the person or about the person or done by the person that would cause God to save him.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

Ken said:

Amazing Grace how sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost but now I'm found
Was blind but now I see!... If the Primitive Baptist Church had an alma mater this would without a doubt be ours!... Brother Glen

 

Radical,

Let me bring you up to date. Ray believes most people will be damned to hell. I, as a Spurgeonite, believe most people will be in heaven.

Christian regards,

Ken

[ September 09, 2002, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

Radical,

Didn't you call Calvinism a mess earlier in this thread? Calvinism is an understanding of how the gospel works. To call Calvinism a mess is, in essence, to call the gospel of God's free grace a mess, in my honest opinion.

John Calvin taught the doctrines of God's free grace, as did Augustine, as did the apostle Paul.

Christian regards,

Ken
A Spurgeonite